Benefits of ketosis in the bush

[tobes01]

Right, this thread's bound to stir up some "that can't be healthy" remarks, but bear with me...

I've never been any good at managing my weight, and I know I'm not the only one of us who's partial to a pie and a pint and then another pie and another pint and so on... About four years ago I topped 19st, and had had enough so I hit the LighterLife diet. This gives you 600 calories a day, and you're not allowed anything at all other than the four sachets of soup/shake they supply. You have to complete a medical to join, and they check kidney function and blood pressure (it can go down rapidly) regularly. You also have to attend a counselling session every week, but it's single sex and very relaxed.

The diet puts you into ketosis, which is efficient burning of your body fat. Your appetite disappears in a few days, and so long as you remain hydrated, your energy levels tend to rise rather than drop off, although you can't muster high-burst energy. Men typically lose a pound a day.

I crashed off four stone in eight weeks, came off my blood pressure tablets, dropped my cholesterol to normal - there's even a chap I met there who reversed his type 2 diabetes. But because I didn't stick to their rules afterwards, my weight crept up again, so last summer I had a quick burst back on the diet, during which time I did a week-long Woodlore course, living just off the diet pack. No problems at all, so long as I was careful to keep a water bottle with me at all times.

Anyway, on to my point! I'm off to Sweden next week for a canoe trip, and having been slack with my weight again, this means I'm on the food packs. And that means I'm just taking this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38334971@N02/5949823332/in/set-72157627221322564/

That bag is tiny. Also shown are a couple of the diet bars (you are allowed one a day in place of a shake), guyot bottle, thermos, small MSR dromedary and my bushbuddy.

There's a lot to be said for being in ketosis in any environment where there's a plentiful supply of water. Food carry is minimal (about 750g), and if I really need it I can supplement my diet with fish. No energy lows, no need to carry complex cooking kit. As I understand it the Inuit peoples used to live in ketosis pretty much permanently (which is why the introduction of other foodstuffs had such an adverse health impact for some of them), and it would have been normal for many ancient peoples during seasons when there was little to gather but still game to hunt.

Anyway, will let you know how I get on - it does mean I'll have to forego the campfire whisky, but worth it to come home half a stone lighter than I set off! This time round I'm determined to see through the three-month 'retraining' back on to a more sensible nutrition balance than I've been eating in the past, so hopefully this will be the last time...

[no relationship with LighterLife other than being a satisfied customer etc etc]

 

[Wayland]

Good luck with it.

I've had an odd and on the face of it "unhealthy" diet most of my life and done all right on it. The time my weight started to go up was when it became more conventional and "healthy".

 

[SimonM]

Sounds like a similar idea to the Atkins Diet, but a bit more structured.

Good luck with the weight loss, remember to drink plenty of water and enjoy the trip.

Simon

 

[Retired Member southey]

Though i have a hatred for diets, whether you pay for them or not(as in control imposed upon what you eat), i think you have a very good point about the food needed in any environment, big heavy foods make big heavy tums, which can be nice around the fire for a few hours but i don't enjoy the feeling of tiredness that goes with them while your body digests the food, i tend to eat muesli during the day, bowl for breakfast and one some when during the day and a meaty meal a few hours before bed, the activity should be the goal though not the weight, if you focus on the weight then you loose sight of what your really aiming for, to be able to get around, play, do things for longer with out having to stop for a rest, i wonder though if the Inuit were in ketosis due to them mainly eating fat all the time?

 

[Paul_B]

Good luck.

 

[Satyr]

My girlfriend did a similar type of diet and lost a lot of weight too. I am pretty sure that you are only allowed to do this type of diet for so long before your body starts to go into shock (12 I think?)

Interestingly ketosis is mentioned by others in short term survival situations (3 days or less) as it stops you wasting energy looking for food. The down side is that if you eat more the 150g of carbohydrates you stop being in ketosis and start to break down the glycogen in the blood, liver and muscles.

I'm not sure that I could do it personally as I feel like I am about to die if I dont eat every few hours.

 

[mrcharly]

. You have to complete a medical to join, and they check kidney function and blood pressure (it can go down rapidly) regularly.

That bit should tell you all you need to know about the advisability of 'trying this at home', or indeed, in the bush.

If you are in a state of ketosis, it's likely that your brain isn't getting enough energy, so you won't necessarily be able to think clearly.

 

[Paul_B]

Without getting into an argument over effectiveness and that I'm kind of with mrcharly with this in that desire or need to lose weight should not carry safety risks. If there are any concerns as to how safe you would be in the field whilst on the diet then I suspect you should be giving one of them up. The medical check you mentioned came across as an example of how safe the diet is but my personal feeling is the truth is they are trying to cover themselves somehow. Perhaps by ruling out those for whom it a) might harm due to contra health issues and b) those it might not work for. It is kind of like they are kind of acknowledging something suspect about the diet regime with the medical check. Having said that if you are unhealthy even a gym recommends a health check first, certainly good ones. My old one took blood pressure, pulse, weight and height measurements. If you had indicators of health issues (obesity, high blood pressure, etc.) they told you so and recommended you see a doctor. So health checks might not be so bad just makes me think it is.

