are stick tangs realy weaker?

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Siberianfury

Native
Jan 1, 1970
1,534
6
mendip hills, somerset
ok so, i have two favorite belt knives, one is a full tang BG bushcrafter, the other is a stick tang lauri pricision tempered puukko made by myself with a ferrule and peened tang. the BG is great for battoning and allaround tasks, but the puukko is more controlable and a better slicer (which is generaly what i like in a knife).

anyway, i hear alot of people saying that a stick tang is weaker ect and a full tang is a superiour design, however i have broken a full tang whilst battoning, the scale popped off. i have not yet had any problems with stick tangs.

its funny people should say a stick tang is weaker, because of swords and billhooks being made from stick tangs, yet for some reason we need to have a full tang on our belt knives, if your comfortable with chopping and splitting with a stick tang then why worry when its being used for battening and carving?

so, has anyone ever broken a stick tang or full tang knife? and i dont mean the blade snapping i mean an actual tang/handle failure.
 
Perhaps it was more down to the construction of the knife than it being weaker than a stick tang as to why the scales popped off, i use both style when carving, but I don't baton with either, use and axe or predominately I use wedges made from stick to split, I think that both styles have the strengths and weakness but they are so different as to almost make it impossible to test? one is a slab of steel, in a wood(or what have you) sandwich the other a spike in sleeping bag, Its the construction that makes the big difference, and peoples experience with differing levels of production quality, and the users skill with the tool as to weather he /she will have a good time with it or bad. not quite sure what I'm trying to say really other than I don't think one is stronger than the other any abuse will damage a knife.
 
I suspect you cannot reduce it to a single factor: stick or full tang. The way the blade evolves in the stick tang (with straight angles or with a curve) probably matters quite a bit in the way energy get diffused. Also the hardness of the wood must add to the strength of the stick tang. A G10 block for the handle would be very strong.

Then in overall design most stick tangs focus on narrower blades. But if you look at the enzo nordic or taiga, I suspect they might be quite close in robustness to full tang.

Note however that a scale popping off is less handicapping than a blade rupture.
 
full tangs have three or four times the steel of stick tangs, how can it not be stronger? (unless of course whatever the handle is made from is stronger than steel, in which case a stick tang would be stronger as there's less steel getting in the way)
a stick tang is a bit stronger than it needs to be for the work it's put too, if you put a full tang knife to the same work it'll be a hell of a lot stronger than it needs to be, so it's all pretty irrelavent in the real world IMHO.

stuart
 
BTW josh, if you're breaking the scales off your knife whilst batoning then you're batoning all wrong mate!

stuart
 
a stick tang is a bit stronger than it needs to be for the work it's put too, if you put a full tang knife to the same work it'll be a hell of a lot stronger than it needs to be, so it's all pretty irrelavent in the real world IMHO.

stuart

id say that was a pretty good outlook on it :)

the fulltang in question (i will not mention the brand) was broken from being used for battoning everyday for long periods of time for about six weeks, the knifes main purpose was splitting wood to feed the wood burner and the fire, this job had to be done alot, each day, the theory i had was that the shocks sent from the battoning (which i think in most cases was the proper technique) ended up cracking the scale which led to it falling off. a stick tang however is better for absorbing shocks as you can tell between the two when chopping.
 
...the fulltang in question (i will not mention the brand) was broken from being used for battoning everyday for long periods of time for about six weeks, the knifes main purpose was splitting wood to feed the wood burner and the fire, this job had to be done alot, each day, the theory i had was that the shocks sent from the battoning (which i think in most cases was the proper technique) ended up cracking the scale which led to it falling off.....

that's clearer josh, i misunderstood somewhat from your OP, i had visions of you hammering down on the handle of the knife when it broke rather than a gradual weekening over time. i've never had a great deal to do with full tangs myself but i can see that shock/vibrations could cause a problem in the long term.

stuart
 
I understand that the although a full tang has more metal and the blade is normally thicker and so is stronger it is also less flexible so could be prone to impact stresses more than a stick tang which are normally slightly thinner. The combination of the stick and handle material allow the knife to flex more under impact.

Having said that I did break one... I was battening a log (a bit too big) the knife got stuck, but I carried on anyway (beat the cr*p out of it) and it broke.
Helle where really good and replaced it. Photo below the the old and the new.

10022010339.jpg
 
I understand that the although a full tang has more metal and the blade is normally thicker and so is stronger it is also less flexible so could be prone to impact stresses more than a stick tang which are normally slightly thinner. The combination of the stick and handle material allow the knife to flex more under impact.

Having said that I did break one... I was battening a log (a bit too big) the knife got stuck, but I carried on anyway (beat the cr*p out of it) and it broke.
Helle where really good and replaced it. Photo below the the old and the new.

10022010339.jpg

realy a shame to see that james, helles are beautiful knives, but out of all the stick tangs i have heard of breaking the helles unfortunatly seem to have the biggest failure rate
 
As posted on t'other channel...

