Archaic coats - stylish, but effective?

[big_swede]

I'd like to jump on the bandwagon here and say that I don't think that that coat should be ruled out as an outdoor garment. Why? I'd like to give reasons for that:

1) The Russian infantrymen didn't have any trouble fighting in their winters whilst wearing massive woolen greatcoats.

2) I have a selection of WW2 soldier biographies. In one, aptly named "Seven Roads to Hell" by Donald Burgess which describes the 101 US Airborne divisions struggle to keep Bastogne away from German hands, Burgess writes of how cold he and his fellow men were and how much they desired to get their hands on "one of those big russian greatcoats."

If a soldier can fight in one, I do believe that a bushcrafter can bushcraft in one.

I rest my case.

Adam

So? If cavemen could have written something that would last to our days I bet you could find a quote saying: "Darn, those straw insulated fur coats that the tribe next door use seem really nice!", it doesn't mean it's a good choice... The question here isn't really if it's possible to do bushcraft (what ever that means) in a garment, rather if it's a practical choice. You could obviously do it in a fur loin cloth, but why put yourself thru it?

And about the russian infantry men, since there isn't a control group here, it isn't really a viable statement. Maybe if there was a russian brigade fighting in a shell/layer system we could do a comparison? My theory is that the russian infantry was so many, it doesn't really matter what they wore. Although that's discussion I'm not interested in, since I'm happy with my mixed clothes, that is, the best ideas and materials from tradtional clothing, combined with newer technology and designs. Technology has a trait of being progressive (though there is some reluctancy around that fact in some groups)

Honestly, you most admit you could be better of for $240?

But of course, each one to his own, if you wanna look like a reenactor, go ahead! I'm just sharing my thoughts here.. My biggest problem would probably be lugging my body around in it with out getting sweaty. Even in fierce winter I use a cotton outer layer with only woolen long underwear.

(And what I mean about the non-existing function of the cape is simply that since none of the layers are waterproof it's just dead weight in the long run, which during a prolonged rainstorm will prove to be multiple of the dry coat..)

 

[big_swede]

In a similar vein, cowboys often wear oilskin jackets of a similar design. They cover the entire body while riding (and walking, for that matter) protecting from rain and allowing the rider to push though bush and tree branches without snagging or being injured. Add a wide-brimmed cowboy hat, and you're well protected from the elements, at the cost of some weight.

And the weight won't matter as they are mounted. Compare the oilskin cloth to woolen cloth and you will note a couple of important differences.

-the oilskin is heavily shrunk and heavily impregnated cotton. Really hardwearing stuff. Will stand a lot of abuse and a lot of rain. It's also quite slippery leaving branches slipping of.
-the wool isn't as impregnated and surely not as tough, get caught in heavy branch with the woolen cloth and you will damage it, probably not rip it but it will get damaged. Wool is 132 times more likely to get caught in brush than oilskin.

Compare the areas of use, when riding I can guarantee you will rarely risk getting snagged at shoulder height. Also today you will see alot more yellow plastic dusters attached to the back of the saddles than traditional oilskins (have a friend who works as a wrangler in wyoming, and noticed this on a brief visit). Also the terrain differs from cattle drives to european bushcraft.

 

[jamesraykenney]

So stay away from the fire?

WAY, away from the fire... Like I said, YOU may not think it is very hot, but the synthetic, may be melting...

Think about this...

Haven't you ever waved your hand through a fire, and hardly felt any heat?
Try that with a piece of synthetic cloth, and you will have melted cloth.

 

[jamesraykenney]

In a similar vein, cowboys often wear oilskin jackets of a similar design. They cover the entire body while riding (and walking, for that matter) protecting from rain and allowing the rider to push though bush and tree branches without snagging or being injured. Add a wide-brimmed cowboy hat, and you're well protected from the elements, at the cost of some weight.

They will often have a split up the back so that it does not pull off of your legs when riding.
They have a strap that you can fasten to close up the back when you are walking.

Hey... I AM from Texas after all!

 

[Longstrider]

I actually have an old British Army Issue Greatcoat, and it really is a "great coat".
I bought it for those days when the weather seems to be driving icicles into your skin and when I'm going to be stood around not doing too much to keep myself warm.
Not a garment thats going to be too comfortable if your working hard, but great for keeping out the cold once you've stopped working for the day.

Edit to add : The prices I can see on the websites linked to are truly frightening! I picked my greatcoat up at the local army surplus store for a whole £20 !

 

[spamel]

The woolen cape works because it is almost vertical off of the shoulders. The outer cape may get wet, but then it sheds water before getting through to the inner layer. Not sure I've explained that too well, but trust me, it does work! My jacket works a treat, but the wind stopping ability, well that's another matter!

the cowboy coats are something else. If you are looking for one, try drovers coat or stockmans coat, aswell as full length waxed coat or barbour, drizabone, etc!

