Archaic coats - stylish, but effective?

[Atellus]

Hello again. Thread two up and running already!

I came across this
http://www.ctraders.com/greatcoat.html
and was intrigued.

Would such a garment be of value today, in comparison with the vast selection of modern garments (which often as not cost as much if not more), composed of various artificial and/or complex combinations of materials. I note that some field craft and outdoor clothing in general is still made from various types of wools and treated fabrics in addition to wonder materials like gortex. Would such a coat be worth it's weight and volume in one's pack, or would it's only value be aesthetic vanity appeal?

Note that, for the purposes of discussion, I'm not ruling out the possibility that such a garment might be treated after manufacture to improve qualities such as water-resistance.

Cheers

 

[big_swede]

Although wool is a great material it seems that the design would make this coat impractical. It's too long and the cape over the shoulders doesn't really have any function.

 

[decorum]

Hi Atellus,
I don't know whether you're specifically looking for a woollen garment or that particular style of coat. I've had one of these http://www.barbour.com/index.cfm?fu...uctID=234&PSubCategoryID=19&SearchTerm=drover for many a long year. I was fortunate enough to find mine at a very reduced price and all I can say is that I wouldn't be disappointed if I'd paid the full price - it even earns its place in the dry; when I use it as a 'picnic blanket' or as an over blanket if required.

 

[spamel]

Although wool is a great material it seems that the design would make this coat impractical. It's too long and the cape over the shoulders doesn't really have any function.

I disagree. I have a woolen jacket which has a cape front and rear, although not loose like that one. It is sewn in around the arms so only the bottom is free. It does shed rain and it hasn't been proofed by me. I was using mine during the large rain storms last month and didn't get extremely wet, although a few drops came through. My shoulders were completely dry.

 

[weekend_warrior]

Greatcoats where worn by both side in the american civil war and loved by both - designed for use in extreme cold too. The cape was to keep the cold and wet out, as Spamel rightly says, and the collar comes up high for warmth. Very heavy, but very good. In a modern day setting? I'd probably opt for layers and a Swanni instead...

 

[Mirius]

I'd say it's horses for courses. The weight would be the negative for me, though it's interesting in other ways.

 

[fred gordon]

Interesting thread. I would think the greatcoat would be good if you weren't moving about too much, otherwise it would be a bit heavy. The Barber I don't like as I always find them rather cold and clammy. Personally I'm in the Swanni camp here, especially the mosgiel.

 

[decorum]

Yup, fully agree that barbours can feel cold and a bit clammy but I'm a hot bod so it suits me. Having said that, if I were in the market for a similar use jacket/coat today I would definately look closely at Swanndri products. The other major bug-bears of wax-cotton jackets - for me anyway - is the tendency to overheat with exertion and the discomfort when wearing a pack.

 

[big_swede]

I disagree. I have a woolen jacket which has a cape front and rear, although not loose like that one. It is sewn in around the arms so only the bottom is free. It does shed rain and it hasn't been proofed by me. I was using mine during the large rain storms last month and didn't get extremely wet, although a few drops came through. My shoulders were completely dry.

Still, compared to a shell jacket, you would probably be as dry, but with less weight and less risk for getting tangled in branches (the woods around here are a bit brushy). And hopefully at less than $240, and less than 2 kilos. I'm not saying what to wear. But maybe there is a reason why it's not commonly used anymore The length is the biggest drawback as I see it.

Having said that I still use a wax jacket from time to time, and half of my clothes when tramping consists of wool, so no disrespect to traditional clothing. But a great coat for bushcraft? No thanks!

 

[Mike Ameling]

The Great Coat was the current fashion/design/style of its day, from the 1600's on up well into the 1900's. The formal suit overcoat, and the trenchcoat were developed from it over the years.

But modern coats and materials have it beat on most every level - weight, water resistance, wind resistance, etc. So the obvious choice would be to go with a modern coat. But some choose the older styles and materials for their "historical" appeal.

A classic example of this is a Watch coat or Match coat. Versions of it have been used for centuries, but they started showing up in written documents during the 1600's and 1700's - especially with the military. Basically, it is a wool blanket draped over your shoulders like a shawl, and then wrapped/belted around your waist to hold it tighter to the body. A broach or pin of some sort helps keep it held together across your chest. So think of it as a long shawl that you pin in front and wrap a belt around.

Once you get used to putting it on and moving/working in it, it is a great simple "coat" - and an extra blanket when it's time to sleep. And it's very versatile. You can bring it all the way up over your head like a hood, or over your shoulders with an extra "cape", or dropped down around your waist and tucked into your belt - all depending upon the weather and your work/exertion. Tighter weave lighter blankets work better for this.

The big drawback is that to other people you will look like a homeless person or refugee!

The Great Coat, like the Watchcoat or Matchcoat, have thier places in history, and can be an option in these modern times. But coats made of modern materials and of modern design have them beat for weight, size/bulk, water repelancy, wind resistance, and style.

Just some choices to consider.

Mikey - out in the Hinterlands

 

[jamesraykenney]

Although wool is a great material it seems that the design would make this coat impractical. It's too long and the cape over the shoulders doesn't really have any function.

