Bushcraft for Scouts, help please.
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I've just become a Scout leader and after 1 week indoors I was dropped in at the deep-end with a camp. I introduced them all to knives, axes, firelighting, wood collection, sawing, cooking marsh mellows and all except my own son had never done any of those things. I don't say that to be smug just because it was shocking, one lad's Grandad had told him about sawing branches and undercutting first etc, but that was all.
I was please to read SimonM's list and glad I pitched it right. It was worrying a dozen or so near teens with a couple of axes mine as the Scout's ones were blunt and the shaft broke.
It was brilliant and really satisfying to see them all scamper around collecting tinder etc to light fires with a steel (I was a bit surprised when asked where do I get dry grass from!!!!!
) so I can't wait to get back next term and get them sharpeninh knives.Actually looking at knives - any views/opinions/rants/diatribes about the Hultafors Safety knife as I want them all to have their own (left safely at the hut in the week) to take responsibility for it -
" This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless." replacing rifle with knife.
Thanks for the suggestions and ideas above the group I'm part of will benefit from the experience and wisdom, all I have to do is claim all the glory
Thanks
Jules
@JulesC
Probably as I am in the middle of the countryside nearly all my scouts have there own knives. So I'm getting them to bring them in on a particular night so I can check them over and sharpen them up a bit as most are blunt as a round bar. As all our Scouts need to do a induction for use with Knives, Saws and Axes before there allowed to use them a camps/meetings, so Me and the other leaders can make sure that know that they know what they are using and how correctly. Most safety knives leave the point off and the round the end many task become difficult, think about using Mora series of knives as there cheap and very well made.
Craig.
Probably as I am in the middle of the countryside nearly all my scouts have there own knives. So I'm getting them to bring them in on a particular night so I can check them over and sharpen them up a bit as most are blunt as a round bar. As all our Scouts need to do a induction for use with Knives, Saws and Axes before there allowed to use them a camps/meetings, so Me and the other leaders can make sure that know that they know what they are using and how correctly. Most safety knives leave the point off and the round the end many task become difficult, think about using Mora series of knives as there cheap and very well made.
Craig.
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I've never used the Hultafors but wanted a similar knife at a cheap price for my group. We used these: http://www.clasohlson.co.uk/Product/Product.aspx?id=164787999. (hope that link works - and hope I'm not breaking any forum rules, sure the Mods will let me know if I am, the usual caveat applies - no affiliation or connection, just happy with the price and product - other knives are available from all good stockists!!). They are not safety knives as they don't have the rounded point, but to be honest I've never seen a Scout do themselves mischief with the point, they always slice themselves with the edge (but sharp knives leave very neat cuts that heal quickly, luckily!).
Silentbob & Craig,
Thanks, good point about sharp cuts are cleaner and heal faster. I want to do the knife handling, safe space stuff with them first too. It is risky but when will they learn if not in a safe environment respect for the knife as a tool and care for it strikes me as a good way of teaching respect and ownership and responsibility and a few nicks/cuts will teach them faster than me saying "NOW BE CAREFULL".
I liked the hammock camp that the 1st Middleton did, we're doing the same thing later this year (not sure if they'd stand the double decker - I camped in my hammock on the recent camp and they thought I was one step up from Stig of the Dump but a little bit weird and quite interesting too, so my son fluctuated between mortified and Yeh my Dads quite cool!
I'll keep you up to date and if I get any flashes of inspiration I'll pass them on - thanks for the link (other vendors are available - to save the mods any trouble).
Jules
Thanks, good point about sharp cuts are cleaner and heal faster. I want to do the knife handling, safe space stuff with them first too. It is risky but when will they learn if not in a safe environment respect for the knife as a tool and care for it strikes me as a good way of teaching respect and ownership and responsibility and a few nicks/cuts will teach them faster than me saying "NOW BE CAREFULL".
I liked the hammock camp that the 1st Middleton did, we're doing the same thing later this year (not sure if they'd stand the double decker - I camped in my hammock on the recent camp and they thought I was one step up from Stig of the Dump but a little bit weird and quite interesting too, so my son fluctuated between mortified and Yeh my Dads quite cool!
I'll keep you up to date and if I get any flashes of inspiration I'll pass them on - thanks for the link (other vendors are available - to save the mods any trouble).
Jules
Silentbob & Craig,
I got the Mora knives and this week we started to use them, just practice cuts in the hut and (hesays whilst touching a large lump of wood) we had no injuries. I've allocated them each a numbered knife and they maintain that knife, I wrote a knife promise and they all had to sign it and then off we went. Quietest session any of the other leaders have heard, almost silence apart from the odd question for an hour. Another couple of sessions and they'll be allowed them at camp in November, when we also do the hammocks. Can't wait, I'm sure I'm enjoying this more than the Scouts!