 

[Eric_Methven]

You could obviously do it in a fur loin cloth, but why put yourself thru it?

Just for the fun of it. I'd do it and call it experimental archaeology. Just to get a snippet of what it might have felt like for those who lived in times past. For me, undertaking the total experience helps me get an insight into not only the skills, but also the emotion and spirituality of people who went before me.

Honestly, you most admit you could be better of for $240?

I wouldn't dream of spending that much, but I would get the raw material and make one for myself. More authentic that way too.

(And what I mean about the non-existing function of the cape is simply that since none of the layers are waterproof it's just dead weight in the long run, which during a prolonged rainstorm will prove to be multiple of the dry coat..)

The woolen layers, if left untreated will not be waterproof, but the application of lanolin (in the form of concentrated fabric conditioner) will make it showerproof.

I do think it is well overpriced for a coat. However it is being marketed as a fashion accessory. None the less, it is still a superb bit of tried and tested outerwear made from natural material. It has it's place in history and it also has it's place in bushcrafty type lifestyles.

Eric

 

[Mike Ameling]

Yes, the price is high compared to mil sup. But most everything is high priced compared to military surplus.

What you are paying for is a combination of the cost of the original wool material, the cut/styling for a specific early time period, and the hand sewing. The price is comparable or even cheaper than a custom taylored suit overcoat. But it's designed and marketed for those individuals doing specific historical reenactments.

The cheap alternative is the military surplus wool greatcoat - especially those from northern countries and back a few decades into the 1900's. The rest is all "style".

There are some pictures of a Matchcoat or Watchcoat on one vendor's site that I know of. As I recall, they even have instructions on how to drape/belt your blanket on to work as a matchcoat. It is the Wilde Weavery site. A web search should bring it up. They make/sell hand-woven fabrics/blankets for specific early time periods, so be prepared for some "sticker shock". Quality reproductions of 100+ year old clothing ain't cheap!

Just my humble ramblings to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - out in the Hinterlands

p.s. where I currently DO NOT need a wool coat but DO NEED a cowboy rain slicker (lots of thunderstorms) - wait a minute, I already do have an 1870's style cowboy rain slicker

 

[nickg]

Just for the fun of it. I'd do it and call it experimental archaeology. Just to get a snippet of what it might have felt like for those who lived in times past. For me, undertaking the total experience helps me get an insight into not only the skills, but also the emotion and spirituality of people who went before me.
Eric

Eric if you are serious then get in touch with Torjusg in Norway http://www.gaaren.no/ cause thats exactly what he does. Not sure that id have the stamina to keep up with him in summer though Im on his winter survival course in january.

Id be interested to hear from anyone who has done one of his caveman expeditions though.

Cheers
Nick

 

[Atellus]

Thank you all for the very interesting and enlightening discussion. I'm rather taken with the idea of a "modern" version of the greatcoat, but would have to research the subject in greater depth before I formed any opinions on the preferred composition and design (although I don't see the harm in including a few stylish elements, like the cut of the collar and cuffs, for example. I sometimes think that much outdoor clothing, if it isn't garishly coloured, is rather plain and boring and I can't really see why it should be. A little style wouldn't interfere with practicality, surely?)

The matchcoat seems like an excellent idea. A single sheet of fabric that could be used for everything from a coat, sleeping bag, ground sheet, tent, bag or tablecloth - well, maybe not a tablecloth, unless you're having guests over to your patch of woodland. I can see how the storm cape of the greatcoat would contribute to shedding water and so on, but again, with reference to the matchcoat, am taken with the idea that the cape folds up over the head. This, of course, is a design we see today in many coats with a zipped hood that unfolds and lies across the back and shoulders. Perhaps a clasp of some sort could be built in to the edges of the cape to secure it against the wind when used as a hood?

Again, a fascinating discussion, not least for the discussions of whether some types of clothing are intrinsically unsuitable for living and working in the wild (given the apparent on-going debate over the definition of "bushcraft", I opted for "living and working" instead!) I think I would agree with those who suggest that it all depends on what you're doing. Chopping wood and foraging, maybe not, but wandering around in the cold and wet, yes, and when not in use, it's a blanket or tent, like the matchcoat.

On the subject of silk clad Mongolians, the shirt is said to have been worn against the skin when going into battle in preference to cotton. The reason is barbed heads on arrows. If you survive the initial impact, most of the damage is done when the arrow head is removed and this may yet be fatal. The advantage of silk is not only that it won't be carried into the wound and lodge there and cause infection, (cotton fibres are the least of your worries if you can't even get the arrow head out!) but that the silk will be carried into the wound wrapped around the arrow head itself. Removal is thus easier and less dangerous as you simply pull on the surrounding silk to draw the head out, rather than pull the head itself or try to cut it out.

