Burns in the woods

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,413
1,699
Cumbria
While there are likely to be some medics on here can I ask a slight off topic question about mountain first aid. If you are stuck on a crag waiting for evacuation with your colleagues (sorry I should say British mountains so really only hills to other nations). If one of them offers you some pain relief that is not available over the counter would you take it?? Reason I ask is I took something from a retired MRT member with 15 years experience and two 5litre tubs of first aid equipment in his sack!! Didn't feel pain after that but had to watch as two layers of large ambulance dressings fill with my blood. I think it was something like a strong kopake sort of thing. Codine based but stronger dose. Not sure I was feeling pain before it but certainly was glad of it when the MRT medic tried to take the dressings off one side of my hand to take a look. I guess pain was the body's way of telling me to puch his lights out!! :D Good job I'm a peaceful bloke.
 

Totumpole

Native
Jan 16, 2011
1,066
9
Cairns, Australia
I badly scalded my hand in an office accident a few months ago. I drove a short distance to the local minor injuries unit which happens to be part of the hospital that is one of the leading burns places in the country. They covered the scald with petroleum jelly soaked gauze (basically sterile Vaseline)
I was always taught in first aid not to apply any creams etc for anything but the most minor burn, otherwise once you get to hospital they would have to scrape the cream off first to inspect the burn- which sounds fairly unpleasant!

I think what you are referring to is Jelonet - you can pick it up online for your FAK if you want (and this reminds me I need to borrow some from work), probably not a bad idea if you do play with fire. You could even put this on broken/blistered skin as there would not be too much excess petroleum jelly left hanging around to be "scraped off". Also, it doesnt stick (if you simply stuck some gauze on it, it will stick to broken/bleeding/oozing wounds, and taking that off hurts!), this then some clean cling film is ideal. Most burns would have this type of dressing (jelonet) applied in the long run, until the underlying skin has healed or is amenable to skin grafts if that is what is required. Moisturisers come into play in the long run also to aid healing/reduce scarring.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter through and through
Jul 14, 2008
6,413
1,699
Cumbria
I guess the range of dressings available in hospitals is quite wide. I had some of that rubbery grid like stuff that looks like the matting you can get to stop things sliding around on your car dash. Apparently non-stick to wounds but bloody does. Also once out of A&E your local GP surgery never has anything as good. In fact I think the GP surgery put that mat on and the Hospital stuff was better. None of it is easily found in chemists on the high street. I guess speciality dressings are trade only or at least direct from companies or distributors not retail chemist shops.
 

Tadpole

Full Member
Nov 12, 2005
2,842
21
60
Bristol
When practicing first aid you have to remember your job is “first aid”, not to promote faster healing nor reducing scaring.
It’s simple cool, cover, hospital in that order. Cling film:- great stuff but only AFTER you’ve cooled the skin/burn. Cool with gently running water for ten minutes, wait two minutes and if the burn feels warm or the burn still hurt cool for ten more minutes, repeat until the burn no longer feels hot. Then and only then apply a loose cover (cling film, or if the wound is on the hand /foot a clean large plastic bag) always a burn larger than a thumb joint goes Hospital. (Their thumb joint not yours, it’s all about proportion, a child’s thumb is in proportion to that child) I’ve treated a dozen or so partial thickness burn and only on has scarred and that was because the person, an adult, refused to do more than run it under a cold tap for a few minutes.
 
E

ex member coconino

Guest
...
If out and you've no 'clean' water,remember and cover the burn with a waterproof barrier before cooling with the water you have.

Aren't there problems with this? Apart from it taking vital time to find a waterproof barrier, surely it will also slow down the cooling process and could anyway stick to the burn. Also, unless one has a sterile waterproof barrier immediately to hand, an improvised barrier is unlikely to be any cleaner than the water. The advice I was given on a course yesterday was that, assuming no further danger and no other injuries, the first priority of cooling overrides everything else.
 

