Article: Ventile
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Great article John! I've not owned much ventile, bar knee patches on the trousers and have been looking for some to try- any specific garments you could recommend?
I love cotton (and natural fibres like wool in general) garments and completely agree with all your views on the ethics and the practical uses in bushcraft.
Thanks for the article, it was a very enjoyable read!
I love cotton (and natural fibres like wool in general) garments and completely agree with all your views on the ethics and the practical uses in bushcraft.
Thanks for the article, it was a very enjoyable read!
Interesting reading John. Good learn a little more history of this great fabric. I've had my single layer Ventile smock for 7 years now, its a sewn up, patched and has generally taken a beating. Still works just as well as the day I got it and it's my go-to jacket for anything but high peaks.
It's particularly good in winter with a wool shirt or jumper underneath. Warm, dry and comfortable what more could you ask for?
It's particularly good in winter with a wool shirt or jumper underneath. Warm, dry and comfortable what more could you ask for?
An excellent read John and very well timed as I've been looking to purchase my first ventile garment and have been a little confused at the choice. A great read. Thanks.
Well you and I have been agreeing on Ventile for a looong time John. I'm sure bin liners (aka MVP) suit those with a penchant for sitting very still and not moving. But for a person who actually wants to do things in rough terrain and who doesn't employ flying monkeys, nothing beats Ventile!
Great article I do still have and wear some ventile kit, it's tough and does the job pretty well, I have a soft spot for it and it will last me for years to come. BUT I am also realistic it weighs more than my 2 person tent and a sleeping bag even when dry. When wet it weighs even more, loses all it's breathability and takes forever to dry. Synthetics are used by every expedition and every major organisation now for these reasons. The best fabrics are now undoubtedly measurably as breathable and stay that way when wet. They also weigh so much less and can be stuffed away. For a ventile jacket you can carry 3 layers and that has to be more flexible but not as tactile.
I love Ventile for general bushcraft. We are often in relatively sheltered areas so rarely end up completely soaked and fabric that is resistant to being snagged or damaged by fire has huge benefits. Walking over Dartmoor in sideways rain the disadvantages become more apparent and then I turn to Paramo which I find better for that environment.
My old single layer Ventile smock is disintegrating - literally worn to death. I made it many years ago because I find much commercial kit doesn't fit short, wide women. I'm having trouble finding the lightweight fabric I want to make another one though.
My old single layer Ventile smock is disintegrating - literally worn to death. I made it many years ago because I find much commercial kit doesn't fit short, wide women. I'm having trouble finding the lightweight fabric I want to make another one though.
I enjoyed the history on the fabric, but as you know, we have to agree to disagree with respect to its performance.
For one, it is not a true waterproof material. It is a softeshell fabric, and I have no idea why people keep comparing it to laminate based hardshells like GoreTex, which are actually waterproof. Ventile is much closer to modern softshells like Pertex.
The "strength" of the fabric comes from its thickness. For the same thickness, a Ventile jacket is not any stronger than many of the other modern fabrics on the market. It is of course stronger when made extremely thick, something needed for even relative waterproofness in heavy rain.
Due to the properties of the fabric, Ventile jackets end up being very heavy when compared to modern ones, are exponentially heavier when wet because instead of repelling water, they absorb it, and once wet, takes huge amounts of time to dry out, not to mention that they are not at all breathable when wet.
I'm not sure who "those in the know" are, but they seem to be a tiny, tiny minority in the outdoor community, as most of us wouldn't use Ventile clothing even if we got paid for it.
People like what they like for numerous reasons, and that's fine. However, the appeal tends to diminish greatly for anyone who's had to carry a wet Ventile jacket for several days through the woods.
For one, it is not a true waterproof material. It is a softeshell fabric, and I have no idea why people keep comparing it to laminate based hardshells like GoreTex, which are actually waterproof. Ventile is much closer to modern softshells like Pertex.
The "strength" of the fabric comes from its thickness. For the same thickness, a Ventile jacket is not any stronger than many of the other modern fabrics on the market. It is of course stronger when made extremely thick, something needed for even relative waterproofness in heavy rain.
