A knife by any other name...

  • Hey Guest, Early bird pricing on the Summer Moot (29th July - 10th August) available until April 6th, we'd love you to come. PLEASE CLICK HERE to early bird price and get more information.

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
I've been wondering for a while about the Ray Mears woodlore knife, If I may, I'd like to share my musings with you. The Mears woodlore knife is a pretty basic design. Ray has commisioned what appears to be a pretty standard 4" puukko blade, made from carbon steel, but instead of the traditional puukko "stick" tang, has asked that the knife be made with a full tang with handle slabs riveted on.

Woodlore-knife.jpg
woodmain.jpg


As mentioned, the knife itself is a pretty simple design. It looks to be essentially a simple puukko blade of the kind used for many centuries by the Lapps...

lapp.jpg


So what makes the Mears knife so different? Well, I'm not so sure that it is. I think it may be more a question of image, rather than being fuctionality different. To explain, a lot of knife collectors and makers favour the tradional bowie....

bowiesample.jpg


It conjours images of the heroic cowboy riding into battle against fierce indians, armed only with a winchester and his trusty bowie. A romantic image, much more so than those funny puukko's, carried by those chaps in Lappland who wear Santa costumes, with the pointy shoes and hats - no?

In reality, the overly large bowie is a ludicrously cumbersom, weighty, blade-heavy tool, possibly useful for chopping things and fighting people (tasks really better suited to axes and daggers). On the other hand, the puukko is a small, deft tool, usually less than 4" long, making it quick in the hand, accurate, excellnt for woodwork & game prepping alike. The puukko design has been refined and proven over many centuries by a people who depend on their knives to eek out their existance. It doesnt surprise me in the least, that the Ray Mears "westernised puukko" turns out to be a rather excellent tool. What does surprise me, is that it's taken so long to recognise the merits of the puukko design. In this review, the Mears knife scores a respectable 8/10, but in this review, the chesp £30 puukko scores a phenominal 10/10. That's very interesting indeed.

So, what makes the puukko so good. Well, you'd have to ask someone who uses them regularly to get a reliable and trustworthy answer, but undoubtedly, the small, relatively narrow 4" blade, combined with a substantial and ergonomic handle, makes the knife a quick and accurate tool to use. The blade geometry, also plays a part. Puukko's traditionally have only a single flat ground bevel and are usually made of laminated steel (softer on the outside for toughness, with a hard inner core) see...

abknife.gif


By a single falt ground bevel, I mean that the bevel goes all the way to the edge, like a chisel or carpenters knife, this differes from western knives which generally have a secondary bevel right at the edge. This single bevel gives the knife an excellent "wedge" making it good for carpentry (& bushcraft?), as well as more mundane stuff like skinning game. Many of our western knives are hollow ground, like razors, which makes them hair-poppingly sharp slicers, but absolutely no "wedge" and therefore terrible whittlers. For the majority of people who buy them, this makes little difference as most are never actually used in anger. The tactical style knives, which are becomming increasingly popular, have a totally different remit, and are equally useless as woodland tools, however efficient they may be at killing people.

I must admit though, I do like the idea of a full tang construction, over the traditional stick tang. Though the Lapps dont seem to have a problem with the stick tang construction, it does make for a very "solid" feel to the knife in your hand. It makes it easy to trust it.

I'd like some feedback from people with hands on experience of the mears knife, in any of it's incarnations, and also owners of puukko's - especially regarding the blade geometry. I'm pretty sure my research is on the money, but having never owned either I'd appreciate opinions from experienced owners/users.

I'm wondering if there is an opening here, to develop a westernised puukko design. The knife does suffer from a less-than-cool image IMO (albeit unjust), and could benefit from a redesign - not the blade, that would appear to be pretty much perfect, but the handle consruction. Modern materials, such as S30V steel, epoxy resins, micarta, G10 and carbon fibre could do a lot for the image of the humble puukko. I'm sure had these materials been around 100's of years ago, the Lapps would have used them. I'm increasingly more and more surprised that there isn't a bead-blasted, S30V, micarta and G10, slab handled puukko on the market.

I'm also surprised that manufacturers havent started to take up the slack with this. Alan Wood has a 12 month waiting list, even if he works full steam, I doubt he could stop the waiting list growing.

Hmmm.

