Billhook help..........

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Jack

Full Member
Oct 1, 2003
1,264
6
Dorset
Couple of nice hooks Jas and not a bad find.

Haven’t come across Kitchin before but perhaps the clue is the fact that it is Government issue and perhaps it was a one of order. This would be of interest to a collector. You aren’t doing anything wrong when you are using the hook, it is just the fact that you are using it for the wrong job.

The shape and the weight of the hook is design for snedding ( trimming of branches) up the sides of timber. The broad blade is designed to give you maximum power at the point where you will be cutting and that is about 1” – 2” back from the nose. These hooks are only really any good for that job and believe, you can cut through some wood with them but as you have found out, they aren’t any good for leverage work.


The Martindale that you have is also a rare hook, this company, like all good companies, was founded in the 1800’s and was based in the midlands. You have to be careful with the numbers on hooks as this quite often interpreted as the year of manufacturer, when in fact it is the stock/model number.


With regards to the Hook v Axe debate, I will let their owners speak for themselves, but in my opinion, the axe is the wrong tool for bushcraft. I believe that someone has picked up an axe and everyone else has followed without giving much thought to the functionality of an axe. An axe is design for a couple of tasks, felling timber, not wood and for splitting a log in half, period. What seems to be happening is that the bushcraft world is trying to get the axe to fit every purpose, but it won’t, because it can’t All you have to do, is look at any woodsmen tools. They may own an axe, but don’t know where it is. I can guarantee you that they will have at least 4 hooks and they know exactly where there are, they are right next to them. These humble, under rated tools have been the backbone of our ancient woodlands for thousands of years.

People are starting to see where the hook comes into play in bushcraft world and they are out selling all axes. I believe the reason for this is because people have thought that axe is the ‘ must have tool’ if you are a ‘bushcrafter’ but have soon realised that 9 times out of ten, it is a pain.

A hook becomes a part of you. Over the years, the handle mould into your hands and that is why woodsmen cuss and moan if they have to use someone else’s hook as it feel alien in the hand. I have seen grown men reduced to tears when they realise that their hooks have been stolen.


The axe is a fantastic tool for it’s job, but it is best left doing the job it was designed for. Wouldn’t you agree?
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Interesting to read your comments Jack

I expect you've seen the old billhooks site:-
http://www.billhooks.co.uk

I've seen most of the listed French patterns in France-either in boot sales or just hanging around peoples farms, and even still for sale new in farm supply shops and supermarkets. I wonder what influence the French may have had if any on the native English hook stlyes after they colonised us in 1066? :?: :wink:
I think they dug up some roman hooks and I think they pretty much the same as more recent ones.
I always think its sad when you go to some sale and see these great old tools that someone once paid out good money for and depended on for there livelihood, thrown in a old box. But its great to restore 'em to use again. :wink:

MR D :wave:
 

Roving Rich

Full Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,460
4
Nr Reading
the Billhook is a great tool for the Bushcrafter. I find it alot more useable for my bushcraft tasks than an Axe. For cleaving wood it is unrivalled. That means i can split a curved piece of wood for a spoon. With the aid of a block to chop on, you can overhang the hook or beak over one edge and chop finely. It is my prefered method for cleaving, then thinning a base board for the bow drill,(very difficult with an Axe !) aswell as putting a point on the spindle.
Another tecnique is choping into the side of a branch at 45 degrees, then prising it open along the grain, again impossible with an Axe. This is a basic skill of the hurdle maker, that Jack makes look far to easy.
I have pleached tress upto about 5 inches diameter in hedge laying with a hook, so it can fell small stuff.
I have also used a sharp hook as a draw knife, slicing fine ribbons off.
I have always been taught NEVER to wear gloves when using a billhook or axe, as the implement can slip from your hand. Jack insists that bare handed the woodsman can feel the grain and sap in the wood he is handling.
I take my hat off to him :notworthy
The billhooks major drawback IMO is its weight when carried. Though I know Jacks favoured hook and the ones he sells are about half the weight of my hedging hooks so may be OK.
I can only suggest you try one for yourselves and get the feel of em

Cheers
Rich
 

jason01

Need to contact Admin...
Oct 24, 2003
362
2
Terriffic, thanks Jack. That makes perfect sense and thats exactly what I wanted to know. The broadarrow marked hook is significantly thicker at the tip which also backs up what youre saying.

I dont have the Martindale yet, waiting anxiously for delivery :) I'll post some pics when it arrives.

