Are you interested in HE Bushcraft Qualifications?

[pentrekeeper]

I have to ask myself WHY does it need any regulation, and the only answer that makes sense is so that people can make easy money from it.

I have seen this in other industries, training schools set up purely to make easy money, then get the backing of legislators and before long it becomes illegal to practice unless you have a certificate of competence.

I therefore strongly oppose any form of qualification for bushcraft, and question your motives for trying to introduce such.

 

[Mesquite]

I have to ask myself WHY does it need any regulation, and the only answer that makes sense is so that people can make easy money from it.

That's the way I feel about it as well and filled out your survey to that effect

Bushcrafting is my hobby, the thing I do that takes me away from the stresses and tribulations of modern life. Any studying I do is because I want to learn about a particular aspect or skill not because I have to complete some qualification that will have no bearing in my life and no doubt cost me a lot of money as well.

 

[Macaroon]

I have to ask myself WHY does it need any regulation, and the only answer that makes sense is so that people can make easy money from it.

I have seen this in other industries, training schools set up purely to make easy money, then get the backing of legislators and before long it becomes illegal to practice unless you have a certificate of competence.

I therefore strongly oppose any form of qualification for bushcraft, and question your motives for trying to introduce such.

My thoughts almost exactly; this hobby is my last refuge from "all that". Leave it as it is, sez I

 

[lisa]

I can understand the concerns being expresses here, but please understand that I am not talking about defining, regulating, standardising or 'imposing' anything. I am simply someone who, as a bushcraft practitioner and educator for the past 18 years, and more recently an academic, thought wouldnt it be amazing if we could get bushcraft inside the academy at PG level. That way it sits there for all those who are interested, internationally, in further researching the myriad of topics that bushcraft speaks to. Its not excluding anyone since, IF this gets any further, essentially anyone with a decent level of experience and certainly with NCFEs can apply...no need for any undergrad qualifications.

Its hardly a standardisation (although standards are not such a bad thing!), but a theorisation and research of bushcraft...looking at its history, its accosiated cultures, practices, principles, with some applied experiences, ethnographic fieldwork and some writing. It in no way could be mistaken for a 'training' program for bushcraft skills. Its a deeper exploration. And so, for example someone might wish to study that principles, practices and ethnography of Sami Kuksa carving and then how it relates to modern bushcraft...or they may want to study cultures of trapping, and things like the old-countryside knowledge of our own British countryside, that wil die away in the next 10 yrs. Indigeniety and our own inginous knowledge of the uk that has been lost...even down to our guiding stories of how to make fire such as we find in the hermeric Hymes....believe me, it wont replace solid bushcraft practioce, or the fantatsic NCFEs that are already out there, but will help to contextualise, why and how and from where are the practice coming from etc.

Lisa

I hope it makes a bit more sense?​

 

[British Red]

The point is Lisa that people can already study, research and document any or all of those things, without having to pay for the privilege. I can refer you, for example, to the in depth study of rushlights by our own Tombear. All the positives you describe already happen, so what does bringing it "into the academe" add other than expense and restriction?

 

[Mesquite]

I hope it makes a bit more sense?

Nope... not one little bit of what you said makes any sense in the terms of bushcraft. My mind started going blank when I started reading things like PG level, NCFE level, theorisation, accosiated cultures, indigeniety contextualise etc etc etc.

Years ago I used to teach stained glass techniques and construction as an evening class to learners who wanted to do it as a hobby. They had no interest whatsoever in gaining qualifications in it, it was purely an activity they really enjoyed doing and I enjoyed teaching it that way. However because the government of the time felt that colleges had to really educate people to justify their subsidies etc I was forced to start teaching it in a more formal structured way with lesson plans, learner objectives and the like the students didn't enjoy it any longer and stopped coming. End result the class folded due to lack of interest because it was no longer a fun thing to do for the students.

No doubt you might find someone who might be interested in doing something like you've suggested and good luck with it but I honestly think it's a waste of time as the pool of people you have to draw on is very small.

 

[lisa]

OK, thank you folks, points taken, I think I will gracefully retreat at this point !

Thanks for your time/interest nevertheless, appreciated.

 

[Goatboy]

My take on the OP was that would folk be interested in getting a recognised qualification. It seems that some folk set themselves up as "experts" and open a school because the read the Lofty Wiseman book and bought the Commando comic while they were at school. Used to get some coming into my shop to get equipment and ask to leave fliers and after talking to them you got the sneaking feeling that they wouldn't last too long out there.
It seems (I may be wrong) from a lot of the replies that a fair few of us are older and cost was an issue. Were we filling out thinking it as a hobby or career change option? I'd be interested to see if a younger crowd would see it as a career step to get their foot in the door. I certainly wouldn't want a bit of paper if it was just as a hobby, which for me it's all it ever will be know.