I have honestly used Stick tangs in the same way as full tangs. Ive used them sensibly and not so, and never broken one of the polars, karasandos, lauris, moras or my own flat stock and forged.

If they were weaker then the folks up in the Arctic using them under harsh temps and for real reasons would be redesigning them, not celebrating them. As would the English hedge layer with the bill hook as you say.

They are a joy to make and lighter to use. Tang width depth and length do help with strength though as does a softer heat treat. They basically have to be made right.

Plus, I am rather partial to the handle designs that other folks have come out with.

Keep on making Josh.
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It isn't just a matter of "stronger" or "weaker". It's already been said that there's more to it than just full tang or stick tang. Materials respond in different ways to different treatments. If a tang is not hardened you could bend it quite a bit without breaking it. Try that if it's hardened and it might shatter. Which is "stronger"? It might take more force to shatter the hardened steel but then it's broken and as like as not unusable, but you might be able just to ignore a small amount of bend in a tang. A small imperfection at the edge or in a feature such as a hole in the tang can form the starting point for a crack which, with flexing, can propagate all the way through the tang. Holes for fasteners etc. are more common on full tangs. Some steels are more prone to crack propagation than others, some much more.

My main gripe with stick tangs is that in heavy use they sometimes 'spring' hard enough in the hand to give a painful smack.

Agreed on the use of wedges in preference to needless damage to tools. :)
 
I have heard of breaking problems concerning factory made stick tangs, but never heard that about hand forged stick tang blades.
I never broke a knife and I try to put them only at tasks they will be able to manage without problems: as many said before, any tool has its tasks.

In order to trying to explain why ancient blades "dind't give problems" we have to know how blacksmith and bladesmith usually treated the blades.
In the old days, speaking of Scandinavia, blades were mainly laminated with iron sides and only the core made out of steel because it was really hard to find and very expencive.

A laminated blade, if properly made, will absorb far more the vibrations and will kick down them more due to the changing of material where the vibrations will spread. This is simply physic. In addition to this a blacksmith will apply a differencial tempering to a blade, taking to a good hardness only the cutting edge, leaving the rest of the blade softer and making the tang the softest possible.

A differencial tempering like this will be enough to guarantee good cutting ability together with a good flexibily and shocks absorbing capacity.

Ok, sorry for beeing so long, hope it wasn't too boring :)
 
Well....im no expert at all and dont even pretend to know what im on about but the knife which i use is neither tang or full tang....it made of one entire piece of steel.
no joints at all to break and the spring temper allows it to bend so much its silly. I only know that i have abused my knife and not worried about it breaking once. i have:

1. Used it as a machete to chop, de-branch logs.
2. Used it as a spear and thrown is maybe 50-60 times.
In the process bending the entire blade maybe 30 degrees. Link to video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XuUEbjU16w
3. Made a deep shallow in a log to sit on around the fire by simply hammering it like an axe. No probs at all
4. Splitting wood
5. Used it as a throwing knife

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Would love a custom full tang blade if any makers read this PM me!
 
full tangs have three or four times the steel of stick tangs, how can it not be stronger?

Because the amount of steel is not the only factor to strength, the condition of the steel is much more important. A stick tang with a spring tempered tang will be far stronger than a full tang that is hardened to 59-60 hrc.

You might say that a full tang with a spring temper will be stronger, but done properly they will both bend 90 degrees and not break. But with a spring temper the full tang's scales will be far more likely to have gaps appear between them and the tang.

So most are hardened to not be flexible due the inherant failure in design that means a flexible tang reduces the ability for the scales to stay on.

To be honest both a well made stick tang and a full tang will both be strong enough to batton without breaking, but the full tang will be more prone to having gaps open up between the scales and tang.
 
I have never broken either in all my long years of abusing knives.
The only problems I have ever had were with the handles - gapping on full tangs, splitting on stick tangs - and all were repairable with ease!
The only knife I have ever had fail to a - "not worth repairing" - state was one of those partial tang, hollw plastic handle "£5 Ramboo" knives....
I even failed to break the same kind of knife but with a metal handle (apart from the handle developing a slight, almost missable) bit of play.
I have trashed many knives BLADES noticably Fox ("Raids" model the blade shattered when I dropped it on concrete[!]) and a Tramontina copy of the Buck "Fronteersman" (I chopped into a green ash pole 3 times and 3 semi-circles of steel disapeared from the blade[!]) both seem to have been tempering/hardening issues.
I have even seen pictures of an MOD survival knife snapped in two!
The only stick tang knife that I have come across (personally) was my Mother-in-laws kitchen knife (Ivoreen handle sheffield carbon steel) which had the stick tang rust through and snap ...but that had only ever been used in food prep!
My 3 main users are - 1 stick tang (very wide) made from a cut down Cold Steel Carbon V SRK, a Pakistani "Damascus" full tang and a Mora "military" plastic handled partial tang. All get the same level of abuse. None show any sign of failing.
 
People often ignore some of the most salient arguments as to why hidden tang knives are/were so popular in most cultures.

Simple answer: economics.

