Benefits of ketosis in the bush

[tobes01]

And I shall deserve those flames, and possibly use them to grill something protein-based

Mrs Tobes allows me a week away every year to go and do manly things, and for a few years it was Woodlore courses, but then I saw the price of the Survival School expedition (very reasonable) and cancelled my booking to do that instead.

And yes, your point about the booze is something I already know. What's interesting is how easily I can 'switch it off' during these periods of abstinence, I really don't miss it. That leads me to think that my problem is a combination of an emotional dependence, and the extraordinary ability of booze to deliver a nice big hit of carbs. But that will be another thread in the future...

 

[rik_uk3]

Although I don't think pushing to ketosis is a good idea at all, even with medical supervision, tobes is sensibly taking along emergency rations (although I think he should take 10x the amount). If he's done LeJog, then he's familiar with high-fuel activity.

I reckon that after a week, any moose or reindeer up there should be very scared if they see a salivating large man.

Problem is when he collapses how will they get fuel into him, when that happens he needs IV lines and medical supervision.

Stay safe young man.

 

[marcusleftthesite]

I have been on ketosis diets for years,basically 20 net grammes of carbs a day and never felt better.Up until a rotator cuff injury stopped me I was Thai boxing 4 sessions a week and doing weights,cycling,and kipping out on Dartmoor,or canoeing.Never collapsed,never felt ill and certainly out performed a lot of the boys on normal diets.

 

[Balanophage]

One thing to note (useful also for survival situations) and I mention it because no-one else has so far - if you are injured or sick, your body will not go into ketosis. Hence, if a group is stranded, the healthy go on water only and reserve the food for the injured. Once you're in full ketosis, the brain swaps from using glucose to ketones, and many people say their thinking in ketosis is clearer.

 

[Andy BB]

One interesting piece of info on the low-carb route to weight loss - apparently losing weight on a low-carb diet results in only 1% by weight of weight-loss is in muscle, compared to 7% of muscle on a low-fat but not low-carb diet.

 

[Mikey P]

What you are describing is a really, really poor diet. 600kCal/day is practically starvation and whilst you will lose weight, the long term effects are bad. Period. Not even people about to undergo bariatric surgery eat that little! Living on a that low an energy intake will suppress your metabolic rate as the body goes into 'starvation mode'. This suppression takes time to recover and can actually be permanent. Lower metabolic rate = burning fewer calories and this is why yo-yo dieters put weight back on - and usually more of it. You are yo-yo dieting! The minimal intake of energy also means you are short of micronutrients (vits & mins), which may also have significant detrimental effects, particularly on ability to fight infection and regenerate tissue.

Furthermore, the argument about our ancestors does not hold. They did not have a continual excess of calories in the diet (and ate better quality food than most people do today and were much more active, which is why they were not overweight) and this is why we have the in-built starvation mode.

Please, please, please do not continue with this 'quick fix' diet - it is pants! If you really wish to lose weight, it needs to be in a controlled long-term fashion, reducing your normal intake by about 300-500 kCal per day (a latte and a mars bar) where you can manage sustainable weight loss which you can then maintain. Eat good quality food, plenty of fresh fruit and veg, etc. I'm sure you know this anyway.

If you are really worried and struggling with your weight, please see a dietician or go to a proper weight-loss clinic. There is no magic bullet for rapid sustainable weight-loss - it must be diet and exercise and long-term changes in your lifestyle.

Sorry to be 'preachy' but you are actually endangering your health and possibly even encouraging others to do similar.

PS - Low-carb diets are rubbish too. We always hear about the exception rather than the rule - for every person thriving on a low-carb diet, many more are not. This is almost like endorsing the behaviour of people who live on crisps. We need to start reading proper scientific papers rather than celebrity-endorsed adverts.

 

[Paganwolf]

Last 2 people i knew that went on the ATKINS diet, low carb, ended up loosing a silly amount of weight to quickly looked terrible then died of cancer of their liver and stomach, im not saying this is connected at all but your better off over weight but healthy than on a non natural diet and ill, just eat healthily, simple really.....

 

[tobes01]

Folks, I'm rather fed up with the tone of some (just some) of the posts here, so this is the last time I drop in on this thread. Delighted to be criticised and advised, but I thought we weren't the sort of community to slag off and patronise on the back of no evidence (the "I knew someone who had a problem" approach). My experience is that people who say "you're mad" to my face either clearly have never suffered a weight issue, or are so fat they're in complete denial. "Just sort your food intake." B*ll*cks. That's like going to an alcoholic and saying "just stop drinking." For some, it doesn't work like that. The fact I can do things like LEJOG (well JOGLE actually) shows I'm not lacking willpower, the issues are elsewhere.