 

[Quixoticgeek]

For those suggesting NVQ's, there is a problem with NVQ's, and I say this as someone who has 2 NVQ's and a GNVQ.

Ask your average employer what an NVQ is and they'll think for a moment then come up with something like "Not Very Qualified?" "Non Valued Qualification?"?

In recent years things like the National Qualifications Framework have come in, but they are still poorly understood by many, and you end up with "What's this Level 3 NVQ you've got?" "That's the equivalent of an A-Level".

So by bringing things into PgC, Ma or PhD is useful as people understand them. Quite what you would write a 100000 word PhD thesis on in a Bushcraft context, I look forward to seeing. Even as the sort of sad geek that's read up on these things, I had to just investigate NCFE's...

I recently decided that I would go back to college and as such am doing an ABC Level 2 Certificate in Arboriculture, partly cos I am interested in trees, and partly to meet people. The latter hasn't happened, but I do seem to talk latin to a lot more trees now. I would love to take my learning further, but on the very low income I'm on, I'm not sure how I could pay to learn. Not to mention, what is the obvious career progression for a Dr Quixoticgeek PhD (Bushcraft)... Or even Quixoticgeek PgC, BEng, Cert Arb (RFS)...

Sorry if this comes across as a bit sceptical, I look forward to seeing how the ideas progress, and would certainly be interested in learning more.

Thanks

Julia

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Its a great idea.

NVQs are just so say practical, in my limited experience with them, Chimpanzees are herded into an exam room, they are taken though a past paper, discussing the answers, and then sit a multiple choice question test which gives the chimps the equivalent to an A level...Hardly expert inspiring.

That isn't how an NVQ or GNVQ should work. NVQ's are assessed by an assessor and by putting together a portfolio of evidence. My NVQ level 2 was in Support IT, which meant dealing with problems, so I had print outs of emails showing me fixing things, then there were times when I was called out to fix a computer, and the assessor would come with me and watch me fix it, noting that I did everything. There were problems tho, as the qualification was mandated by my employer, but was below my skillset, so I had difficulty finding evidence for where I couldn't fix something and had to handle it. So in the end there becomes a certain amount of acting. On one occasion I build a PC watched by my Assessor, and it all worked, meaning we had nothing to show how I handled things not working. We ended up with an almost "Look over there!" and while my back was turned, he unplugged something and then I had to work out what... Obviously at higher levels it's not quite so childish, but it does put some perspective on it.

There shouldn't be any Exams on an NVQ, it's vocational, that's the point...

J

 

[pentrekeeper]

I can understand the concerns being expresses here, but please understand that I am not talking about defining, regulating, standardising or 'imposing' anything. I am simply someone who, as a bushcraft practitioner and educator for the past 18 years, and more recently an academic, thought wouldnt it be amazing if we could get bushcraft inside the academy at PG level. That way it sits there for all those who are interested, internationally, in further researching the myriad of topics that bushcraft speaks to. Its not excluding anyone since, IF this gets any further, essentially anyone with a decent level of experience and certainly with NCFEs can apply...no need for any undergrad qualifications.

Its hardly a standardisation (although standards are not such a bad thing!), but a theorisation and research of bushcraft...looking at its history, its accosiated cultures, practices, principles, with some applied experiences, ethnographic fieldwork and some writing. It in no way could be mistaken for a 'training' program for bushcraft skills. Its a deeper exploration. And so, for example someone might wish to study that principles, practices and ethnography of Sami Kuksa carving and then how it relates to modern bushcraft...or they may want to study cultures of trapping, and things like the old-countryside knowledge of our own British countryside, that wil die away in the next 10 yrs. Indigeniety and our own inginous knowledge of the uk that has been lost...even down to our guiding stories of how to make fire such as we find in the hermeric Hymes....believe me, it wont replace solid bushcraft practioce, or the fantatsic NCFEs that are already out there, but will help to contextualise, why and how and from where are the practice coming from etc.

Lisa

I hope it makes a bit more sense?​

If the academia was indeed the high institution it claims to be I could understand the desire for what you are aiming at, but sadly it is not.

I am a firm believer that knowledge and information should be freely available to everyone, with some exceptions such as military research.

However, in the UK it is not, it is jealously guarded by the institutions that now charge £9k for access to it and the issuing of a degree. This has been further eroded by the sheer diversity of “new” subjects you can obtain a degree in, with a lot of them pretty useless, only provided to appeal to a wider audience for purely economic gain.

The history and background will already be documented in cultural history, practical skills do die out, and even if they have been documented there will inevitably be a lack of “teachers” of the old skills that are no longer needed as society further develops and progresses.