Historically steel was expensive to produce and work, so why use more of it than you need to ?

That is also why many knives, axes and other tools were made from iron with a section of steel forge welded onto the business end.

Later on smiths would demonstrate skill and artistry with various patterns and whatnot, but the main underlying rationale was to minimise the use of an expensive material.

Same argument applies to grinds. The popularity of the Sandi grind seems to largely ignore the simply fact that it is the quickest and easiest method of grinding a bevel on a blade with the least material removed. It is also one of the weakest grinds it is possible to have right at the edge, but works wonderfully in the right context.

Other arguments come into the mix these days. Personally I prefer hidden tang knives because I like lighter working knives and I really appreciate having a beautiful piece of handle material running uninterrupted around a hidden tang. From a practical perspective I especially like this feature in very cold weather, where the spine of a full-tang knife could stick to your skin (another possible factor as to why the Scandinavians have been sticking tio hidden tangs knives for so long).

From the full tang perspective if the handle scales are quite straight grained along the length of the grip, where the pin holes interrupt the grain, you have a potentially inherent weak point under stress where all that happens is the grain of the timber fails during heavy shock/vibration. That shouldn't really be a surprise.

You often see a similar effect where someone used a 6mm drill to then fit a 6mm pin (you wouldn’t believe how many makers don’t use a reamer or who force their assembly together using clamps or even a hammer) your pins are basically constantly trying to force the hole they are fitted in to be wider, unless it was properly prepared. This is a depressingly common area of scale material failure.

If you want to hard use your knife then ask for Micarta scales and ask for the blade to be a few points softer, or differentially heat treated (or both), or accept the risk that by bashing the hell out of the knife you are choosing to deliberately introduce material failure.

If I take the Devil’s Advocate stance I have to ask why you were preparing so much wood for so long by batoning with a knife to begin with ?

The old saying of using the “right tool for the job” springs to mind, and I can think of few things less appealing than feeding a wood burner for any length of time with a knife and a baton, unless you had absolutely no alternative available.

By definition batoning is less efficient than using a larger blade, axe or machete, and it is also meant to be done on green wood. Seasoned wood introduces all kinds of issues since it is usually much harder and if it happens to also be knotty then you can literally blow a knife to bits going through it. That’s what an axe is for.

A good friend of mine who is an excellent maker recently asked my opinion when someone had requested a bushcraft knife in RWL34 hardened to 63RC from him.

I suggested he should tell the client to find another maker, since the likelihood is said knife will fail under any major stress (like batoning) although it would be a great slicing tool. The gamble the maker has to take is that everything will hold together when the materials are operating right at the upper limits they are capable of.

The trouble is in this day and age of so called super steels folks think they can get away with almost anything, and another simple fact is that if I gave anyone a 59RC and a 63RC knife and sent them away to play, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference in real use.

Bottom line – a blade hard enough to take and hold a good edge is easier to break, regardless of the steel it is made from. The rules apply to all steel and while some alloys are inherently tougher than others, the harder you take them the more likely they are to fail under high stress.

I often carry a pocket size hatchet because it is small enough to easily carry, it is socially acceptable and it can process firewood in a fraction of the time and with far less effort than a knife and baton. For particularly large pieces of wood I can use the hatchet to very quickly make a couple of timber wedges and tap said wedges with the poll to split the log.

I usually distill this whole debate down to a simple question: how strong does a working knife have to be ?

Full and hidden tang can both answer the brief in full, if well made. Either can also fail horribly, if made less well or when used inappropriately.

I view batoning as inappropriate use of a knife while others view it as an intrinsic part of bushcrafting.

My stance is that when batoning you risk your own safety (should the knife fail or if you miss the blade and clout your own hand with the baton - I've seen it done several times). You also voluntarily choose to risk one of your most useful tools (should the knife fail) as well as the reputation of the maker who you commissioned it from (should the knife fail) when you could simply carry and use something more appropriate and infinitely more efficient for processing wood to begin with.

I don’t buy it and never have. Yes, I'd do it in an emergency but bushcraft is a leisure activity of choice and so the option to take appropriate kit is one we all have.

Hidden and full tang can both exceed the requirements placed upon them, and they can also both fail if the stresses imposed on them exceed maximum capabilities of the materials or design.

Put simply, if you use a knife for its main purpose (slicing) it wouldn’t have failed to begin with regardless of the style of tang.

There are far too many variables to give a succinct answer and the biggest variable of all is the human element introduced by the knife user...

Knives are for slicing.

Anything else requires a different tool to be safe and efficient.

I'll get my coat...
 
While I don't know enough tech info to really enter into the which is better debate, I completely agree with you Xunil regarding battening, I just don't get, as you say yes if you had no other choice, but then if your battening, you have access to wood and could there for fashion a couple of simple wedges to split the log? perhaps a topic for a separate thread, but i just don't get it?
 
Battoning to split a stubbon bit of kindling - yes :) qiuck ,easy and not too much abuse
Battoning through 8" logs - no:) - that is for axe or wedges

IMHO :D
 

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