 

[Tengu]

Id like to see a pic of this matchcoat

 

[Mike Ameling]

Here's a link to the Wilde Weavery site showing a guy putting his on.

http://www.wildeweavery.com/matchcoats.htm

Their matchcoat is a blanket made to a smaller size - somewhere around 60 inches by 64 inches or so.

But it's very simple to try it out yourself with most any military surplus cot-sized blanket. Just fold about 1/3 of it over at the top. This part will drape over your shoulders, with that extra folded over length being an extra "cape". Adjust the amount you fold over so that the bottom hangs down as far as you want it on your legs. Now drape it over your shoulders, and bring the top corners together under your chin. Pin it together there - so that it will now hang on your body. Now take a belt or length of cord and tie it around the blanket and your waist. Gather the blanket together and overlap the edges in front as you tighten it up. After you get the belt tight, pull a little of the blanket up above the belt - to give you a little ... room ... to move around comfortably. Notice how your arms are now in a loose sleave made by the blanket being draped over your shoulders?

There's your matchcoat or watchcoat. If you need a hood, just grab the blanket at the back of your neck and pull it up over your head. If you folded over a long blanket to start with, you can pull that extra "cape" up over your head.

Basically, it's glorified way to wear a blanket. You just add a pin to close it and hold it around your neck, and a belt to hold it around your body. The rest is just style and adaptation to the material you have on hand.

It's pretty versatile and adjustable. The American Indians quickly adopted the wool trade blanket as an outer garment when they became available, and they wore it in a number of different ways - including this version of a matchcoat.

Traditionally, a matchcoat was made from a light weight but tighter weave wool material instead of a blanket. Many were made from a suit coat type wool fabric, or Peacoat material. You can use a blanket, but it can get hot and heavy unless you are in a pretty cold environment. And wind tends to blow through the loose weave/nap of many wool blankets.

But blankets still work well. Just ask all those ... refugees ... that you see walking around after a natural disaster.

Just some more humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - who's often curled up with his "blankie" out here in the Hinterlands

 

[Tengu]

Clear as mud!

Ill have to experiment with my plaid wrap.

I generaly fold the square into a rectangle and pin on one shoulder. This is a bit more complex.

But we should bring this back into fashion; its both stylish and practical

 

[Templar]

For those who are interested in a little "historical" clothing you could always go with a Surtout, these were the G-tex of their day and are very simple to make, but as you read you will note there is a small problem when it comes to fire...

....1.Take one large cotton/linen shirt, a little larger than your normal size.
2. remove all extra material like pockets, cuffs, etc.
- cuffs should be open and unrestrictive
- stitch down the collar
- it should look like a large bed gown with wide sleeves.
3. boil some linseed oil and add a little "lithage of gold"(its a metal salt that stops mildew and the like from my research), Then paint it onto the fabric with a brush, when it is well soaked with the solution, hang it up to gry so as no part touches any part of itself.
4. When dry give it another coat, add any dye you wish at this stage.
5. when dry you now have a completed Surtout, gather it at the waist with a belt or tie it and it is ready to wear.
Any waterproof items can be made in the same way, Eg: ground sheets, tinder pouches, shelter sheets, hoods, etc....

This was how the men of Rodgers Ranging Company were instructed to make water proof clothing guring the French and Indian war, and by all reports it worked very well, it is very light and would roll up to take very little space,as you can see it is a rather flamable item but it is no different to the "Drizabone" or oilskin type clothing on the market at the moment infact the recipe is pretty much the same for these garments.

I hope you find this useful...

Karl

 

[Eric_Methven]

I believe a mixture of 50% wax and 50% paraffin (kerosene for out colonial cousins) melted in a double boiler over an open fire (don't try it indoors) works. It is brushed on in the same way and allowed to dry. Also good for tarps and Duluth type packs.

Eric

 

[Mike Ameling]

... paraffin (kerosene for out colonial cousins) ... /QUOTE]

Also called COAL OIL by us Hicks back in the Sticks!


Most of the old waterproofing methods/chemicals are flamible. That's why various flame retardant chemicals are added to tents/tarps and outdoor clothing. And linseed oil is very flamible. A rag soaked in linseed oil, crumpled up, and tossed into a corner can (and probably will) self-ignite in time. Woodworkers are always being cautioned about this KNOWN HAZARD.

It's a choice the individual has to make. A lot of things and materials were used in the past simply because that was what was available at the time. We now have more choices.

Mikey - out in them thar hills - in the Hinterlands

 

[Greg]

Escape & Evasion wearing only British WW1 battle dress - which incorporates the "Great Coat" is always an experience!
Only slightly itchy, Honest Governor!!!!
But very warm especially after running....

 

[British Red]

I think that style of coat is eminently practical - when worn with gaiters or long boots it completely eliminates the need for waterproof trousers or the "damp thigh" issue. Perhaps not in wool but in wax (cattlemans coat style) or ventile etc. for winter use in the rain as a shell jacket it would work extremely well

Red