FWIW, this is not a random, unstructured limitation of calories. That would of course be bl**dy stupid.
- I had a full medical before I started, and knew from experience that my body enjoys the state of ketosis
- The meal packs provide more than the RDA of all relevant vitamins, minerals, oils etc
- Weekly discussion and behavioural training sessions are mandatory. No attendance = no food packs.
- The diet does not end at the end of ketosis, but carries on for several months with ongoing support sessions.
- Ongoing medical monitoring is mandatory
- My GP is very supportive. He was a sceptic when I started, but having seen the results he has recommended other patients.
As usual, no connection, just a satisfied customer etc.

I'm grateful for the warnings and advice, and will certainly take heed. To those who have just thrown in ill-informed gossip, that's your shout. I'm not normally one to throw my opinions around, slag other members off for a laugh, or pick a fight for fun. I thought we were a bit better than that. Frankly I'm feeling rather jaded with BCUK right now.

 

[Toddy]

Your first post said you reckoned it was going to be contentious, you can hardly be surprised when it was
A few critical posts on one thread should hardly put you off an entire forum full of people. No?

As to the ketosis weight loss regime; I think it's an interesting approach, but I wonder how effective it actually is long term.
My weight is up and down like a yoyo. Just now it's up the temptation for a quick fix when it is up, is tremendous. I know me however, and I know that I could never sustain living on so little, except when away from home working hard, or in a similar situation where there was no food available. Real life means I cook at least three times a day for family. Dieting I can do, starvation ain't happening.
The rebound is always heavier than I started out.
Not doing it again if I can help it.

So, wishing you the best with it all and hoping that maybe for you this really is the best way but to quote my Scot's ..."Ah ha'e me doots."

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Andy BB]

Tobes, I sympathise. So much info is pumped out as "fact", when it is in fact just PR. "Eat healthily" is one such phrase. What exactly does that mean? A caveman diet? Lots of fruit and veg? No meat? Low carb? Low fat? Low GI? A bit of everything in moderation? (but what do we mean by "everything"?)

Eating healthily always seems to include lots of bread. Why? Our bodies were never designed to use this product - certainly not in its current, highly-refined state. Some of the diet organisations have major links to food manufacturers (did anyone know for example that Weight-watchers used to be owned by Heinz - still may be for all I know. No wonder baked beans are touted as healthy eating). Most "brown sugar" is in fact processed white sugar with brown colouring. And so it goes on...

If you want to look for the real killer, its sugar, and its addition to everything to make it taste better. And of course, if that "everything" is cheap carbs, rather than much more expensive protein, then all the better from a commercial stand-point. In relative terms, its use has exploded over the last century or two as it became more accessible and cheap. And obesity and heart problems have exploded in synch. Heck, I love doughuts - the smell of them cooking is absolutely irresistable - but batter fried in fat, then covered in sugar is probably not a good diet! Profitable though for the seller............................

Its the same with fats. Natives - eg old-lifestyle Innuit - who had a ludicrously high intake of fat in their diet by Western standards - suffered virtually no heart problems, because it was not accompanied by excessive carbs or sugar. Once western-style diet became available, hello coronary, despite no change in their exercise regimes........

 

[rik_uk3]

Don't give up on the Forum Tobes, people are concerned for your safety. Its a diet that puts a lot of strain on your body, renal system, heart, bones etc. My sister in law recovered after being rushed into hospital and spending a few days in ITU and another week or so on a ward, BUT she had a hell of a time with extremely painful kidney stones bought on by the diet which meant going under the knife to sort them out, and as with all folk coming off a starvation diet she banged on a load of weight when she ate normal food.

She then re-educated herself regarding her diet, planned her weekly menu's, got to understand how food works etc and lost the weight very slowly over a couple or three of years and now is a slimmer and happier person enjoying food of all types. Changing your diet is a life changing event as she has proved to herself and not something you can do by just adopting extreme eating regimes.

 

[Mikey P]

Healthy eating? Ta da! Seek and ye shall find...

http://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts/HealthyEating.pdf

This, of course, assumes that you have no clinical issues that require dietary modification.

