Bushcraft course prices??

Nagual

Native
Jun 5, 2007
1,963
0
Argyll
That's a fair point firecrest, one of which the survival / bushcraft industry is aware of. without a recognised structure in place governed by some form of controlling body, it's quite hard to distinguish between what is being offered. The problem is that getting enough people together to agree on, say a code of practice never mind content and quality control is very hard. The Institute of Outdoor Learning has had meetings in the past regarding this, but it's a new field as it were they are feeling their way. not only that but how would you enforce such a thing? Ultimately you couldn't, it would be voluntary. Further more for the average customer, who may never of had any experience or knowledge of these courses before, would they know to look for some form of organisation membership?

I think that most Schools of survival would welcome such an endeavour, as it would set aside certain misgivings like the one you've mentioned, but the difficulty is making it happen in the first place. Another thought to consider is if such a control existed in the form of either an independent group or one that is self regulating, would no doubt cost something to set up and be a member of thus adding to the fees passed on to the customer?

Nag.
 

timboggle

Nomad
Nov 1, 2008
456
8
Hereford, UK
If one completes a bushcraft course, or even several, how is this provable as a qualification either nationally or internationally? Can I do several courses with some small company, lets make one up and call it `woodways` and then go to woodsmoke or woodlore and say "look ive done ten courses with these guys" it cost me thousands. are they still going to say "well this is useless we don't know what you know" Or is there an accredited standard to test you agaisnt?
lets face it ALL other outdoor persuits have this.


Valid point mate, but surely the best qualification in bushcraft survival skills you can have is that 'you' are happy in the knowledge that your skills are at a level to look after yourself, rather than the need to prove it to others.

I do see your point though mate
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
The corollary of any formalised qualification system is just that........you *have* to qualify, i.e. pass some sort of common testing system.

Attendance of a course is no validation of actual knowledge and skill gained.
Since each school is unique, why ought one accept the attendance certificate from another school when they have no idea of how well someone actually did on that course ?

Unless we want to see bushcraft laid out like Standard Grades and Highers and A levels...........

cheers,
Toddy
 

leon-1

Full Member
If a person persues the PADI courses then it is a qualification recognised by international diving standards all over the world and although different to british diving, the british standard BESAC or something knows where you stand on their level.

Things have changed a bit then. BSAC (British Sub Aqua Club) didn't recognise the PADI (Professional Association Of Diving Instructors) standard at all at one stage, after a while they did, but if you were PADI qualified on a BSAC course you would be asked to do a qualifying dive before so that you could be assessed.

If one completes a bushcraft course, or even several, how is this provable as a qualification either nationally or internationally? Can I do several courses with some small company, lets make one up and call it `woodways` and then go to woodsmoke or woodlore and say "look ive done ten courses with these guys" it cost me thousands. are they still going to say "well this is useless we don't know what you know" Or is there an accredited standard to test you agaisnt?
lets face it ALL other outdoor persuits have this.

This is a question that some have tried to address, as far as instructors are concerned you can gain accreditation from Plumpton College to NCFE, this was an attempt to ensure that all instructors sang from a similar song sheet and had a good set of abilities. I believe that it was John Ryder who initially got this going.

Dave Watson of Woodland Survival Crafts set up courses where at the end you gain accreditation through OCNEMR (Open College Network East Midlands Region) which would be the equivalent of a GCSE.

I believe that there was an attempt to bring bushcraft knowledge and instruction under the wing of the NVQ side of life working through various grades from beginner upto instructor standard.

There are problems though with these standards as they don't always recognise experience and they don't neccesarily cover all aspects of bushcraft.

These qualifications could be classed as being basic apart from the NVQ which would have to have been proved over a period of time in a number of different aspects. All may have been worked for over a period of time, but it's like driving. You can be taught to pass the test or you can be taught to drive, there is a lot more involved in being able to drive.

Each school has their own standards, Woodlore, Woodland Survival Crafts, Bison Bushcraft, Bushcraft Expeditions, Survival School, Backwoods Survival, Woodsmoke, Footsteps of discovery, Dryad Bushcraft, Wildwise, Wild Live and Wholeland. Each school may hail from very different beginnings, either really having been taught on courses by their peers as a civilian or military or having just learnt over the years from friends and family or possibly a mixture.

This means that they will also instruct in a different manner and they will also instruct slightly different things in slightly different ways.

I had teachers at school who couldn't handle that I didn't do things in the expected way, they could handle that in Maths I didn't write out my workings out, I just used write the basic answer and the basic question. As far as they were concerned I was wrong. The answer was correct, but I was wrong nonetheless.

Now try equating that to bushcraft where there are so many ways of doing just one thing.

By setting basic standards you also start to kill off the diversity of methods and means of achieving a goal.

Either that or you have courses that do beginners of everything and then split the subject matter out into basic, advanced and instructor and to reach an instructor qualification you require to have achieved the advanced course in Water, Wild Foods, Shelter and Fire. If you then add bushcraft crafts and skills as added bonuses you all of a sudden have a lot of subject matter and many courses that will cost many hundreds / thousands of pounds to achieve.