Do you mind me asking if you have tried any other weight loss regimes? Have you asked your GP for assistance or recommendations? IF you really are overweight (seriously) then perhaps there is help out there other than ketosis based diets. I have a mate who is on this long term diet which was fully paid up by the NHS based on food points and regular weigh ins. She had to go to them all or at least miss no more than a few each year if she had a good reason (hols, etc.). That has gone on for something like 5 years now as a steady downwards spiral of weight loss. She was probably heavier than you were and had more issues since she gained weight very quickly apparently its due to her metabolism or something. If weight is really an issue (I mean you are seriously overweight not just trying to keep it below a certain amount for looks) then help can be out there. Also the way her diet regime went she was told not to lose more than a certain amount each week / fortnight / month or whatever. Any more and it was not considered healthy for her nor would it stay off.

Which leads me to the next issue I have with some ketosis based diets and that is longevity. You can only stay on them for so long then you have to come off it or cut right back. Is that going to mean you will put weight back on? IIRC a lot of Atkins (for example) dieters tended to put weight back on. It has to be sustainable surely??

 

[tobes01]

Interesting feedback. To address a few points:
- I recall reading somewhere that Inuit diets, which were pretty much entirely hunter diets for much of the year, meant they were fit as fleas before 'western' carbs made it onto their menus, and the health implications for bodies which had been conditioned to those diets for generations weren't good (much in the same way as some Asian peoples who have traditionally lived on almost exclusively vegetarian/carb diets now suffer because of the widespread availability of meat and dairy).
- The only diet regime that has worked for me in the past was Atkins, but I didn't eat the fat - just cut out bread, spuds, alcohol etc. My problem is willpower for food, even had professional counselling over it. I need a 'binary' diet - someone to tell me 'eat this and this alone'.
- As for duration, there's a chap in our LighterLife class who was on it for nearly a year, he came down from nudging 30st to around 13st.
- Health: not going to dispute for a moment that people can be hurt by ketosis, it's why they check kidney function and blood pressure regularly. If there's an underlying condition you can get into trouble, likewise if you don't remain hydrated. Cycling in and out of ketosis isn't clever, this is about a purge of the system to get results. That said, when my weight is down, so's my blood pressure. When it's up so's my blood pressure (and cholesterol). Go figure
- Brain: I have fewer 'down' moments on ketosis than I do when I have carbs in my diet, because there's no sense of a sugar low, and if like me you're a bit too fond of the odd drink and sweet thing, then that can be crippling. I'm currently hauling into London on the 0540 train, coming home around 7pm, and doing 13hrs full-on policy work in Whitehall in the middle. I can safely say that without the presence of sugar lows and hangovers, my brain function has never been clearer.

Btw, although I started with a BMI of around 35, I'm not unfit - last summer I cycled from John O'Groats to Land's End, came 103rd out of 600 keen club riders. Somewhere under all the lard there's an athlete desperately trying to get out!

My challenge will be to keep the carb levels down in the future. I'm one of those people who can't fill the car up without buying a couple of bags of sweets, and has to have bread with every meal, and a couple of drinks every evening. Get rid of that and I won't have to do this in the future.

 

[mrcharly]

I'm not arguing against the diet, just the idea of forcing yourself into ketosis.

It's perfectly possible to eat a low-carb, high-protein diet and not be in ketosis, but you'll need to 'train' your body to digest that sort of food. To be truly in ketosis, you have depleted your liver of glycogen, which isn't a healthy state to be in.

 

[tobes01]

Quite agreed - that's my intention in a few weeks once the bulk of the weight has come off.

 

[rik_uk3]

Let hope you get back safely, your in a canoe, on starvation rations (which is effectively what you are doing, your on a controlled starvation diet), your BP drops through your socks and you black out, over flips the canoe and you die.

I think you are an absolute idiot to even contemplate a trip like this on that amount of daily energy, very very dangerous. My sister in law was on a similar diet and she went into renal failure; thankfully she survived.

Go on this fantastic trip and eat good food, lots of food, enjoy yourself *** and address your weight issues when you return.

 

[tobes01]

Let hope you get back safely, your in a canoe, on starvation rations (which is effectively what you are doing, your on a controlled starvation diet), your BP drops through your socks and you black out, over flips the canoe and you die.

I think you are an absolute idiot to even contemplate a trip like this on that amount of daily energy, very very dangerous. My sister in law was on a similar diet and she went into renal failure; thankfully she survived.

Go on this fantastic trip and eat good food, lots of food, enjoy yourself *** and address your weight issues when you return.

