Bush classes on BcUSA.

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John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
21,811
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Pembrokeshire
I spent Sunday playing with fire in Holyrood park.....it was officially sanctioned, I was working for Historic Scotland's Ranger Service as part of Scottish Archaeology month.....in every way I could find evidence for use in the Iron Age, complete with a very wide range of tinder and kindling plants. Plants that I foraged for, or bartered with my friends for, in season, without any over exploitation of natural resources.

That's bushcraft :)
and I was joined by other members who came along to try, to show, to demo, too. That's bushcraft :D


The bcusa clearly talks of certificates of proficiency, John Fenna says he's finishing his basic and that the intermediate has been posted.....sorry, but that 'is' scout badges.

No offence to the scouts amongst us, I think you do a wonderful job, but I'm twenty five years past the time I want any involvement in scouting.

I don't have a military background, and I don't want one (again no offence intended, but military thinking does run to courses to be passed and wee patches to be worn)

I love the diversity of bushcrafting interests, the sheer range of abilities and environments, and I really wouldn't like to see that stiffled by some kind of social pressure on members to, 'Be all you can be!!!" and have the certificates (tags) to prove it. To fill some check list like Munro baggers who try to get through all of them, and do so seeing none. (The smart ones realise this and go back and do them all again, taking time to enjoy and relish each in it's own rich setting.)

Can't see how it can avoid the sleeveful of badges or the chest full of medal syndrome, tbh.

cheers,
Toddy
No argument at all :)
Bushcraft is a broad church and one persons fun is anothers CDO (a bit like OCD but you GOTTA have the letters in alphabetical order!)
I have fun playing on my own, with others, with structures, freeform and in large groupings like the Moot - as long as it is in the woods and I am having fun it is all good in my eyes! :)
Oh yeh - I was never a Scout - but I was a Scout Leader for 15 years so maybe that colours my thinking :D
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
35,696
1,777
S. Lanarkshire
Careful Mary you're defining what is 'officially' undefinable....As for badges etc... BCUK is happy to give away patches, stickers, leather fobs with the BCUK logo that say hey I'm part of a clan or I belong....Having a patch that says I've completed an online course in 'bushcraft' ( what ever that is) is not overly onerous...There are a lot of things that would need ironing out and a few fish hooks for BCUK to resolve but it's not a bad idea per se...
Nah, I wouldn't do that; it's waaaay to wide a topic to be tied down like that.
Your own previous posts demonstrate that you do think 'certification' is not a bad thing, so I think your bias is as inherant as mine.

Sorry, I'm giggling here, an online course in bushcraft and badges for it :) It's like Blue Peter :D
When does the sticky backed plastic come out ?

Either spend time rambling, or with friends, or go and do a reputable course....but none of them award virtual medals do they ?

Each to their own, it's a very broad kirk, but tieing it down into "Need To Know before you can be, or call yourself or have others call you, a Real Bushcrafter :rolleyes: no, I don't think so :)

I know I've got a BcUK patch, somewhere....not quite sure where, (I get more use out of the wee torch), I do know where the carved leather one that says Toddy that Eric made for me is though :D


cheers,
M
 
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johnboy

New Member
Oct 2, 2003
2,259
2
Hamilton NZ
www.facebook.com
Nah, I wouldn't do that; it's waaaay to wide a topic to be tied down like that.Your own previous posts demonstrate that you do think 'certification' is not a bad thing, so I think your bias is as inherant as mine.
Agreed I am biased when it comes to having well structured and well assessed and moderated certification when you want to operate commercially.However an online course be it on BCUSA or BCUK aimed at Joe blogs who wants to learn against a set syllabus for his own benefit and knowledge is a long way from that TBH...I don't think I'd liken it to Blue Peter either....Fundamentally if it was there say in it's own sub forum folk would either take part or not and it likely would not impinge that much on the other activity on the site... If it was structured correctly and folks were happy with the concept it could become a revenue stream for BCUK to assist with the ongoing operating costs...
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
35,696
1,777
S. Lanarkshire
The minute you say, "in it's own sub forum", you're starting a clique.
A clique with the sub voce but still implicit belief that the members of the aforementioned clique are 'doing it properly' :rolleyes: therefore the rest aren't.

Since that is patently false, the premise fails.