 

[wattsy]

to be honest mate i'd switch to the atkins diet same theory (ketosis based) but not calorie limited. from the sounds of things you won't be taking in enough calories to maintain your energy levels.

also, for all the naysayers, ketosis isn't dangerous as long as you're staying hydrated so you can excrete the waste. thats just like the normal eating cr#p life so its not too hard. i recently put on a lot of weight due to boredom and stress, then decided to do
something about it. during my 2 weeks of atkins i've lost almost a stone and i've never felt better, you're energy levels actually go up after a couple of days and you're appetite goes down. also, a big plus is that you can eat steak every day if you like

a lot of people mistake ketosis for ketoacidosis which is dangerous, but they aren't the same

 

[Sideburnt]

I eat a very similar diet. As a type 1 diabetic carbohydrates are simply put a chuffing pain in the A to include in your diet in high levels. Most dieticians base knowledge on modern thinking that carbohydrates are an essential part of our diet and in quite high levels at that.

Genetically speaking we are evolved to burn fat as our primary form of energy, and subsequently in storing and burning fat as a reserve. Modern obesity is caused by an imabalance in the modern diet, carbohydrates are a form of energy which in effect has replaced the need for a fatty diet, unfortunatly the levels of fat in diets has not reduced. The body stores the unused fat and the problem compunds itself.

Switching to ketosis is not an alternative diet fad, its switching back into the diet we are naturally evolved for. there's a reson our bodies automatically switch to burning fat once you limit the input of carbohydrates, it's not 'switching' per se you're simply restoring the natural dietry balance and working with your body rather than against it.

All forms of modern carbohydrates have been artifically added to our diet. Most starchy root vegetables have been genetically enhanced to produce larger yields, sugar is now processed in high quantities and grains are grown via agriculture rather than gathered in small quantities

I would say two things for Ketosis, the first is that this 'diet' shouldn't be restricted by ridiculous restrictions as set by paleo and atkin guidlines, low carb is enough. And secondly your body will adapt perfectly to your environment, if you're active your body will put on muscle mass due to higher (read: higher, not high) levels of protein intake, and your BMI will lower as you burn off excess body fat and store only as much as your body needs.

Personally once I got over the shock at maintaining my energy levels via fat intake (coconut oil mainly) I felt much better. I'm also not forcing an insulin response for every single thing I eat which is causing epidemics levels of T2 diabetes in our generation, we're simply not evolved to put our digestive system under such pressure.

To address a few outlandish suggestions, this is not a 'starvation' diet, its just not eating an excess of grains, starches and sugars which all have increased massively in our diets over the last few hundred years causing dietry complications such as gluten allergies. Yes it does you no harm to eat these things if you maintain a healthy active lifestyle, but most of us are tied to a desk for most of the day, meaning you don't burn the excess calories, eating a mix of low glycemic food such as grain and high glycemic food like sugar will force your body into a rollercoaster of dipping and raising energy levels. Eating fat means that your body has a constant supply of energy that is simple to process. (carbohydrates as a whole, have a very complex route to take before they become accessible energy, hence low glycemic levels. coupled with a slow digestive transit. ) You will not get sudden blood pressure drops, that is plain pseudo science. You will experience a period of around two weeks when you diminish your carb intake where you feel quite flu like, but you eventually switch to burning fats and you'll feel better very quickly.
Finally your brain needs somewhere in the region of 50g of glucogen to operate at its premium, if I avoid bread, sugar, rice, pasta I'd still find it very hard in the day to not consume 50g of carbs, most of it would most likely be in the form of vegetables and also provide me the ample amount of fiber I need also, most vegetables are low on the glycemic index and provide a slow release of energy.

I'm not soapboxing, but I did want to address some of the mis information in this thread.

 

[udamiano]

Its the same with fats. Natives - eg old-lifestyle Innuit - who had a ludicrously high intake of fat in their diet by Western standards - suffered virtually no heart problems, because it was not accompanied by excessive carbs or sugar. Once western-style diet became available, hello coronary, despite no change in their exercise regimes........

Interestingly I've just commented on this in a different thread, THe amount of high protein they consume in their diets would make my doctor groan LOL.
but as you say they have little in the way of carbs, although I must say even the current generation don't go in for veg (if you see the price of veg in the local supermarkets, might be the reason for this).
I found that I was almost constantly eating, and still loosing weight, over a 3 week period I lost about 8 kilos, and was eating like a hog , sadly when returned home, the environment in the Midlands was not the same, and hey-presto, welcome to the fat pants section in a short time. on well, bit expensive though as diets go, but a lot more enjoyable

 

[Sideburnt]

It's an interesting situation and no lie, I suppose I get on so well with it because carbs are now on the no no list perminantly and I can't really be tmpted anymore. Which is rubbish for sure. The main reason this diet doens't work for buchcrafting is probably as simple as it's easier to carry dried pasta than it is carry root veg and dried meat around. I really miss the days of being so flexible with my diet, even though I genuinely feel better for dropping all the carbs. Bloody genetics.