I appreciate you've had a bad experience, sorry to hear it. I have had only a good experience. No need to start slinging abuse about.

 

[rik_uk3]

If you put yourself on this diet and go on a holiday where you will be burning off a lot of energy would you say thats safe practise or idiotic? Not being abusive but I am very worried for your safety.

Remember when you go on these extreme and dangerous diets your body goes into survival mode which means that as soon as you start eating normal food your body stashes it away and you will bang on the weight. The people promoting this diet should be locked up. Control what you eat by all means but don't strain your body by following this foolish route. Keep safe mate.

 

[tobes01]

FWIW, I'm currently getting an hour's moderate (HR 120-140BPM) exercise a day without a problem; have had a week in the woods on the same diet before without any problems at all; have an emergency stash if I do feel weak; and this isn't a hard-work expedition, we'll only be doing a few miles a day. I appreciate the advice, but not the tone - I'm a big boy and don't need to be patronised. You've clearly been exposed to a very different experience, and as I said I'm sorry to hear that. Perhaps a slightly less aggressive tone on your part might result in your opinions being taken in the helpful manner in which I'm sure they were intended?

 

[Toddy]

When I'm working outdoors I eat very little. When working away from home for weeks at a time I can lose an astonishing amount of weight. Six weeks away dropped my weight by over two stones.
I'm fit, functioning, full of energy and working as though on high octane petrol.
But, when I stop, oh dear gods the rebound is hellish.
Once I stop, I stop. I seize up and even though I'm not a heavy eater the weight piles on. It's as though the body thinks (quite rightly!) that I've been starving it, and it's going to store every calorie it can.

I don't know anyone, on any diet programme other than the one Paul's friend is on, who not only loses the weight but keeps it off permanently.

Ketosis is a known human food economy. It's only effective long term in a society where the glut and starvation cycle is a normal part of their lifestyle.
It's not in the West. Our ancestors farmed and it shows in the foods we can eat and digest. Foods that we store for through the otherwise *hungry* times.

If you really want to lose the weight this way Tobes, best of luck with it, but going to the environment that you intend, and taking part in high levels of physical activity, I think it'd be a bit more practical to pack some high energy, slow digestion foods like dried fruits and nuts, maybe jerky if you eat meat, too. At least that way you have something to fall back on if needed.

atb,
Toddy

 

[mrcharly]

Although I don't think pushing to ketosis is a good idea at all, even with medical supervision, tobes is sensibly taking along emergency rations (although I think he should take 10x the amount). If he's done LeJog, then he's familiar with high-fuel activity.

I reckon that after a week, any moose or reindeer up there should be very scared if they see a salivating large man.

 

[tobes01]

Cheers Toddy, much appreciated - as I said above, I've got some emergency rations if I slide, but my experience has been completely positive with this approach in the past, and I'm not going to be pushing myself, either physically or on the diet - if I start to fade then I'm straight off it. If nothing else, that sort of silliness would spoil the week for the rest of the team as they have to sort me out. Oh, and I'm blowed if I'm catching fish and not eating them

My problem tends to be a slow but very steady regain of weight over a period, rather than a rapid change. My underlying 'normal' diet is actually pretty good - could get a bit more fruit in - but gets compromised by portion sizes, dressings, side orders and snacking. And booze.

To those who question the approach, I fully understand your concerns. It's not natural, but then neither is being 19st with raised blood pressure and cholesterol, and something approaching a proper drink problem. There's a growing body of formal medical evidence that a brief properly-supervised very low calorie diet can permanently reverse type 2 diabetes.

Setting aside the pending flame war my original point, which I didn't make very well at all, was that this approach might be 'unnatural' in modern western cultures, but I suspect would once have been the seasonal norm for our ancestors as carbs became hard to find in midwinter in northern climates.

Anyway, enough of all this. I guessed when I started that it would inflame feelings (not always driven by facts) as I said at the start of the first post, and I apologise for doing so. Mods are welcome to lock if they wish.

 

[tobes01]

Although I don't think pushing to ketosis is a good idea at all, even with medical supervision, tobes is sensibly taking along emergency rations (although I think he should take 10x the amount). If he's done LeJog, then he's familiar with high-fuel activity.

I reckon that after a week, any moose or reindeer up there should be very scared if they see a salivating large man.

Too right they should, 'cos I'm allowed to eat them. Might hollow one out and eat my way from the inside.

Oh, and in response to the concerns, I'm going to stash a little more than originally planned, but we only have 4 nights away from civilisation, we're not trying to re-enact the voyageurs...

 

[mrcharly]

If I throw any flames your way, it will only be because I'm jealous that you are going canoeing in Sweden. If you get flamed enough, you can use it to bbq a reindeer.

I reckon fundamentally you just need to avoid booze - it's real difficult, particularly when it gets to be a habit to unwind with a glass or two.