As for it raising revenue ?? How ??
Full members and Makers pay fees that help support the site, are you suggesting that folks pay to sit on line qualifications issued by bcuk ?? Who would administer such a thing ? who would verify such a thing ? would it be worth the paper it'd be written on ? because no school in the land would accept such a 'qualification'.
The schools don't accept certificates from any other school as acceptable admission to higher level courses; any from this kind of set up would be even less highly regarded.

Besides, it's back to proscribing what is bushcraft, and since that differs from one end of the country to the other, from one season to every other, it'd be effectively hobbling it.

As for your commercial certification; I know a lot of folks who run schools, and do so with both incredible skill and ability, and damned few have certificates :) but that's part of the real health of the craft; it's sheer diversity.
I don't want to see it reduced and limited, constrained, to provide a 'curriculum'.
And as for a correct curriculum for us, or even for beginners :rolleyes: buy a good book, get to a meet up, go for a walk with your eyes open, and just keep learning :D

cheers,
Toddy
 

johnboy

New Member
Oct 2, 2003
2,259
2
Hamilton NZ
www.facebook.com
Perhaps sub forum is the wrong way of defining it...

But if you post say on the kit chatter section or on the edged tools sections regularly I that a clique??

Is having a full members only area a clique? Are we as full members a clique or just folks who enjoy the site and want to support it?

I don't know...

There might be several ways of making some revenue from an online course..

For example, at one end of the spectrum you could write the course, administer it, issue certification and charge for it.. At the other end of the spectrum you could produce and charge for one of those 'blue peter' badges folk might like to buy.



I'm sure there are lots of folk out there running commercial BC courses who are exceptionally skilled and competent in doing what they do. Likewise there may be folk out there running commercial BC courses who are not competent and have poor skills. The issue is how can you tell who is who??

Certification for commercial provision in the UK may or may not be required in the future.. Currently it's not. Anyhow I think we both agree following an on line syllabus for simple enjoyment and personal skills development is a long way from that and is really what were discussing...

Personally I don't see what harm it can do?
 
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Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
35,696
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S. Lanarkshire
Back to the holier than thou bit. If there were no certification, no racking up the grades, no steps to 'bushcraft credentials', would we be having this discussion ?

Somehow I don't think the topic would have come up in this fashion.

Is full members a clique ? No, you pay your subs and you're in; we don't vet people for it, and while they are thanked, and appreciated :D for supporting the site, and allowed to sell on Members and Full Members Classifieds, etc., they aren't perceived as being better 'bushcrafters' than anyone else.

Define bushcraft ? Who among the online has that right ? It's too wide in it's scope, it's very laisse faire attitude is what genuinely appeals to most who participate :)
I certainly don't want it contained, constrained and certificated like a kid 'graduating' from nursery school.

Good bushcraft teachers gain reputation, and in doing so, high regard.
Heck of a lot of wannabe's with youtube experience out there though.
If something like this takes off then it'll end up needing a 'certificate' before we can pick brambles :rolleyes:


cheers,
M
 

johnboy

New Member
Oct 2, 2003
2,259
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Hamilton NZ
www.facebook.com
Mary

I thought your point was if an online Bushcraft class sub forum thingy was set up it would become a clique... Yet in theory folk could come and go from it and take part if they wanted no one is forcing anyone to take part no clique has developed it's just currently a supposition that a clique might develop and things go Nuclear isn't it?

I agree 'bushcraft' is an expansive topic and difficult to define.. But there are what you might call 'core skills' that we like to discuss and post on, fire making might be one for example, shelter building might be another one it might be reasonable that these core skills could for the basis of any syllabus...When you think about it apart from the difference in delivery online module v attending a course. Would the syllabus fundamentally be any different for a basic bush course..????
 
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Indoorsout

Settler
Apr 29, 2008
509
0
Brisbane, Australia
So... what's wrong with those who want to do the course doing it on BCUSA? Is it really necessary to do another one here, or is that just a case of "they have one so we should too"?
 

Martyn

New Member
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
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54
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
I agree with Mary, it'll just create a hierarchy whether you want it to or not. You'll end up with people lording it because they've completed x, y & z. It's meaningless. Bushcraft is essentially Live Action Role Play anyway ....minus the dungeons and dragons, but what use are badges? Does the Australian aborigine need to have so many before he can make a fire or hunt 'guanas? Does the Inuit need to achieve a seal hunting badge or an igloo building badge? Is that what it really boils down to, badges?