On a slightly different note, I see Helle are making some nice designs, the "Helle Winner"...

he-045.jpg


and the "Helle Fjellkniven"...

he-004.jpg


Helle have a good reputation for their laminated steel blades. In fact you can buy a blade blank...

helle3.jpg


..with a 4" laminated blade, for about a tenner from Brisa Knives, tempting eh? Even if you have never made a knife yourself.

Opinions? Feedback? I'm thinking of either making a prototype blade myself, or commisioning one. Any comments from owners/users of these blades would be appreciated.

This thread has been duplicated on BritishBlades to get feedback from folks who make and collect knives.

Thanks for reading,
Martyn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: airborne09

bushblade

Nomad
Jul 5, 2003
367
2
47
West Yorkshire
www.bushblade.co.uk
Hi Martyn, the Bison blades were made after the Woodlore, Roger Harrington the guy who makes them was a student of Woodlore back in 1994, and I think Ray was using his long before that.

I've been trying to make a woodlore copy for about the past year now, but just don't seem to have the time I'd like to put into it, I have one blade ready for heat treat, and two more ready for the bevels ground in. Ben McNutt was kind enough to supply me with some box wood for the handles too. And a local leather worker has agreed to help me out on the sheath side of things.

Just need more time........ :x

Will
 

Matt

Tenderfoot
Jul 31, 2003
51
1
*
Ray's knife went into production in 1990.

I wouldn't be too keen to use modern materials Martyn, i suspect that the vast majority of people practicing bushcraft in the Uk would prefer a high carbon steel blade - its pretty essential for a decent shower of sparks, and the firesteel is a widely used bit of kit, plus its easier to sharpen. Aside from that I like to use a carbon steel blade because it promotes good knife care - if i don't take care of my knife I'm going to know about it! Personally I'd prefer to have a handle crafted from wood rather than a synthetic - thats just a personal thing, but i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people agreed.

I would tend to agree with you though, I think a lot of fuss is made over the Woodlore knife, and I imagine a lot of it is due to Ray's celebrity status, at the end of the day though, its not the knife you have but the work you do with it. I wonder if the Wilkinson sword knife that Ray previously designed would sell just as well now?

I'm actually using two knives at the moment - the frost clipper, and a frost triflex sloyd - i'm in mid production on a new knife (with a swedish blade and puuko influenced design: which hopefully will fit the bill this time) but I suspect I'll keep using the sloyd because its such a joy to use.

:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: airborne09

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Hey BushBlade, how things? ;)

Thanks for the correction about the chronology of the knives. I knew they were linked and knowing that Alan makes the current model, assumed that Bison Bushcraft made the for-runner. My mistake. ;)

Matt, on the point of carbon, I agree completely, I much prefer it too, though there are some excellent alloys available now, not just plain stainless, but some pretty sophisticated stuff - I could be tempted. I was thinking more along the lines of a blade to use in harsh (tropical or salty/wet) environments, with maybe a cordura sheath and micarta handle. Also, I'm pretty sure that the ferroceum rods can be sparked with pretty much any hard edge. Granted, you need carbon to get a spark if the knife is all you have, but the firesteels allow you to use almost anything - no?

I also agree about wood, I love ironwood but synthetics can be used to good effect.

What about a carbon blade, maybe 01 with a clay hardening line, with handles that are bolted on and user-removable. You could have various scale sets, depending on your anticipated conditions?

Just a thought.

I can see I'm gonna have to make me one. :)
 
G

gollums twin

Guest
Dear all,

As you will see from the reviews the woodlore knife got a fairly decent review and is the knife used by most outdoors people that I know - why? Because most of us at some time or other have passed through the woodlore outdoor courses. Added to this Mears' cele (minor though it is) it make the knife so attractive.

But I, like the reviewer, agree that it is too thick in the blade to be practical in utility work and the cost is way to high for something which is at best a simple tool.

The Puukko's reviewed by Gary got an excellent score and that was due (as I read it) to their price and quality at that price - I have one and they are every bit as good as the review says - especially if you stain the sheath.

Anyway the question of the Bison blade versus the Woodlore blade will be answered soon enough as I believe Gary will be reviewing a Bison blade once it arrives.

Also mentioned above are Helle knives these are good, cheap blades but only seem available in a laminated stainless which sucks in the fire lighting stakes.

At the end of the day you pays yours money and takes your choice - but - ego and image also play a big part in what you pays your hard earner pennies on.
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Gollum's twin is right in most respects there.