Due to the properties of the fabric, Ventile jackets end up being very heavy when compared to modern ones, are exponentially heavier when wet because instead of repelling water, they absorb it, and once wet, takes huge amounts of time to dry out, not to mention that they are not at all breathable when wet.
I'm not sure who "those in the know" are, but they seem to be a tiny, tiny minority in the outdoor community, as most of us wouldn't use Ventile clothing even if we got paid for it.
People like what they like for numerous reasons, and that's fine. However, the appeal tends to diminish greatly for anyone who's had to carry a wet Ventile jacket for several days through the woods.
For that matter so is Paramo and I have literally never been wet from either the rain or from sweat whilst wearing Paramo garments even in Dartmoor's continuous sideways rain.
It really is horses for courses. I wouldn't choose to wear or carry a Ventile jacket for a several day treck over the Moor for many of the reasons you give, but as a bushcraft garment it works very well indeed whereas the Paramo's outer layer is vulnerable to fire damage and most membrane systems are noisy and sweaty.
EdS
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
The eco foot print of ventile isnt so good either when you consider the pesticides, fertiliser s and irrigation water used in top cotton s.
nice article, and very informative.
You say its breathable, is this goretex breathable ie fine when you can unzip your coat but when its humid in rain and the surface is bein splashed, it plummits ?
It does have to be double layer to be water protective doesn't it ?
And the treatments for it, would this not stop the cotton swelling, or is this like using it as a dwr fabric?
And finally its ok in a shower but do you throw a poncho over to stop yourself getting drenched in a deluge
As for pertex, its more like canvas and in respect to wearing it (bog standard pertex, I know coats are out there, but less breathable)if you touch it it leaks, disrupts the capiliary action, more a tent fly fabuwic that sort.
You say its breathable, is this goretex breathable ie fine when you can unzip your coat but when its humid in rain and the surface is bein splashed, it plummits ?
It does have to be double layer to be water protective doesn't it ?
And the treatments for it, would this not stop the cotton swelling, or is this like using it as a dwr fabric?
And finally its ok in a shower but do you throw a poncho over to stop yourself getting drenched in a deluge
As for pertex, its more like canvas and in respect to wearing it (bog standard pertex, I know coats are out there, but less breathable)if you touch it it leaks, disrupts the capiliary action, more a tent fly fabuwic that sort.
I understand that Pertex was originally designed to be an artificial version of Ventile - for tent flies
If I am going out in atrocious conditions I may well carry a poncho to go over my Ventile....
If I am going out in atrocious conditions I may well carry a poncho to go over my Ventile....
[QUOTEI'm not sure who "those in the know" are, but they seem to be a tiny, tiny minority in the outdoor community, as most of us wouldn't use Ventile clothing even if we got paid for it. ][/QUOTE]
Well im not in the know, but i have a gortex and a ventile jacket and i absolutely love the ventile one and hate the gortex. I have no technical or scientific explenations for it.
I find i sweat like a pig in my gortex jacket and is noisy. My Ventile however feels lovely, cant explain why but it just does. Also it feels nice even in the summer on a rainy day, feels nice and cool
Well im not in the know, but i have a gortex and a ventile jacket and i absolutely love the ventile one and hate the gortex. I have no technical or scientific explenations for it.
I find i sweat like a pig in my gortex jacket and is noisy. My Ventile however feels lovely, cant explain why but it just does. Also it feels nice even in the summer on a rainy day, feels nice and cool
Thanks for an interesting and informative article.
My experience with different garments suggests that there is no absolute best, and that the optimum depends on the circumstances. However there is no doubt that when working in woodlands tough materials are preferable.
The definition of "waterproof" is really a matter of degree. Different materials can support different heads of water. However the current Wikipedia article on waterproof fabric suggests that a static head of at least 1000mm (i.e. 1m) of water should be achieved. By that definition, all Ventile materials would fail. However the article does go on to say that "Rain room tests show that some fabrics with less than 1,000 mm of water resistance keep water out sufficiently for practical purposes".