Looks like I'll have to collect a few of them so that I can try the different weights and shapes ;)

Thanks for the tips on using the hook Rich, I did notice the hook makes a great draw knife!

Jason
 

jason01

Need to contact Admin...
Oct 24, 2003
362
2
My 2nd hook arrived today :) Its in a sorry state but will clean up nicely. Most interestingly it appears to be a laminated construction of 3 layers something like Trond's Scandi's and I think its a little lighter than the first one! Presumably iron or mild steel outer with a carbon steel core. The edge is also thinner though this may just be the result of years of clumsy sharpening.

Jason
 

jason01

Need to contact Admin...
Oct 24, 2003
362
2
Ed if youre using a hook as a spade do you use the spine to dig with? I would be loathe to use a painstakingly honed edge in soil?

Jason
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Yes I'd agree; youd have to be desperate to use your hook that way; wouldn't it be easier to use a spade?? :wink:
If you use it to cook (pancake) won't the steel get ruined?? :?:
wouldn't it be easier to use a pan?? :wink:
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
5,973
37
51
South Wales Valleys
If you use it to cook (pancake) won't the steel get ruined??
wouldn't it be easier to use a pan??
I don't cook on it, just use it as a utensil for flipping pancakes (gb mini does a good job of that too)

Ed if youre using a hook as a spade do you use the spine to dig with? I would be loathe to use a painstakingly honed edge in soil?
Yep, the rounded bit of the spine NOT the edge.... only to dig a small fire pit a few inches deep...... I too would be loathe to use a painstakingly honed edge.... thats why I don't.... My hook is sharp enough for the job, nothing more. It gets all the rough jobs, it get heavy use, it gets abused, but it stands up to it all..... all in all, a wonderful general woodsmans tool that has never let me down.

:)
Ed
 

Ed

Admin
Admin
Aug 27, 2003
5,973
37
51
South Wales Valleys
Most interestingly it appears to be a laminated construction of 3 layers
Why do you think this? If there is a line running down the edge, you may find that it is a peice of tool steel welded to the edge of a mild steel body.... many foundries did this to get more hooks per tool steel which is/was expensive compared to mild steel ;-) Have you got any pics?

Welcome to your new addiction of billhook collecting :wave:
:)
Ed
 

jason01

Need to contact Admin...
Oct 24, 2003
362
2
Ed said:
Why do you think this? If there is a line running down the edge, you may find that it is a peice of tool steel welded to the edge of a mild steel body.... many foundries did this to get more hooks per tool steel which is/was expensive compared to mild steel ;-) Have you got any pics?

Welcome to your new addiction of billhook collecting :wave:
:)
Ed

Ha! Dont tell SWMBO she already thinks I have too many addictions!

I'll sort some pics later, though dont know if I'll be able to show the laminations. Its definately not a carbon steel edge to a mild steel body though I know what you mean. I can clearly see three layers at the spine running all the way to the start of the bevel, an outer layer each side of a central slab. It would be an expensive and complicated way to make a simple billhook, interesting.....

I'll have more time to look at it later, I could be wrong, will all become clear once I have chance to start cleaning it up :)

Jack, have you ever seen this in a billhook?

J
 

jason01

Need to contact Admin...
Oct 24, 2003
362
2
Ok, Ive sussed it, had a proper look in daylight, still interesting but not what I thought. Its a one piece sandwich and edge (V shape) of high carb steel with a mild steel filling slipped in through a slit at the spine, a cost saving exercise!!! I wonder if its safe to grind that back edge flat, I dont want to delaminate it? Hope you can see it in the pics...

bills.jpg

spine.jpg

stamp.jpg
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
I still stick by my preference to wear kevlar/neoprene gloves. I've never cut myself at all (or anyone else), or had any slippages. :wink:
One thought Rich; you mentioned about letting the beak overhang the chopping block to fine-cut etc. To me that defeats the purpose of using the hook on a block (although as you know you can get some hooks with straight edge one side and curved beak the other) BUT I was thinking of the stock knives the cloggers use that are fixed at one end to get leverage for precision cutting. Maybe it could be possible to fix a loop of some sort (hazel withery or some cord??) that would fit over the top of a regular hook and hold it firm so you could manouver the blade in a similar sort of way, with the beak resting on the chopping block? Just a thought.
I can't agree with you Jack about axes only good for felling trees and splitting them in 1/2. I know you selling hooks and would like to see everyone use them, :wink: ,but I think too often folk think of an axe as a chopping tool only, when it can be an excellent slicing tool also. I mean the scandinavian boat builders used axe to scarf and shape oke planks. Medaevial carpenters used broad axes to slyce beams into "square", timber framers sometimes use axes to rough out tenons, you can use an axe to cut mortices, plenty of folk carve sculpture or boles with axes. Its not rocket science to learn how to use an axe with your hand around the blade the way a joiner holds a saw. It acts more like a plane and it is astonishing what you can do, including acurate cross cuts. Some axe's even have a little cut out space to get your hand nearer to the axe head.You should be able to shape a fire drilling base in about 30 seconds or even less. Its only a little flat board isnt it? or am I missing something? :wink:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Len Tabor in his book about woodland crafts recomends a nug axe (looks like a morticeing axe) to make hurdles, His preference too I reckon. Good luck with your restoration Jason. Those are both nice looking tools. :wink:

MR D :wave:
 

boaty

Nomad
Sep 29, 2003
344
0
58
Bradford, W. Yorks
www.comp.brad.ac.uk
Gotta agree with Mr D on this one - it is possible, and surprisingly easy, to do fine woodworking with an axe

I've got a Roselli all-around axe:

smaller-axe.jpg


(Felt a bit odd, being the only non-Gransfor owning person at the BCUK meetup :eek:):)

I made these scoopy-things, just with the axe and a crook-knife:

small-scoops.jpg


Haven't use a 'hook for 20 years, and then it wasn't for anything fine, so can't comment on what I could do with one (but if Jack wants to send me one so I can find out :roll: :eek:):)
 

Jack

Full Member
Oct 1, 2003
1,264
6
Dorset
[I can't agree with you Jack about axes only good for felling trees and splitting them in 1/2. I know you selling hooks and would like to see everyone use them, :wink: ,but I think too often folk think of an axe as a chopping tool only, when it can be an excellent slicing tool also. I mean the scandinavian boat builders used axe to scarf and shape oke planks. Medaevial carpenters used broad axes to slyce beams into "square", timber framers sometimes use axes to rough out tenons, you can use an axe to cut mortices, plenty of folk carve sculpture or boles with axes. Its not rocket science to learn how to use an axe with your hand around the blade the way a joiner holds a saw. It acts more like a plane and it is astonishing what you can do, including acurate cross cuts. Some axe's even have a little cut out space to get your hand nearer to the axe head.You should be able to shape a fire drilling base in about 30 seconds or even less. Its only a little flat board isnt it? or am I missing something? :wink:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure Len Tabor in his book about woodland crafts recomends a nug axe (looks like a morticeing axe) to make hurdles, His preference too I reckon. Good luck with your restoration Jason. Those are both nice looking tools. :wink:

MR D :wave:
MR D

I see the point that you are making and yes we do sell billhooks but if you take a closer look you will also see that we carry some well known axes as well, so I am not to concerned with who buys what. If I had my ‘Woodland Organics’ hat on then I would be saying buy axes, as they pretty much sell themselves. I am speaking with my ‘Jack Beckett’ hat on and talking from a woodsman’s point of view and experience.


Good point you made about axes being used by the highly skilled shipwrights and rightly so, however these are specialist trades and use tools that are really only strictly relevant to their trade. In my opinion, the most skilled worker of wood, is the wheelwright, his knowledge of wood and the tools used is outrageous but again the axes he uses are for his trade.

The point I am making is the fact the axe used by bushcrafters isn’t the best tool for the job. Having squared many logs with a broad axe I can safely say that the broad axe is only useful for hewing, period., the side axe is only good for side axe work etc etc. They are as many axe patterns, as there are hook patterns. If you take the Small Forest Axe for example, there is nothing ‘small’ about it, it is one hell of an axe. It has a 19” handle and over 3” inch face. I find that slightly over kill for normal bushcraft activities when the hook will do.

If I may, I will correct you, on the use of a nugging axe in hurdle making. I use a nugging axe everyday when hurdle making. There is also several other names for it as well and they are a knobby axe or a knobbing axe.