 

[jacko1066]

Folks, I'm rather fed up with the tone of some (just some) of the posts here, so this is the last time I drop in on this thread. Delighted to be criticised and advised, but I thought we weren't the sort of community to slag off and patronise on the back of no evidence (the "I knew someone who had a problem" approach). My experience is that people who say "you're mad" to my face either clearly have never suffered a weight issue, or are so fat they're in complete denial. "Just sort your food intake." B*ll*cks. That's like going to an alcoholic and saying "just stop drinking." For some, it doesn't work like that. The fact I can do things like LEJOG (well JOGLE actually) shows I'm not lacking willpower, the issues are elsewhere.

FWIW, this is not a random, unstructured limitation of calories. That would of course be bl**dy stupid.
- I had a full medical before I started, and knew from experience that my body enjoys the state of ketosis
- The meal packs provide more than the RDA of all relevant vitamins, minerals, oils etc
- Weekly discussion and behavioural training sessions are mandatory. No attendance = no food packs.
- The diet does not end at the end of ketosis, but carries on for several months with ongoing support sessions.
- Ongoing medical monitoring is mandatory
- My GP is very supportive. He was a sceptic when I started, but having seen the results he has recommended other patients.
As usual, no connection, just a satisfied customer etc.

I'm grateful for the warnings and advice, and will certainly take heed. To those who have just thrown in ill-informed gossip, that's your shout. I'm not normally one to throw my opinions around, slag other members off for a laugh, or pick a fight for fun. I thought we were a bit better than that. Frankly I'm feeling rather jaded with BCUK right now.

Tobes, I wish you all the best pal!!!

I no exactly what its lke to be massively overweight and not being able to do anything about it, I too am in a similar club, hugely over weight and find life and doing what I want to do incredibally difficult!!

My reason is I suffer with Chrons disease, I lose weight, I then get my steroids bumped up,because of illness, then the weight hammers me, then I come off the steroids over a long period of time, I then have a flare up of my condition, back on the steroids or surgury like Im just getting over now, and hey presto my weight goes up massively again!!

It sounds to me your very switched on, your well in charge of your body and are taking all the right precautions, I am very very interested in this diet as It could help me alot so any info you could give me regarding price and stuff would be awesome!

Like I say bud, I wish you every success and I hope it all works out exactly how you want it to!! Keep us well informed!!!

All the best
Steve

 

[spiritwalker]

kind of agree with rik here very risky and your missing the key thing about this diet you have done it twice before and put the weight back on so long term its ultimately not working for you. Weight control comes down to simply eating less or more healthily and being active. I eat shed loads (everybody comments on it sometimes upto 6000cals in a day and never really less than 3000) but i burn loads too i have a fast metabolism and keep active. Do yourself a favour and eat healthily on your trip youll be burning lots of calories anyway find a few active sports you like and ease down on the pints and pies. Moderation is the key all these loose weight quick schemes end up with most people being back where they started... I lost 3 stone just by cycling i done it gradually over 12 months and 3 years later i am still the same weight. Food can be more than just fuel it can be mood affecting and moral boosting too and a social please its all down to moderation.

 

[xylaria]

I agree with rik as well, and trust me that is quite rare. Crash diets make people fat, they slow the metobolism, leave the body malnorished in way that binge eating and increased fat storage become nearly enevatable. Humans across the globe eat a very wide array of natural diets from mostly meat to mostly veggie, the people eating them are healthy because they are active, and they eat enough vitamins and minerals. Westerners dont eat enough natural micronutrients that why we eat when arent hungry [that looking at cupboard and wanting to pick], our starches are too processed, or our veg is over cultivated so is very low in substances like lectins.
If you think about if you were a caveman in britain what you would eat. No processed white flour, white sugar, no MSG, no asparteme, no transfats and unforunatly no Beer. You would eat lean game meat, and nuts, these would be the only source fat you get. Root vegatables and flowers would be the only source of any form sugar this time of year, it is another month of two before you get to eat any fruit. The rest of your diet is rich green veg and insects. There would be some grain, but probably not wheat, but there was a large scope of various seeds that were eaten. This is our natural diet, it is what we are evolved to eat.

 

[Andy BB]

Stick with what works for you Tobes, and what your doctor supports. Ignore the naysayers, whose info appears to come from the tabloid press