My suspicion is that Ventile would be very good in the relatively protected environment of a woodland, with its many possibilities for catching and puncturing clothing, whilst out on the open moors some modern synthetic fabrics would fare better - particularly in wind driven rain. By way of example, Gore-tex products seem to be able to manage a hydrostatic head of 28000mm (assuming that they are in good condition).
My experience with different garments suggests that there is no absolute best, and that the optimum depends on the circumstances. However there is no doubt that when working in woodlands tough materials are preferable.
The definition of "waterproof" is really a matter of degree. Different materials can support different heads of water. However the current Wikipedia article on waterproof fabric suggests that a static head of at least 1000mm (i.e. 1m) of water should be achieved. By that definition, all Ventile materials would fail. However the article does go on to say that "Rain room tests show that some fabrics with less than 1,000 mm of water resistance keep water out sufficiently for practical purposes".
My suspicion is that Ventile would be very good in the relatively protected environment of a woodland, with its many possibilities for catching and puncturing clothing, whilst out on the open moors some modern synthetic fabrics would fare better - particularly in wind driven rain. By way of example, Gore-tex products seem to be able to manage a hydrostatic head of 28000mm (assuming that they are in good condition).
The MOD consider 800 as waterproof so by definition not all ventile falls short - L28 is 900mm and all come within 50mm of MOD "Waterproof" classification at 750mm.
Ventile is certainly not breathable when wet - as John says its threads absorb moisture and swell to provide initial rain protection, which also prevent moisture escaping outwards through the cloth. And in heavy rain its not waterproof either, for exactly the same reasons. Undergarments will get damp and clammy. Which is why you need a poncho on top for heavy rain conditions (which also negate the breathability of the ventile garments) Good for abrasion resistance though.
The only truly waterproof cotton garments are waxed cotton ones, which also are very abrasion-resistant. Don't breathe though.
I fell for the hype many years ago, spending a fortune on a double-ventile jacket from the old Survival Aids company. It was heavy (and even heavier- much heavier - when wet!), not waterproof or breathable in heavy rain for the reasons described above, and took forever to dry. It's no longer the 1940s - there's much more suitable materials out there nowadays.
The only truly waterproof cotton garments are waxed cotton ones, which also are very abrasion-resistant. Don't breathe though.
I fell for the hype many years ago, spending a fortune on a double-ventile jacket from the old Survival Aids company. It was heavy (and even heavier- much heavier - when wet!), not waterproof or breathable in heavy rain for the reasons described above, and took forever to dry. It's no longer the 1940s - there's much more suitable materials out there nowadays.
To quote a guide of many years standing, " nothing is really waterproof, except maybe oilskin, its all a compromise between how much gets in and how much you sweat."
Ventile lets more in but you sweat less, Goretex keeps more out but you sweat more in it.
Ventile lets more in but you sweat less, Goretex keeps more out but you sweat more in it.
How about a poncho from ventile or double ventile enough to keep you comfy? Only ask as I'mpart way to getting myself a laurence of Arabia shawl for when it's sunny. An old argument, cover up and sweat, take your clothes off and burn.
Brilliant article John, I have recently finished working with some of those RAF Aircrew, where I maintained and repaired said Immersion suits, There was definitely a split between the older crew members and the young 'tech fabric' enthusiasts. For me however, having to maintain them, the Ventile or as its known in the mob dual layer gaberdine (Ventile being a trade name) The heavier woven material is far more abrasion resistant, can be glued and sewn without the need to use expensive heat presses to 'tape' or seal repairs. The majority of the crews in my experience, especially those who had to operate in the rear of cargo aircraft or helicopters, would choose the gaberdine suits. They are less prone to tearing and probably more importantly the are warmer, now some might argue that would be a curse in the warm weather, but for those actively moving about the aircraft or being exposed to the airflow they are perfect, even if they are slightly heavier. They are also considerably warmer when immersed. I have also worn a Ventile smock in the Arctic and it was just brilliant, the fact it can be freeze dried never failed to amaze me. I still have it and still use it as my jacket of choice!
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