Actually, that aren’t axes at all, in fact they are all billhooks and the term I use is a snedding hook, they are all designed to remove the ends of your weave when you have finished your hurdle. My snedding hook is a least 107 years old.
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Thanks for your comments Jack
I dont wish to appear nit picky, but Mr Tabors nug axe was an axe-not a hook. Not unlike a viking axe with those extended bits that come down the sides of the haft, same width at back and bit. At the end of the day though, if its to trim hazel axe hook or saw what ever suits you is best. :wink:
One omission I felt was made by Mike Abott in his green woodworking book was no real mention of hooks. That book got me going with green wood, maybe if there'd been advise about hooks in it I'd use them more than I do now.
I used axes to carve several chair seats, finish with scorp etc. My drawknife, scorp, inshave were made for me by Brian Russell-one of the best smiths in the country.
What works best for each individual has to be best for them, especially if it develops their confidence. I just think to say an axe is't best tool, or a 'oook is't best tool is like saying fly fishing is't best way to fish, or flint and steel is't best way to start fire etc etc. :roll:
Touche, yes you do sell axes as well, and it is good to see a site where the person sellin't oooks uses 'em isselfe. :wink:
I got me a place in Normandy, and next year I'm acquiring some open barren land behind which I going to develop into a small wood/orchard type thing. A row of poplar or alder at'farr ennd, some ash (naturally) for tool handles, and of course apples and pears. Hoo Hoo as Homer Simpson says. I been talking to some locals (they know their wood, and were amazed I knew a bit too especially French names)and would get young trees locally, get advice about spacings etc. Is there any tips you could offer?? I will use my (French) hook to copice:wink: Mind I like the look of some of your'n on't webpages speshly that spar hook, never know few spare £££s.
Hey I expect you already know, but its good to see the timber harvesting in Normandy. It seems every coppiced stool as been watched closely, nothing random, they still keep it going (but increasingly with chainsaws not hooks). Most if not all old or retired farmers have there serpe up on a nail in there barne. Stacks of log for fires, bloody great okes and beeches, chestnut, elm etc You see piles of 8x8 12x12 oke beemes some fresh green others that were drying longer darkening brown, 2" bordes that have been drying years Burr ElmThey sned out kindling and "fagots" with a serpe. Wood to folk there is more than just B&Q softwood ply or mdf.
Good luck with your business and website etc
all the best

MR D :wink: :wave:
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Nice looking axe Boaty-I don't think I've seen them make afore. Big £££s??
I've never used an ullu knife (is it)-the lap or inuit tool; but I imagine it being similar inne yoose to a bearded axe like your'n, with the weight and control of yore hannde directly ovver't cuttin edge, plus-can you hook't haft under't arm for extra leverage?? Have you ever made boles orr platteres? :wink:

MR D :wave:
PS Stayed in a farm house in Normandy once and they had a cracking little hatchet to fix kindling etc-frankly itte wasse wasting away. Itte was bearded like yours, broad thin blade (yours looks thicker) I "sharpened" it a bit only with a round chainsaw axe (all there was) and it was potentially a great tool but they wouldn't sell :roll: :wink: :wink:
Please excuse my ocasionnel diversion into dialect spelling, can't 'elp it I love me accent me! :roll:
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
Hi again Boaty,
I expect you've read the review of your axe on outdoors-magazine.com?
Reviewer was v. impressed. He preferred it to GB small forest axe :wink:
 

Brynglas

Full Member
With regards to the Hook v Axe debate, I will let their owners speak for themselves, but in my opinion, the axe is the wrong tool for bushcraft. I believe that someone has picked up an axe and everyone else has followed without giving much thought to the functionality of an axe. An axe is design for a couple of tasks, felling timber, not wood and for splitting a log in half, period. What seems to be happening is that the bushcraft world is trying to get the axe to fit every purpose, but it won’t, because it can’t All you have to do, is look at any woodsmen tools. They may own an axe, but don’t know where it is. I can guarantee you that they will have at least 4 hooks and they know exactly where there are, they are right next to them. These humble, under rated tools have been the backbone of our ancient woodlands for thousands of years.

People are starting to see where the hook comes into play in bushcraft world and they are out selling all axes. I believe the reason for this is because people have thought that axe is the ‘ must have tool’ if you are a ‘bushcrafter’ but have soon realised that 9 times out of ten, it is a pain.

A hook becomes a part of you. Over the years, the handle mould into your hands and that is why woodsmen cuss and moan if they have to use someone else’s hook as it feel alien in the hand. I have seen grown men reduced to tears when they realise that their hooks have been stolen.


The axe is a fantastic tool for it’s job, but it is best left doing the job it was designed for. Wouldn’t you agree?

here, here, Jack. I totally agree with you on this. I own a small woodland which keeps me in firewood, walking sticks and wildlife and although I own two axes the tool that I always take out with me is my Llandeilo pattern hook, this serves me for almost all of my needs in the woods and anything that's too big for the hook gets the chainsaw treatment. I have a couple of other patterns of hook but the Llandeilo is my preference. About the only use that I put my axes to is log splitting.
 

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