[video=youtube;gx6TBrfCW54]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx6TBrfCW54[/video]

If bushcraft is really just LARP'ing, status hunting and badge collection, then crack on, but you have to know you could also end up looking a bit of a nob with all your comedy badges. It reminds me of a porter I used to know who would join every organisation he could to collect the badge. He'd walk around with his tunic covered in em. If you asked him about em, he'd puff his chest out and proudly tell you what each one was for. He was a nice fella and harmless enough, but he did make himself look like a bit of a clown. Any badge you collect on an internet forum is completely worthless. Just be carefull how much chest-puffing you do off the back of 'em, or you'll fall foul of "Bill-the-porter-syndrome". ;)
 
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Retired Member southey

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jun 4, 2006
11,098
1
your house!
Why would any one think there would be any thought of it being a qualification of any kind? yes there would be a structure to it, what's wrong with having a set of skills to learn and practise, we could change the name to camp class(no feather boas though! unless that's your thing then cool) can you explain why it would be a clique? if there isn't a badge, if there isn't a qual, if there's no need or pressure to take part, we have sub forums already why would one specifically for learning al of a sudden create a clique?:)

Can we please leave any talk of badges and qualifications out, it isn't really relevant to this kind of thing, and as for the worry of forming cliques what about the groups small sections, focus on a subject, some you have to ask to join, do the people who chat in them treat any one else as lesser on here?:)


:)

Southey:)
 
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John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
21,811
1,285
63
Pembrokeshire
I agree with Mary, it'll just create a hierarchy whether you want it to or not. You'll end up with people lording it because they've completed x, y & z. It's meaningless. Bushcraft is essentially Live Action Role Play anyway ....minus the dungeons and dragons, but what use are badges? Does the Australian aborigine need to have so many before he can make a fire or hunt 'guanas? Does the Inuit need to achieve a seal hunting badge or an igloo building badge? Is that what it really boils down to, badges?

[video=youtube;gx6TBrfCW54]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx6TBrfCW54[/video]

If bushcraft is really just LARP'ing, status hunting and badge collection, then crack on, but you have to know you could also end up looking a bit of a nob with all your comedy badges. It reminds me of a porter I used to know who would join every organisation he could to collect the badge. He'd walk around with his tunic covered in em. If you asked him about em, he'd puff his chest out and proudly tell you what each one was for. He was a nice fella and harmless enough, but he did make himself look like a bit of a clown. Any badge you collect on an internet forum is completely worthless. Just be carefull how much chest-puffing you do off the back of 'em, or you'll fall foul of "Bill-the-porter-syndrome". ;)
I will never look at someone wearing a Woodlore badge in the same light ever again!
Wow!
All badge wearers are chest-puffin nob clowns?
Who-ed a thought it!
Puts Baden Powel in his place for sure!
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
35,696
1,777
S. Lanarkshire
You know the only folks who benefit when a hobby or skill set is listed/ certificated and regulated ?
The ones who administer the certification.

There is no need for any sub forums to pactice firelighting, shelterbuilding, navigation or campfire cooking, just add a thread in the relevant forum.

Or is that not 'special' enough ?

In an over paper qualificationed world bushcraft is a refreshing breath of fresh air, without overweaning 'better thans'.

A friend gave an very pertinant analogy on another forum; he said that now there are deerstalking certificates, and that almost without exception the enthusiasts are recreational stalkers with very little practical experience. They are now in the situation where stalkers of over forty years experience are being 'assessed' by paper-qualified individuals of very limited experience.
Ah but, there's money to be made from administering courses when your reputation isn't good enough to make a living from students or the job.

No, I don't want to see this set up become the norm, and comparing a woodlore course, with it's hands on personal experience, to an on line tick box is hardly a resonable comparison......or would you let someone pass your BCU courses sitting in a boat in their bathtub and taking short videos of their strokes, John ?

Off to spend the day spinning and dyeing in public......and the old ladies who taught me would be birling in their graves at the thought that this skillset might become 'certificated' too.
But some eejit will try it sooner or later :sigh:

cheers,
M