It might be worth noting that a heavy draw weight isn’t really necessary for hunting. Even today the minimum legal draw weight is only 35 pounds in most states. That said, a sharp broad head would be imperative for larger game.
Archaeologists and Bowyers – Advice please
- Thread starter Broch
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True, speed of flight, so bow response is probably more important - you only need the kill energy for large game.
The site at Star Carr showed that they were hunting deer. Not always as effectively as they might have wished though because at least one of the deer skeletons found had multiple arrowhead/ pieces in it, and it hadn't been killed quickly; some of the bone had begun to heal around the shattered flints.
This if from early Mesolithic - so, no, there was not as much forest or the breadth of woods to choose from; the ice had not long receded. At this time there was no Ash or Oak and certainly not Yew - they will have come later by the late Mesolithic. The Landscape was much more wetland, reedbeds, Willow, and some Birch and Alder. We tend to loose track of the timescales but the Mesolithic period lasted about 5,500 years!
I agree though, Willow does not tend to make a good bow but it may have been 'good-enough' for its purpose whatever that was. The archaeological team made a replica and shot a fish - maybe that's all that was needed.
Unfortunately, one wood I do not have is willow so my experimental archaeology is doomed from the start. I'll have to find some
I grow willow, and some of it is left to form the uprights, the sails, for hurdles. Should be hazel I suppose but willow does. It's as thick as my wrist (6 1/4") by the time it's three years old, and there's a fair old spring on those rods. The wind whips them around and they grow strong.
If the folks at Star Carr were actively using their nearby willow it's possible that this is exactly the kind of 'stick' they started with. It does dry out though and it becomes very stiff, and will keep its shape, which is why it's also used for willow furniture.
Haven't tried it as a bow
I grow willow, and some of it is left to form the uprights, the sails, for hurdles. Should be hazel I suppose but willow does. It's as thick as my wrist (6 1/4") by the time it's three years old, and there's a fair old spring on those rods. The wind whips them around and they grow strong.
If the folks at Star Carr were actively using their nearby willow it's possible that this is exactly the kind of 'stick' they started with. It does dry out though and it becomes very stiff, and will keep its shape, which is why it's also used for willow furniture.
Haven't tried it as a bow
Arrgh, if only a) we weren't in lockdown and b) we were closer
I'll find some; I'm intrigued now!
In North Wales hazel was used for a lot of things that willow is used for elsewhere, including basket making, because there isn't a lot of willow around.
I live in wetland Broch, there are four different kinds of willow happily growing within 30m of where I'm sitting right now 
Hear? I reckon I know why Goat Willow is so called. It actually tastes kind of sweet if you nip off the ends of the strips with your teeth when making cordage I think the goats preferred it for that. Nowhere near as bitter as some.
M
Hear? I reckon I know why Goat Willow is so called. It actually tastes kind of sweet if you nip off the ends of the strips with your teeth when making cordage
I think the goats preferred it for that. Nowhere near as bitter as some.M
To be honest, I think it’s the other way around: kill energy is useful on smaller game (usually blunt points) The arrow either stuns the game or sometimes kills it outright, whereas larger game (hunted with sharp broad heads) is killed by hemorage from the penetration (unless you’re good enough to hit the heart.
Broch: Thank you so much for the drawings of #11.
My interests arise from the wood anatomy, the microscopic wood structure.
As I can see, the lay of the annual growth increments allows the length to function in the manner of a stacked leaf spring.
This is particularly evident in species which are "ring-porous."
As an example, all the various species in the genus Fraxinus, the ashes.
On the other hand, willows (Salix sp) are diffuse porous with far longer vessel elements and fibers.
This changes the mechanical and elastic properties.
I'd like to fool around with each for the contrasting wood anatomies.
My interests arise from the wood anatomy, the microscopic wood structure.
As I can see, the lay of the annual growth increments allows the length to function in the manner of a stacked leaf spring.
This is particularly evident in species which are "ring-porous."
As an example, all the various species in the genus Fraxinus, the ashes.
On the other hand, willows (Salix sp) are diffuse porous with far longer vessel elements and fibers.