The woodlore knife is good but I also weigh the cost against its utility usage and quality ect.

The Puukko is also good (within its price range) and Harriet at Kellam knives will be the first to admit that it is 'the most average of their range of PUUKKO'S'

As for the Bison Bushcraft knife - again old Gollum is right, I am just waitng for him (roger harrington) to make me one and I will review it - having come from the woodlore school myself I agree with Gollums comments there but, as you all know I am not the greatest fan of the woodlore knife and so the smaller size of the Bison knife is appealling - let just hope the quality of materials and work is up to the task.

Will one little tip with the Puukko is once sharpened steel it a stroke or two either side just to give it a harder edge. You may have noticed me or Ben doing similar before butchering on the course thats the help the edge stay sharp around bone.
 
Aug 22, 2003
1
0
South Wales
Hi, I'm new to this bushcraft business. This is probably apparent from my choice of knife and I expect a fair amount of criticism about it (novices buying fancy knives that are too big etc.), but I am interested in peoples opinion about the Lofty Wiseman knife

http://www.edirectory.co.uk/penrith_survival/pages/moreinfoa.asp?RecordID=IEGI&companyid=55

From its description on the web-site and the description of a good knife in the SAS survival handbook it sounded like a useful tool. I figured that by buying it I needn't bother with an axe and any lighter work could be achieved with the assistance of a penknife. Thus far, the plan has worked (I have made my way through a six inch log fairly quickly) and I've been quite pleased with it, but I haven't gotten onto butchery or carving spoons yet! It has a single bevel and seems to hold an edge well but the point of the knife is quite blunt and will take some work to sharpen. I will confess that it does feel good hanging of my belt as well 8)

Do any experienced people have an opinion about it? Does it have any kind of reputation?
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
The Lofty Wiseman knife is a good tool for say the jungle but only of limited use in the UK and at the price you'd still be better off buying a good ex-military Golok.

In the army we were issued these with our vehicle kits but these were only intended to help clear vegetation etc.

A smaller knife (4") in most enviroments would be far superior and far more versatile.

For example could the Lofty Wiseman tool be used for fine carving if making triggers for traps or even the old favourite a spoon? Could you use if for butchering a rabbit with out butchering your fingers too? Or for peeling spuds for dinner? And could you use it for splitting fire wood to cook that dinner over as effectively as an axe?

I think not - like most aspects of military survival these types of tool are a compromise and in some cases a poor one at that.

Further more, it has taken the serious outdoors man a long time to live down the naive Rambo image and running around with a 14" bent sword upon your hip will do nothing but make you the butt of jokes.

As I often say on courses - 'Never judge a man by his knife, instead judge him by what he can make with it!' :D

:D
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
I'm surprised mr Wiseman has put his name to that series of knives to be honest. He's gained a good reputation for his pocket survival guide, which I gather is obligatory reading. But his choice of knives to which he's added his name, seems curious to say the least. The 1/4 inch thick 440a steel also seems a curious choice. The steel is no where near as good as it could be, barely acceptable as a knife steel. There are much better steels available (440c is much better) and the 1/4 thick blade would make it a little too thick to be any good at slicing or carving, while perhaps too thin to be a decent chopper. Lofty says he tested it in the jungles of nepal, I'm wondering if he had chnce to try out a decent kukri or bolo while he was there?

Read more:

http://www.loftywiseman.co.uk/index.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: airborne09
D

darctus

Guest
I agree entirely with Martyns comments>The survival knife is hopelessly overpriced _if you want thies type of design far better value can be obtained from a number of american manufaturers.Even then it is only of value for clearing vegetation.I examined a number of these knives at Penrith survival and despite the manufaturers claim that they are razor sharp,everyone was extremely blunt.They are also very heavy.

Asfor the woodlore knife - I owned one and found it easy to sharpen to a good edge an dvery useful as a utility knife bet poor for skinning purposes.Alan told me he could make a better knife for the same price
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Any reasonably sized knife would out preform a machette in most respects especially were finesse is required. But its courses for horses and enviroment, use, the user etc etc should all be taken into account.

Alan woods could easily make a far superior knife to the Woodlore knife just by thinning the blades thickness and depth. That alone would improve its handling qualities while not effect any aspect of its strength. Cost on the other hand is still an issue but you pays your money and makes your choice.