The second cape keeps the lower one drier... Having multiple layers makes it dry out faster too...
I do not know if this one is long enough, but I have heard that one purpose of the old full length capes, was that you could pull them up over your head to protect yourself from the rain.

Most design elements of old clothes were functional...
Neckties are descended from scarves, and, from what I have heard, were turned into the thinker wrapping around the neck as a measure against having your throat slit(silk being very resistant to cutting in multiple layers)!

 

[spamel]

Silk shirts were used by, I think, Genghis Khans' troops. Didn't stop the arrows, but they were easily removed and didn't push too far in. I saw it on the telly and that is what i seem to remember, although I may have it wrong a bit.

 

[JulianWormwood]

Perhaps an old fashioned great coat made from modern materials? Goretex or equivalent outer, a good wicking inner, possibly some fleece inbetween for warmth. I for one would love something like that.

 

[addyb]

I'd like to jump on the bandwagon here and say that I don't think that that coat should be ruled out as an outdoor garment. Why? I'd like to give reasons for that:

1) The Russian infantrymen didn't have any trouble fighting in their winters whilst wearing massive woolen greatcoats.

2) I have a selection of WW2 soldier biographies. In one, aptly named "Seven Roads to Hell" by Donald Burgess which describes the 101 US Airborne divisions struggle to keep Bastogne away from German hands, Burgess writes of how cold he and his fellow men were and how much they desired to get their hands on "one of those big russian greatcoats."

If a soldier can fight in one, I do believe that a bushcrafter can bushcraft in one.

I rest my case.

Adam

 

[Mirius]

Silk shirts are preferred in battle because cotton and linen threads that get taken into the wound by the arrows cause infections and the like. Silk doesn't do this for some reason I don't understand, but it was the choice for naval officers for this reason too, though there it was against musket balls not arrows.

 

[jamesraykenney]

The Great Coat was the current fashion/design/style of its day, from the 1600's on up well into the 1900's. The formal suit overcoat, and the trenchcoat were developed from it over the years.

But modern coats and materials have it beat on most every level - weight, water resistance, wind resistance, etc. So the obvious choice would be to go with a modern coat. But some choose the older styles and materials for their "historical" appeal.

A classic example of this is a Watch coat or Match coat. Versions of it have been used for centuries, but they started showing up in written documents during the 1600's and 1700's - especially with the military. Basically, it is a wool blanket draped over your shoulders like a shawl, and then wrapped/belted around your waist to hold it tighter to the body. A broach or pin of some sort helps keep it held together across your chest. So think of it as a long shawl that you pin in front and wrap a belt around.

Once you get used to putting it on and moving/working in it, it is a great simple "coat" - and an extra blanket when it's time to sleep. And it's very versatile. You can bring it all the way up over your head like a hood, or over your shoulders with an extra "cape", or dropped down around your waist and tucked into your belt - all depending upon the weather and your work/exertion. Tighter weave lighter blankets work better for this.

The big drawback is that to other people you will look like a homeless person or refugee!

Do you have any links for them?

The Great Coat, like the Watchcoat or Matchcoat, have thier places in history, and can be an option in these modern times. But coats made of modern materials and of modern design have them beat for weight, size/bulk, water repelancy, wind resistance, and style.

Just some choices to consider.

Mikey - out in the Hinterlands

Weight - I agree, single layer down equipment is MUCH lighter, but if you like layering, the layers tend to add up too.

Size/bulk - Overall size, I agree, but bulk can easily be exceeded by down, or layers.

Water Repellency - I agree.

Wind Resistance - Unless you are talking gale force, wool and Ventile are good enough... (Ventile even IN gale force winds.

Style... TOTALLY disagree... The great coat looks MUCH better!

 

[nickg]

The woollen greatcoat has a lot in common with the canadian voyageur's capote and this was always considered an eminently practical garment for the temperate woodland having all the advantages of wool layers that we espouse today. It can double as a blanket and you can curl up in it completely to sleep. At medieval reenactments I regularly sleep rolled into a full length circular woollen cloak in preference to a modern sleeping bag, which I often find clinging and sweaty in not-so-cold weather. The only real drawback is the weight if you are backpacking, but even there if it replaces a dossbag, thick outer layer and waterproof the trade-off isnt so bad.

Cheers
Nick

 

[jamesraykenney]

Perhaps an old fashioned great coat made from modern materials? Goretex or equivalent outer, a good wicking inner, possibly some fleece inbetween for warmth. I for one would love something like that.

How about Ventile outer, with wool lining?

Gortex is never the actual outer, it is always lamentated to something like Nylon, because it is the consistency sandwich wrap.

The trouble with synthetics on the outside(at least for bush-craft or camping, is that they MELT very easily... Cotton is MUCH better, though it will get holes if a big enough spark sits on it long enough... Wool on the other hand, tends to put out sparks, and is almost impossible to catch fire.
Some syntectics, can actually melt before it is hot enough to even burn you!
Many jackets have been ruined by standing too close to a fire.

 

[addyb]

So stay away from the fire?

 

[Voivode]

In a similar vein, cowboys often wear oilskin jackets of a similar design. They cover the entire body while riding (and walking, for that matter) protecting from rain and allowing the rider to push though bush and tree branches without snagging or being injured. Add a wide-brimmed cowboy hat, and you're well protected from the elements, at the cost of some weight.