Jules
I got the Mora knives and this week we started to use them, just practice cuts in the hut and (hesays whilst touching a large lump of wood) we had no injuries. I've allocated them each a numbered knife and they maintain that knife, I wrote a knife promise and they all had to sign it and then off we went. Quietest session any of the other leaders have heard, almost silence apart from the odd question for an hour. Another couple of sessions and they'll be allowed them at camp in November, when we also do the hammocks. Can't wait, I'm sure I'm enjoying this more than the Scouts!
Jules
We are off to run the district bushcraft/survival camp in a weeks time- over a weekend. Draft programme includes for : a friday night 3km hike into the wood, Brief on survival priorities, lessons on setting up a basha, fire lighting refresher, spend the night under tarps/in hammocks. Saturday- knife/axe/saw lesson, each patrol lights their fire, cooks their breakfast and gets some bannocks baking in biscuit tins (for lunch). Workshops on Location (including building signal fires), water collection/purification, preparing rabbits (for their evening meal), natural shelter building, evening meal of rabbit stew and baked potatoes, real life survival tales around the fire, popcorn, evening session on alternative fire lighting and making of charcloth, Saturday night in their natural shelters. Sunday morning get fires going again, breakfast cooked, patrol competition to light their signal fires, workshops on snaring, spoon carving, prepping pigeons. Pigeon stir fry for lunch. Strike camp and hike out.
It's a rough format we have done over the past 8 or so years with a good deal of success. To be honest, it is orientated towards the survival side of things, although we all know the crossover. The short hike in makes them think about the amount of kit they pack, and helps the location feel nice and remote. It’s usually a fun but very leader intensive weekend- this year we have 17 Explorers signed up.
It's a rough format we have done over the past 8 or so years with a good deal of success. To be honest, it is orientated towards the survival side of things, although we all know the crossover. The short hike in makes them think about the amount of kit they pack, and helps the location feel nice and remote. It’s usually a fun but very leader intensive weekend- this year we have 17 Explorers signed up.
Silentbob & Craig,
I got the Mora knives and this week we started to use them, just practice cuts in the hut and (hesays whilst touching a large lump of wood) we had no injuries. I've allocated them each a numbered knife and they maintain that knife, I wrote a knife promise and they all had to sign it and then off we went. Quietest session any of the other leaders have heard, almost silence apart from the odd question for an hour. Another couple of sessions and they'll be allowed them at camp in November, when we also do the hammocks. Can't wait, I'm sure I'm enjoying this more than the Scouts!
Jules
I'm pretty sure I enjoy things more than the Scouts a lot of the time too! I like the idea of the knife promise - might have to steal that. Glad your sessions were so well received.
Sounds like a fantastic event. Would you be able to post a few pics when you get back?
I'll try to, definitely! Trouble is, i usually get so immersed into the running of these things that i completely forget to take photos, or even eat and drink. I first realise that i haven't had anything to drink all day about 8pm in the evening when i suddenly get floored by the mother of all headaches!
Glad it went well. I like the idea of the knife promise as well, I read on escouts that one leader gives out laminated card for the knife,axe & saw training(like a drivers licence). If they abuse the privilege he cuts it in half and they then have to go through a refresher. I'm going to implement this as this gives us some thing else to hand out as well as badges.
Craig.
Craig.
I'd heard something along those lines too except this group cut a corner off the laminated card for each episode of bad behaviour - lose all 4 corners and you have to earn your knife permit again. If I remember corrrectly the loss of a corner was for any general behaviour (not related to use of sharps) deemed to be serious enough to deserve this forfeit. However, bad or stupid behaviour related to knives/axes/saws earned an instant cut in half and loss of permit as you describe.
This is what I use with my Guides
http://freepdfhosting.com/98fa5b600b.pdf
We laminate them and they have to keep it with them. We renew the safety training and the card once a year.
http://freepdfhosting.com/98fa5b600b.pdf
We laminate them and they have to keep it with them. We renew the safety training and the card once a year.
interesting points to be had here. i like the knife wielding license. mmmhh....
incidentally, even though the clas ohlsen moras are excellent. the hultafors can be had for a wee bit more, but they're a much better product. the sheath is much, much more secure, and the blade is thicker. i have seen a scout break a mora without abusing it. i bought mora quicksnaps for my troop, because they're also that little bit thicker. if i'd been able to get the hultafors for less than a fiver delivered, i'd have bought them instead.
http://www.heinnie.com/Knives/Hultafors/c-1-92-913/
eta: i wouldn't bother getting the safety knives for scouts, a good pointy point is a must have on a bushcraft knife. the safety knives might be worth while for smaller ones.
cheers, and.
incidentally, even though the clas ohlsen moras are excellent. the hultafors can be had for a wee bit more, but they're a much better product. the sheath is much, much more secure, and the blade is thicker. i have seen a scout break a mora without abusing it. i bought mora quicksnaps for my troop, because they're also that little bit thicker. if i'd been able to get the hultafors for less than a fiver delivered, i'd have bought them instead.
http://www.heinnie.com/Knives/Hultafors/c-1-92-913/
eta: i wouldn't bother getting the safety knives for scouts, a good pointy point is a must have on a bushcraft knife. the safety knives might be worth while for smaller ones.
cheers, and.