A choice of knife is a personal thing.
 

cybertrix

Member
Aug 24, 2003
26
0
60
Nottinghamshire
I guess the best thing to do is what Ray Mears and Martyn have done. Decide what you want in a knife and talk to a person that makes knives and have one made to your own specs. That could be an expensive option or not depending on who you get to make it. You also have to consider the long term investment of such a knife, a knife that is going to last a lifetime (Baring abuse). What an Alan Wood knife costs today is not what one will fetch in ten years. There are also allot of up and coming knifemakers that will make your knife for less than some of the more established knifemakers. That does not mean the knife will be inferior in any way, just less expensive. If that is beyond your budget then a good production knife is still a good piece of kit but the knife will not have your input and therefore more compromises.
 

Gary

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Apr 17, 2003
2,603
2
57
from Essex
Speaking of having knives made and spending small fortunes upon them heres a thought for you all to play with.

A native living the kind of life we all study and play at doesn't have a £200 knife and he doesnt have access to knife makers either and yet he does survive - more over he does this daily.

Sometimes we all become a little to pre-occupied with kit and lose the true path we started out upon, the path to enjoying the outdoors. At the end of the day ask yourself what are you going to use the knife for - and if the answer is Sod all - Save your money and get a better sleeping bag or tent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: airborne09

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
33
58
staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
:biggthump Well said Gary, I agree completely. But there is one thing that you missed about the native analogy, I dont think anyone hereabouts does this bushcraft stuff because they are forced to, in order to survive. They (...if I'm making some big jumps here, feel free to correct me) do it for fun, pleasure and enjoyment. Probably a load of other reasons as well, but I'm sure those I mention factor greatly. Choosing a knife, or having one made, is an extension of that enjoyment. We are lucky that we have the ability to choose our way, we have the money and time to "play" at whatever we choose. Kit, gear, knives - it's all part of that process, and why not?

If the native who survives so well with his sharpened piece of pig-iron, had our money and the choices it brings, he's probably be in the costa-del-sol. :D

But your point is well made, few things are truly "essential".
 

bagman

Tenderfoot
Aug 6, 2003
62
0
Oxon
Gary said:
At the end of the day ask yourself what are you going to use the knife for - and if the answer is Sod all - Save your money and get a better sleeping bag or tent.

AAH a heretic, quick fetch the stake and the kindling and the firestick :p

Sorry wrong forum :-D
 

The General

Need to contact Admin...
Sep 18, 2003
300
1
North Wales Llandudno
I have found a great combo is the Gerber Sports Axe, Leatherman super tool and a 4-5 inch blade of quality, such as the M2 Nimravious or my Farid fixed blade.

I also use a 10" Spearpoint blade of my own design with great sucsess in the field, CPM 10V and over 1/4 stock, makes a great axe substitute.
 

Colin KC

Need to contact Admin...
Sep 21, 2003
108
0
The Bottom of England
Hi guys, not much to add at this point (I only came over to spy on Martyn, sloping off to buy another axe :roll: :wink: )

Mostly it's been said, we (that is, you) do this for a hobby & can, within reason, have your pick of kit (paypackets allowing) so why not go for the best?

Because "the best" isn't available as a standard offering! How many times has it been said "It's just right, but, the handle could do with being a bit more rounded" or "nice knife, shame it's a pig to sharpen in the field"


How many times have users (& collectors) spent good money on a knife, only to sell it six months down the line, or put it in a draw, never to be seen again?


No answers for this, sorry. Just a bit of FFT :wink:
 

Tony

White bear (Admin)
Admin
Apr 16, 2003
24,182
1
1,934
53
Wales
www.bushcraftuk.com
The General said:
I have found a great combo is the Gerber Sports Axe, Leatherman super tool and a 4-5 inch blade of quality, such as the M2 Nimravious or my Farid fixed blade.

I also use a 10" Spearpoint blade of my own design with great success in the field, CPM 10V and over 1/4 stock, makes a great axe substitute.

A comment about your Gerber axe, I may be wrong as the thought is off the top of my head. We use the back of our axes a lot for hammering all sorts of things. Would your Gerber stand up to this? Is the head held in place because of the taper of the head in the handle, so when you hit it on the back using it like a hammer does it pop the head out of the shaft?

Hope that made sence :mrgreen:
 

BCUK Shop

We have a a number of knives, T-Shirts and other items for sale.

SHOP HERE