The other thing is that any standard that was proposed would have to be set by someone totally independant of any School or by people that are selected from schools for their knowledge in a specialist subject by persons who are totally independant of any school or prejudice.

Nagual said:
I think that most Schools of survival would welcome such an endeavour, as it would set aside certain misgivings like the one you've mentioned, but the difficulty is making it happen in the first place. Another thought to consider is if such a control existed in the form of either an independent group or one that is self regulating, would no doubt cost something to set up and be a member of thus adding to the fees passed on to the customer?

Any independant legislative authority would require a payment to be part of it, courses would have to be assessed to insure that they have the required content for the level being instructed and that the level of instruction is what is required. Courses would infact become pretty much the same no matter who you went to.

In the long term this would probably bring down the insurance cost to the school, but it would add a considerable amount of courses to do and considerably more outlay by the customer.
 

Nagual

Native
Jun 5, 2007
1,963
0
Argyll
Unless we want to see bushcraft laid out like Standard Grades and Highers and A levels...........

cheers,
Toddy


That wouldn't work either. The amount of cheating, poor performance and general poor administration that [/i]can[/i] go on in our education system, at any level is staggering. I knew a nice enough lass that managed to pass her HNC in computing by essentially copying other peoples work. I wouldn't have a problem with that per se if she actually understood what she was copying, but she didn't. Yes her assesors should have noticed that and done something about it, but thats a different kettle of fish.

On a similar note, the difference in schools is truely amazing, even more so are colleges and universities. They all offer the same qualifications but the degree of knowledge that people gain can differer so much.

I can only imagine the headache it must be to even attempt to create a quality control system in the survival industry. Certainly there will be recognisable awards that any organisation can aim for like ISO recognistion etc, employment development awards etc which can show a certain level of competance for a company, but these things take time and aren't always straight forward.

Nag.
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,326
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Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
At the moment the way to get with a good bushcraft school is to ask around, there's a number that have proven time and time again that they can and do deliver both on content taught and exceptional teachers that make the whole experience a great one.

As for costs of courses they're very low compared to most courses that people would go, I know that they're a different kettle of fish from some but for first class tuition on subjects that you're interested in they have high value, as long as it's delivered. A good teacher will help individuals master skills and build confidence in that person.

The key thing is to do some research into the schools you're interested in and if you're not happy with what you've received bring it up with them and talk to them about it, for the most part they're professionals and will react well to a friendly conversation. You need to check that your expectations are set at the right level for the school and course that you're going to go on, if you're expectations are achieved or exceeded (as they often are) that's surely got to have good value :D
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,762
785
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Right then,my question is why are Bushcraft courses so expensive.

I know this will offend some on here as there seems to be quite a few pros,but it has to be asked ,because I for one dont understand it.

Weekend courses seem to start at £180 per person and most seem to be groups of six or even more.

You take almost all your kit with you to a forest or woodland ,very little seems to be supplied by the school other than their knowledge. Now I understand that everyone needs to earn a living but at the lower levels with six people that is £1080 with a lot of courses costing considerably more.

And all this in an unregulated industry.

Just seems a bit steep to me.
But Perhaps I am alone in this view.


GS

Just supposing that theres two instructors there, thats £540 per week each, less insurance (I bet the liability insurance is a killer as well) and tax.


It might well be only a weekend but they most likely struggle to find many people to fill the courses through the week and then they still end up not doing courses in winter.

You try getting a tradesman to work for that kind of money per week and see how far you get, doesn't seem too bad after you work that out.
Also bear in mind the fact that in order to be in a handy area for these courses that might end up living in a fairly expensive area to rent/buy.
 

william#

Settler
Sep 5, 2005
531
0
sussex
Just supposing that theres two instructors there, thats £540 per week each, less insurance (I bet the liability insurance is a killer as well) and tax.


It might well be only a weekend but they most likely struggle to find many people to fill the courses through the week and then they still end up not doing courses in winter.

You try getting a tradesman to work for that kind of money per week and see how far you get, doesn't seem too bad after you work that out.
Also bear in mind the fact that in order to be in a handy area for these courses that might end up living in a fairly expensive area to rent/buy.


the pay off being tradesman are often doing something they are not particularly loving to do everyday
the instructor gets to play in the woods that they love.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
4,810
S. Lanarkshire
Well, yes, but they still have to pay the bills unfortunately :(
I suppose *having* to work in the woods might actually spoil the pleasure for some.

cheers,
Toddy
 

BOD

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
If you start regulating bushcraft do people get in trouble if they use a non approved technique?

Do you have to cut away from yourself all the time? Or do you teach cutting towards yourself only at Bushcraft A levels.?

Diving is actually a good comparison why its not necessary or desirable. There are so many PADI and BSAC divers who are dangerous to dive with though generaaly BSAC are a bit better trained.