Totumpole

Native
Jan 16, 2011
1,066
9
Cairns, Australia
I guess the range of dressings available in hospitals is quite wide. I had some of that rubbery grid like stuff that looks like the matting you can get to stop things sliding around on your car dash. Apparently non-stick to wounds but bloody does. Also once out of A&E your local GP surgery never has anything as good. In fact I think the GP surgery put that mat on and the Hospital stuff was better. None of it is easily found in chemists on the high street. I guess speciality dressings are trade only or at least direct from companies or distributors not retail chemist shops.


Google shopping is a wonderfull tool for finding all sorts of things.
http://www.millermedicalsupplies.co...jelonet-paraffin-gauze-dressing-5cm-x-5cm-x50
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
46
North Yorkshire, UK
P.S. Just for those of you wondering about burns classification. 1st degree burns (aka superficial) = redness of the skin, painfull (involve only the outer layer of skin - epidermis), 2nd degree burns (aka partial thickness) = redness, blistering, exudate (oozing fluid), PAINFULL (involve the epidermis and dermis), 3rd degree burns (aka full thickness) = white leathery appearence, painfull at edges but no sensation in affected area (all sking layers and some subcutaneous tissues affected), 4th degree burn (full thickness with injury to muscle) = describes burns so deep they involve underlying muscle.

Oh, that's interesting. I was told I had 2nd degree burns, but they actually match your description of 3rd degree (skin peeled off with gobbets of fat attached, but the burn sites weren't actually painful after the initial burn).

I'd like to emphasize to people that the burns I had were inflicted merely by a kettle of boiling water.
 

dwardo

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 30, 2006
6,463
492
47
Nr Chester
Just my 2 peneth worth but no one ever seems to cool long enough and then complain about blistering???
15 seconds under a lukewarm tap isnt going to cut it, i always say how long does cooked fat take to cool?
A cold beer works well too ;)
 

Ronnie

Settler
Oct 7, 2010
588
0
Highland
I guess the range of dressings available in hospitals is quite wide. I had some of that rubbery grid like stuff that looks like the matting you can get to stop things sliding around on your car dash. Apparently non-stick to wounds but bloody does. Also once out of A&E your local GP surgery never has anything as good. In fact I think the GP surgery put that mat on and the Hospital stuff was better. None of it is easily found in chemists on the high street. I guess speciality dressings are trade only or at least direct from companies or distributors not retail chemist shops.

It's called Mepitel. It's replaced Jelonet in many clinical areas.
 

Stirling3749

Member
Jan 30, 2011
25
0
BC, Canada
An old kitchen trick to stem the pain of minor burns is to just tick your hand in flour. The idea is to block off the exposure to air so I guess that's why some folks have mentioned vaseline.
 

WanderLust

Member
May 11, 2011
23
0
US
Hi all....new to forum and made a few posts in other threads.... a quick background on myself for purposes of medical background....
I served in the US Army for 8 1/2 years as a combat medic, have multiple deployments and have treated a diverse group of patients. My forte is obviously field trauma medicine, however I did work in the US Army's burn trauma center for several months while undergoing other medical training. I have had to treat different kinds of burns ranging from blast injuries, chemical, boiling water, burns from JP8 ( jet fuel) that ignited on someone. The advice I will be giving is based upon the fact that most people here have been posting under the scenario that they are in the wilderness. With that said there will be govt implemented standards of quality pre hospital care that are assumed, or disregarded for a survival situation.

In training we are taught about body surface area- BSA and how to calculate it percentage wise, this is great for describing to someone who hasnt seen the patient for themselves how much of the body is damaged due to burns. Rather a waste of time if the person is in front of you... if you want more info on BSA I will be glad to share on it later on.

1st deg burns for all intensive purposes are a minor annoyance, the meat and potatoes comes in the differing levels of damage and pain from 2nd and 3rd deg
Since I'm assuming that most reading are hear to get quick advice on how to help a friend or loved one in an emergency I will not go into a whole lot of depth describing each difference between degrees of burns.... also if the person/s are wearing jewelry in the affected area, you may want to remove it, as burnt flesh tends to swell...think of hot dogs in the microwave, if left on has a potential to cause an amputation.