This changes the mechanical and elastic properties.
I'd like to fool around with each for the contrasting wood anatomies.
Yep, my intention is to build three near-identical bows - one of Willow as at Star Carr, one of the best species I think they had (I'll have to check but that could be Rowan or Hazel - I don't think they had Holly) and one of Ash, and compare them.
If you're going for a high crown, rounded belly bow type (as in Star Carr), rowan would be my first choice from that list, but it is a bit more difficult to source. It can be very pretty too
Ash and hazel are pretty abundant, but better suited to flatbows, unless meticulously tillered. Even then, my ash bows have eventually succumbed to chrysals. If laburnam was around in your era of interest, then that would be a first choice wood - if you can get hold of a straight-ish piece!Bird cherry (Prunus padus) is one of the easiest wood to make bows if available. As a flatbow it can take almost anything. I once tested one with a friend who had a a fairly fast cam (5000 pics/s) we just could not break it, string always slipped off first and that was with a loooooong draw. When drawing nothing very interesting happened but when the string slipped the bow went through quite a series of contortions.
If you're going for a high crown, rounded belly bow type (as in Star Carr), rowan would be my first choice from that list, but it is a bit more difficult to source. It can be very pretty too
No, no laburnam, no ash, I'm going to check hazel and rowan. I have plenty of rowan but I don't intend to cut a tree just for this experiment - I think I have a fallen one in the wood
- thick hazel I have plenty already coppiced so I may make do with that.
OK, I've now studied the published data on tree species at Star Carr; they don't make it easy - the actual species identified are hidden in the text almost as though it doesn't matter
Anyway:
Birch
Alder
Alder Buckthorn
Aspen
Willow
Elder
I'm a little surprised at this limited list to be honest. None of these are first or second choice bow woods. I have access to Birch, Alder and Elder so, I'll find some Willow and probably have a go with Alder as well.
It will take me a while to collect and season the wood so don't hold your breath. I'll publish my intended dimensions so, if anyone wants to have ago with any of the woods listed we can compare notes Of course, you can use your own dimensions but I think we are aiming for a lightweight bow.
Anyway:
Birch
Alder
Alder Buckthorn
Aspen
Willow
Elder
I'm a little surprised at this limited list to be honest. None of these are first or second choice bow woods. I have access to Birch, Alder and Elder so, I'll find some Willow and probably have a go with Alder as well.
It will take me a while to collect and season the wood so don't hold your breath. I'll publish my intended dimensions so, if anyone wants to have ago with any of the woods listed we can compare notes
Of course, you can use your own dimensions but I think we are aiming for a lightweight bow.Very interesting post. I can see why you think part of the Star Carr bow is missing. The image of the Star Carr bow is a perplexing one. On the one hand it seems at first sight to be a part finished bow, but then if it is, it has been discarded at a strange stage in it's manufacture. One limb looks so much more worked than the other. I've always been taught that both limbs should be worked as evenly as possible.
Can you explain why you say you think a fifth of it is missing. To my mind, and my limited experience, If the cross section proportions are anything to go on, the centre of the bow seems to be around the location of cross-section 5. If you balance that by making both limbs around 1190mm, then you end up with a bow nearly 2.4m Long. But it doesn't look like a broken bow either, well, it certainly doesn't look like any of the breaks I've ever had happen, (though I've never made a willow bow). 1.4m would be a far more comfortable length of bow for Hunting as well
I will be following this post with a great deal of interest. Good luck with the research, and keep us all posted
PS also be interested to find out how the very different climate impact would affect the willows performance and suitability as a bow wood.
Can you explain why you say you think a fifth of it is missing. To my mind, and my limited experience, If the cross section proportions are anything to go on, the centre of the bow seems to be around the location of cross-section 5. If you balance that by making both limbs around 1190mm, then you end up with a bow nearly 2.4m Long. But it doesn't look like a broken bow either, well, it certainly doesn't look like any of the breaks I've ever had happen, (though I've never made a willow bow). 1.4m would be a far more comfortable length of bow for Hunting as well
I will be following this post with a great deal of interest. Good luck with the research, and keep us all posted
PS also be interested to find out how the very different climate impact would affect the willows performance and suitability as a bow wood.