Only at the higher grades can you feel that you feel some confidence that a diver is probably okay but you still need to look at the log book.
 

firecrest

Full Member
Mar 16, 2008
2,496
4
uk
If you start regulating bushcraft do people get in trouble if they use a non approved technique?

Do you have to cut away from yourself all the time? Or do you teach cutting towards yourself only at Bushcraft A levels.?

Diving is actually a good comparison why its not necessary or desirable. There are so many PADI and BSAC divers who are dangerous to dive with though generaaly BSAC are a bit better trained.

Only at the higher grades can you feel that you feel some confidence that a diver is probably okay but you still need to look at the log book.

But it PADI or BSAC didnt exist, how well trained do you think your dive instructor will be? How can you tell and what can you compare him agaisnt as a newcomer?
 

Wallenstein

Settler
Feb 14, 2008
753
1
46
Warwickshire, UK
Diving has serious potential to go wrong.

Carving a spoon less so, I guess.

Apart from general "outdoor leadership" training - first aid, navigation etc - I can't see any need for certification in bushcraft.

I don't need a qualification to look at trees or make a small campfire?
 

leon-1

Full Member
the pay off being tradesman are often doing something they are not particularly loving to do everyday
the instructor gets to play in the woods that they love.

Try doing your hobby for a year to earn your keep, it soon looses it's lustre. It's still good when you are out and about with mates, but when the punters are there then all of a sudden it's work and it's a lot more serious.

But it PADI or BSAC didnt exist, how well trained do you think your dive instructor will be? How can you tell and what can you compare him agaisnt as a newcomer?

I think BOD's point was that these guys are trained and qualified by recognised authorities and in general their standards are not that high. The only thing that you would be able to compare against are either military / police or commercial divers and they have different standards.

Diving has serious potential to go wrong.

Carving a spoon less so, I guess.

Apart from general "outdoor leadership" training - first aid, navigation etc - I can't see any need for certification in bushcraft.

I don't need a qualification to look at trees or make a small campfire?

There is always potential for things to go wrong, that's why many of the schools start with the safe use of cutting tools or knife safety lectures and rules for behaviour around the fire ie; if you are going to retrieve the group kettle from above the fire there are gloves provided please use them.

I can honestly see where you're coming from firecrest, but by introducing legislation you will actually reduce the level that is currently out there at the moment.

There are lots of schools out there and if they aren't that good they will not last, it only takes three or four people from one course to post on here with a negative review and the chances are that your potential clientelle drops by 10,000.

How are you to know if the schools are any good, well the simple answer is ask, there are a lot of people on here that have done courses with schools. You could go to the Wilderness Gathering, in the end it's a showcase for a lot of the schools and you can make up your own mind who would suit you best.

You can get plenty of reccomendations for schools which have been going for a reasonable time (they're established), that have good reputations, working from the likes of Backwoods Bushcraft and Islay Bushcraft in Scotland (both of which are top notch) down through the country with Woodland Survival Crafts and Woodsmoke. Then in the Gloucestershire region you have Survival School and in Herefordshire you have Bushcraft Expeditions. South Wales has Dryad Bushcraft and Northern Ireland has Wild Live in the south east you have Bison Bushcraft and Woodlore, if you want bits of paper do the instructors course at Plumpton college, or go to Woodcraft School that was started by John Ryder. As you move down into the south west you have Wholeland in the Exeter area and WildWise in the Totnes / Dartington area and then finally you reach Cornwall and the Footsteps Of Discovery Team.

I have either attended courses with these guys or I have seen them in action or I have had them highly reccomended by people whose opinion I trust. I would be happy to spend money with any of these schools, but there are also new schools that are coming through with instructors that I know from other schools like Joe O' Leary at Wilderness Survival Skills and Joe is a damned good instructor.

In the end a lot of it comes down to trust, you trust what your mates tell you about a school or course and then you invest the money. What do you compare it with?

With me I compare it with everything I learnt as a lad, then what I have learnt as an adult in the forces, then what I have seen and learnt since I left the forces and then everything that I have read.

I have high benchmarks.
 

demographic

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 15, 2005
4,762
785
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the pay off being tradesman are often doing something they are not particularly loving to do everyday
the instructor gets to play in the woods that they love.

Not sure, I reckon if the instructor gets a few whiney students it might take the edge off the day a bit. and everyone has to pay the bills don't they.

I reckon their liability insurance will cost a hell of a lot more than the 67 quid I payed this year as a self employed carpenter as well.

It all adds up and before long those courses don't seem too expensive after all.
 

Gray

Full Member
Sep 18, 2008
2,091
10
Scouser living in Salford South UK
I put survival weekends on for friends etc and I've been thinking of turning it into a business. I've just had a quote of £350 for public liability. Land, have you ever tried renting land, well I have and it started at £200 per week,plus your fuel, food, wood for burning, salary, your helpers salary, waste disposal is a fortune for commercial ventures. £130 a pop seems reasonable to me
 

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