K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple, Stupid

2nd-moderate depth of burn, most recognizable by the blistering that occurs post burn
A. Severe enough that the bodys thermodynamics will have difficulty in regulating core temperature

3rd-' full thickness burn' will be noticable because the skin will look like a burnt steak
A. If a hospital is not in the immediate future great care must be taken in treatment, as well as given to the patient

Here's the tricky part... for every doctor you find that will tell you that dry sterile dressing are the best, you cand find just as many to say moist sterile dressings are the best.... in survival you must make the call, I myself am a proponent of wet dressings. There are a few emergency ways to go about this.

1. Buy petroleum impregnated gauze online
2. Go to a drug store and by either 2x2" or 4x4" gauze pads and white petroleum, and fill a container with the petroleum and let the gauze soak in it
3. In a pinch lip balm will work and some cloth if you do not have a first aid kit with you

The skin is the organ of the body that helps to prevent infections and to help regulate thermodynamics, with this protective barrier gone/damaged the body is now very prone to hypothermia and infection.... the more severe the burn, the more severe the risk of these are. The petroleum/neosporin/lip balm or whatever you use will help to create a water and airtight barrier against these outside threats. Not fool proof but better than a poke in the eye. Also burns get very dry and if non adhesive dressings are not available, this barrier helps to prevent further tissue damage/disruption.

If you are going to be ' stuck ' in this situation for a while you will also need a way to replenish the resources you have spent. IFAKS are great things to have, but the have very limited supplies in them, gauze will run out quickly. While not optimal, boiling a bandanna or it like will provide a fairly sterile wrap.

The other thing you must take into consideration, esp with more severe burns is hypothermia. Now burn patients are not only a high risk for infection, and they will 9/10 get one, hypothermia will kill them quicker. I have read posts on here that advocate the use of a lot of water, that's fine for minor burns, but for the more severe, you might want to reconsider.

Hypothermia is also a reason people argue to finite detail about dry vs wet dressings. the thought process is that if you cool them with wet dressings, you will kill them. this is when the big boy pants have to be put on and you have to make a conscious decision about what you are willing to do, and what you are willing to put the other person through.

the other thing not spoken about in these posts that I have read is the patients cooperation... They will be in a lot of pain and may not be still enough for you to help them properly without restraint, more likely the case for children. You may have to restrain them to help them. The amount of pain they experience is staggering, and pretty much nothing short of narcotics is going to help them. You will need to vigilantly assess and reassess while treating for shock.

If the burn is serious enough, even moving them to get them to help could put them into shock. If you can get them to a hospital, that's best, if not... my best advice is to keep them as clean, dry, warm, and comfortable enough until you are able to.

I hope this helps you out. I am no doctor and the advice given should be considered with a grain of salt. Most people who practice medicine may take issue with the advice I have given, because they more than likely have not been in a situation where they have had to provide care for seriously injured people for up to a week without the helps of special trucks and teams of nurses or doctors. I have...it is not fun, nor do I wish for any here to experience it first hand.
 

WanderLust

Member
May 11, 2011
23
0
US
A quick addendum... when areas like hands or feet are concerned, take care to wrap each digit (toe/finger) individually, if not them will knit together creating a mitten instead of a hand or foot. If the airway is damaged due to super heated air or smoke inhalation... may have to perform an emergency airway. If the genitalia are damaged (mainly below the belt) A lot of clever folding and packaging will be needed. Also this may have damaged the persons ability to urinate or defecate. If they are unable to do this, new problems arise in the form of sepsis and septic shock.
 

WanderLust

Member
May 11, 2011
23
0
US
Wow interesting and scary stuff.
I seriously hope I never have to remember your advice.

I hope you don't either, but burns can be fatal in the cuty too, everything will be amplified out in the bush on your own. But maybe the info provided in this thread will help you someday
 
May 16, 2011
244
1
36
Perth
One thing DONT wrap in a towel, i remember in a few years ago my neighbors son fell in a bath full of boiling hot water his mum was a nurse but panicked and wrapped him in a wet towel and he spent the new few weeks in hospital removing the fibers and getting skin graphs. so as said before wrap in clingfilm till you can get to a hospital. A thing to add to your kit
 

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