Its a baffling list.
Star Carr was not a permenent site, yes? (Forgive me but I know very little on it)
So presumably the inhabitants for at least part of the year were elsewhere, probably dryer land, and so had access to different woods.
Or maybe they had taboos; dry land kit on dry land, and a completley new portfolio on the marsh.
(The worrying possibility that they knew nothing about material science is in the back of my mind)
Star Carr was not a permenent site, yes? (Forgive me but I know very little on it)
So presumably the inhabitants for at least part of the year were elsewhere, probably dryer land, and so had access to different woods.
Or maybe they had taboos; dry land kit on dry land, and a completley new portfolio on the marsh.
(The worrying possibility that they knew nothing about material science is in the back of my mind)
No, I think, by the published material, Star Carr was a permanent camp that was used for hundreds of years but I don't know what we expect for the period very soon after the ice retreated - possibly this is representative with maybe some other species further south. It is highly unlikely that they did not know how to use the materials to hand IMO.
Sounds like a rewarding experiment Broch ... and if nawt else a good reason to make a bunch o bows.
I am very out of practice these days but have I tillered quite a few bows form local timber. More out of necessity than choice to be honest.
The Bowyers Bibles are the best place to get a head start, or if you want to go it alone just crack on and have fun and remember,, if you are not breaking em you are not making em!!
In regards to the wood, it is an ever raging battle that should rightly continue on for ever. Or at least I hope it does as it attracts new minds and discoveries.
Worth noting there are more differences in tension/compression than between the same species than there are amongst them.
Look into the Mass Principal from Badger or Tim Baker on his flat bow designs. (too many ace contributors to mention in TTB)
In short no matter what the wood - you can make a serviceable hunting bow from pretty much any wood if you consider the tension and compression capabilities of the bit of timber int hand. So, yes you can make a 40lb+ bow that shoots well from balsa wood if its about 9ft tall and 4 ft thick but who would want one
In regards to Willow I have made a nice shooting and hunting weight bow from willow. It was goat willow and whilst it was a nice tree it was not uncommon. If you tried this with a goo part of the rest of the genus you wouldn't have much luck. Unless again you went Baker/Badger and made it the size of a straight plane prop. Hazel is an ace bow wood, Elder is lovely if you can find a straight bit thick enough. Fruit woods we rarely find big enough at home.
I have had ash that's been more dense than yew, cherry that's been faster than the best wood I have ever worked including Osage.
Then we have the Welsh Wych elm that's put them all to shame
Enjoy it and please keep us up to date.
... and if nawt else a good reason to make a bunch o bows.I am very out of practice these days but have I tillered quite a few bows form local timber. More out of necessity than choice to be honest.
The Bowyers Bibles are the best place to get a head start, or if you want to go it alone just crack on and have fun and remember,, if you are not breaking em you are not making em!!
In regards to the wood, it is an ever raging battle that should rightly continue on for ever. Or at least I hope it does as it attracts new minds and discoveries.
Worth noting there are more differences in tension/compression than between the same species than there are amongst them.
Look into the Mass Principal from Badger or Tim Baker on his flat bow designs. (too many ace contributors to mention in TTB)
In short no matter what the wood - you can make a serviceable hunting bow from pretty much any wood if you consider the tension and compression capabilities of the bit of timber int hand. So, yes you can make a 40lb+ bow that shoots well from balsa wood if its about 9ft tall and 4 ft thick but who would want one
In regards to Willow I have made a nice shooting and hunting weight bow from willow. It was goat willow and whilst it was a nice tree it was not uncommon. If you tried this with a goo part of the rest of the genus you wouldn't have much luck. Unless again you went Baker/Badger and made it the size of a straight plane prop. Hazel is an ace bow wood, Elder is lovely if you can find a straight bit thick enough. Fruit woods we rarely find big enough at home.
I have had ash that's been more dense than yew, cherry that's been faster than the best wood I have ever worked including Osage.
Then we have the Welsh Wych elm that's put them all to shame
Enjoy it and please keep us up to date.