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That sounds superb. We're attempting something similar with a group of Scouts (less intense). I'm going to borrow your biscuit tin bannock idea as we're going to be using my dutch oven for stew (I suggested rabbit......some girls fainted!) as we were low on cooking "tins". Also like the idea of seperate fires, that'll teach them to listen to me if they get cold because they didn't concentrate!
I've asked them all to learn a ghost story and then tell it as the camp fire dies down and they then have to find their hammocks in the dark mmwwwaaahhhahahahah!!!!!
Jules
I've asked them all to learn a ghost story and then tell it as the camp fire dies down and they then have to find their hammocks in the dark mmwwwaaahhhahahahah!!!!!
Jules
I've put up a website www.newboldscouts.com having seen the 1st middleton's superb affair. On the documents page is the knife promise. I'll take the promise bit and laminate those and then as you say cut off corners although I did tell my lot we weren't adopting a three strikes policy it is ZERO tollerance. Perhaps I'm being too draconian, that said 90% have never used a knife before and we had no injuries and they now really want to make Christmas presents later in the year with their knives! Seems to be well received.
When we do our hammock camp I'll try to remember to get photos and post them on our site too.
Jules
When we do our hammock camp I'll try to remember to get photos and post them on our site too.
Jules
Bob,
Forgot to mention I "borrowed" your kitlist from your website to save re-inventing the wheel - feel free to borrow anything back....
Jules
Vicky,
I like those ideas especially the refresher and keep it with you, the only suggestion I'd make is that counterintuitively a fixed bladed knife is safer than a pocket (folding) knife. As a kid I had the knife collapse on my hand a few times resulting in some nasty cuts and removing my hand from the pinch point only worsened it.
I'm three weeks in to Scout leader-ing and we do have some variation in the control / wisdom / nouse / emotional stability / within our troop (as I guess does everyone) and we've not had an incident - yet and that is with these
http://www.axminster.co.uk/mora-utility-knife-prod22072/ (other retailers are avalaible just this picture is good).
We're having a survival camp and they'll be issued with their knives for some parts of the weekend so make bow-drill/tent pegs/try-sticks etc.
Jules
I like those ideas especially the refresher and keep it with you, the only suggestion I'd make is that counterintuitively a fixed bladed knife is safer than a pocket (folding) knife. As a kid I had the knife collapse on my hand a few times resulting in some nasty cuts and removing my hand from the pinch point only worsened it.
I'm three weeks in to Scout leader-ing and we do have some variation in the control / wisdom / nouse / emotional stability / within our troop (as I guess does everyone) and we've not had an incident - yet and that is with these
http://www.axminster.co.uk/mora-utility-knife-prod22072/ (other retailers are avalaible just this picture is good).
We're having a survival camp and they'll be issued with their knives for some parts of the weekend so make bow-drill/tent pegs/try-sticks etc.
Jules
Ok, well, the weekend was fantastic- both in terms of the weather, and the stuff we got achieved. I even managed to successfully demonstrate the use of a fire bow , hopefully the Explorers didn't see the surprise on my face when the thing actually worked for me! We pretty much stuck to the program as outlined in my above post.
Ok, a few photos as requested:
The morning after the friday night in hammocks under tarps (Friday night was a 2/3 km hike in, fire lighting refresher, and a lesson on tarps and hammocks):
There was a workshop on water collection and purification, and one on getting help, before lunch (bannock cooked in biscuit tins in their patrol fires); after which there was a rabbit prep demo:
Which they later put into practice:
Saturday afternoon was spent building natural shelters which they slept out in after their rabbit stew, and a workshop on alternative fire lighting (sorry- quite hard to see the shelter in this picture!):
Sunday morning there was a competition between each of the patrols to race to get their signal fires lit (constructed the previous day and night on raised tripods). The photo below was taken of the winning patrols fire 50 seconds after being told to light it- very impressive!:
The rest of the sunday morning was spent in two workshops- spoon carving and traps and snares. The traps and snare workshop showed them demo simple snares, sprung snares, platform snares, deadfall, and a spear trap. They then had a go carving trigger mechanisms, correctly locating, and setting snares themselves:
Lunch was pigeon stirfry with chilli, ginger and honey, with noodles- giving them just enough energy for the hike out!
All in all, a fantastic weekend, no serious injuries (one knife cut to a finger), and lots of contented Explorer Scouts and leaders.
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