Yes I’m afraid I have a cynical viewpoint of what you are aiming at.

However, if you were going to pull together the information and publish it in a book or series of books that would be available to the general public that would be a different situation altogether and one I would wholly support.

 

[Wayland]

Snip> Wayland, thats great that your pictures improved once you felt you stopped talking BS about them, but not sure that this reflects the whole of the academic experience .. I understand what you are getting at, and I personally think that attempting to bridge the gap between academia and practice is a very good thing. I mean, Outdoor Education is very firmly rooted in the academy, yet also relatively recent. This doesn't mean, however, that those with degree or post-grad qualifications in Outdoor Ed only know how to talk about it, it means they have learned to be reflective within their practice (not to suggest this only possible in the academy of course!). Also, who said anything about 'defining' bushcraft, but we have to call it something just as this forum is indeed called 'Bushcraft UK', without claiming to defining what it is?

Anyway...a rushed response/ thoughts...

Best!
Lisa

Snip> My mind started going blank when I started reading things like PG level, NCFE level, theorisation, accosiated cultures, indigeniety contextualise etc etc etc.<Snip

My point exactly.

 

[Native Nathan]

hmmm. would this cost me to do it? And if so what benefit would I get from possessing it?

I mean I am currently studying a degree course now, at the end (If I am successful in passing) I am almost guaranteed a job (That's just how my particular Degree works) so apart form having a few letters after my name, how would this course benefit me, such as it would prepare you for an XYZ job role. etc...

After all all of can go to a wooded area and practice skills for free.

I'm not sure about others, but for me personally, I see bushcraft as an enjoyment, a set of skills which I have learnt and am continually learning, that I will pass on to my children, skills which from the existence of mankind up until as recently as 200 years ago were common knowledge and considered a normal part of every day life.
An example of this is lighting a fire, how many of us (Outside of the bushcraft community) can honestly say they could light a fire without matches or a lighter. yet this was a part of everyday normal life for most people.

Yes I am interested, having a HE level qualification if a subject I am passionate about, sounds fantastic as long as it doesn't turn into a chore ..

 

[Dave]

Its already done in Canada. Tim of Jack Mountain Bushcraft offer courses to students that give them credits at accredited colleges.

Its also already done over here, as well with reputable bushcraft schools, who offer courses such as practical ethnobotany and plant identification, understanding the properties of plants trees and fungi. 8-12 month courses. With an NCFE 2Q level 4 qualification at the end of it.

Whats the difference between what Lisa is suggesting and the above?

 

[Tiley]

Observations withdrawn.

 

[pentrekeeper]

Its already done in Canada. Tim of Jack Mountain Bushcraft offer courses to students that give them credits at accredited colleges.

Its also already done over here, as well with reputable bushcraft schools, who offer courses such as practical ethnobotany and plant identification, understanding the properties of plants trees and fungi. 8-12 month courses. With an NCFE 2Q level 4 qualification at the end of it.

Whats the difference between what Lisa is suggesting and the above?

Simply the breadth and depth of the course, not to mention the cost which is the overriding motivation.

The point is that virtually all of us thirst for knowledge and information to further our enjoyment of this activity, and we are fortunate to find people and resources willing to share such for free.

The members on this forum are exceedingly knowledgeable, generous and helpful and it is this that builds a good community of like minded people.

I can&#8217;t speak for others, but I do not want the subject and practise of bushcraft formalising with the associated costs that would be involved.

You mention ethnobotany, I am certain that the tribes living in the jungles around the world have a great understanding of their local plants and know how to use them for nutrition and medicinal purposes, but I am also certain not one of the tribal members will hold a qualification.

 

[Dave]

I can&#8217;t speak for others, but I do not want the subject and practise of bushcraft formalising with the associated costs that would be involved.

Every course you attend costs money.

 

[Wayland]

Every meet up only costs camping fees.

 

[Dave]

Every meet up only costs camping fees.

This line of conversation is beginning to make little sense to me, so I'll withdraw.
Schools charge fees.
Qualifications are already given out.
Is charging fees the innapropriate part, or giving out qualifications for the skills learned?

 

[pentrekeeper]

Every course you attend costs money.

Which is probably why I don't go on any, I need helpful information not tuition.

Schools charge fees.
Qualifications are already given out.
Is charging fees the innapropriate part, or giving out qualifications for the skills learned?

Schools charge for adult education vocational courses, fair enough if you want to attend a course and are happy with the fee being charged.

The qualifications is a bit of a grey area and is a somewhat contentious subject with regard to bushcraft and survival skills.
For example - I don't need or want a piece of paper stating that I can start a fire without a source of ignition, what purpose does it serve, none, well other than provide some tinder for the future maybe.