My survival kit, what else do i need?

[presterjohn]

I am not going to get into the big debate that this thread is changing to but I will add my voice to those that have no time for survival blankets. They are not worth the space they take up. If you want something cheap go for one of those silver tube tents from the pound shop. If you can afford it go for a SOL type bag or a bothy bag.

 

[cbr6fs]

Is it just me, or are there some fantastic responses coming out.

Good point on the stove weight, only thing i'd add is, if we are talking about scenarios were we are stranded then it would make sense to have our water with us, as we may not have the visibility or mobility (from say a leg injury) to make it to a water source.

If someone has already posted information that corroborates this post, I apologise. I got half way through and lost the will to live. BUT......
what use is making a hot drink vs sticking on an extra jumper.
Can we all agree that, in principle, putting an extra insulation layer onto an inactive hot water tank will not increase the ambient core temperature of the tank, unless the external temperature is higher than the internal temperature. In which case the insulating layer inhibits, not stops, the re-equalising of the temperatures.
So, in order to increase the internal temperature, we have to increase the external temperature and allow for equilibrium to slowly occur OR we have to input an energy source which would activate the regulatory sensors, therefore activating the heating element. IN THIS CASE, option 1 is not possible, so far.
Option 2 would be to provide an energy source with allows the following events to occur.
Science.
Now the human bit.
Humans can by defeated or exhilerated by the smallest factor. An action or even a thought. Watch 100 mtr runners. They focus.
In the face of insurmountable odds, they have to learn to believe in themselves.
They mere act of thinking about making a cup of tea provides a short lived motivation.
The activity involved in preparing the tea increases the blood flow, affects the emotional response. This is the survival factor, this is the win or quit and die moment. The drinking of the tea WITH SUGAR or the drinking of hot chocolate provides 2 things. The heat of the fluid in the body core helps to raise internal temperature, provides the flame. The sugars provide instant energy, the fuel. This is not enough. But its the start. Now you have the capability to use the energy to create body heat. The insulation layer only restricts heats passage to the external environment, not stop it. You need a more sustainable food source to continue, but the instant fuel is used by the brain to help with thinking processes, even if the manual processes are severely restricted.
If fine motors skills are inactive, we tend to use gross motor skills to achieve our aim. Stuff hot food into our mouths, burning our mouths, blistering our hands? We don't care because we can't feel it. If we can feel it, things aren't as bad as we thought.
We need the fuel source to metabolise and create body heat. The insulation only retains what we have produced.
Ask any fire if it needs a blanket more than fuel, heat or oxygen.
That's science

Good points, as AP said it's more a case of prevention rather than a solution after hypothermia has set it.

One thing to note though, i've had times where i have been really really cold, worrying so and to the point of slurred speech.
On those occasions i found that by doing star jumps or some running it helped my body warm up, if i had more insulation to put on, this would make them more effective.

As we are talking emergencies here then an injury might mean star jumps and running are out the question, BUT even something like sit up's will activate large muscle groups which will warm you up.
Press up's, sit up's, crunches even wiggling your toes will get your body generating some heat.

It might mean a sleepless night or 20 min nods until the cold wakes you up, but still you can catch up on your sleep when your back home.

 

[sunndog]

There have been some great posts on this thread.....but I have to say, others are boring the life out of me

 

[Corso]

What I was saying was that a hot drink contains heat energy which has to go somewhere or we break thermodynamics (and that would break the universe so let's not do that!)
Assuming minimal heat loss (not practical as there will be a shedload of convective and conductive heat loss) a hot drink will contain 189 kJ of heat energy. As it is a drink (some of) it will be absorbed readily in the large intestine (the sugar should diffuse through the small intestine pretty easily and take minimal digestion). The 189 kJ of thermal energy should raise 5 litres of blood (assuming the same specific heat capacity as water) by 9 Celsius. Obviously it won't as homeostasis will prevent the core temp from raising greatly largely by vasodilation but warm blood at the skin's surface will increase radiative heat loss which should be trapped in the layers of clothing which you are (hopefully) wearing so it should still warm you.
I've not seen any studies pertaining to this but anecdotal accounts have built up to the point that it has entered first aid doctrine and it seems plausible.
Any calories (sorry to switch units) gained from the sugar content will only help increase this warming effect as the body will be able to use them to respire to gain more heat energy.

as I said - for a brief time

 

[BlueTrain]

I no longer know any answers or dare to suggest that I do but one thing I do know: you can die at your favorite, familiar campsite, although I will add that I haven't personally proved it. Moreover, one's own story is probably unique and nothing like things that seem to happen to other people.

I don't mind cold weather and some of the most delightful trips I've made were when snow was on the ground. But on one overnight trip, there was a change in the weather. I had camped on top of a mostly bare ridge, don't remember what month. The first day was clear and warm, though probably no higher than mid-70s. Nothing special about the night but it turned cool. The plan was to break camp after breakfast and move on, which I did. But by then it had turned very chilly, so cold in fact that my fingers stopped working. So apparently it doesn't take long for hypothermia to have an effect. But I still managed to get everything together and to be on my way. Fifteen minutes of walking with a pack, no matter how cold it gets (at least here) is enough to get up steam and to shake off any chilly feeling. An hour or two later it started raining, which was freezing by the time I got back to the trailhead. Before I left, a ranger came round and said the park was being closed because of the weather.

I couldn't possibly have prepared a hot drink when my hands were cold, or at least I don't think I could have (I'd just had breakfast anyway), even though I was otherwise dressed warmly enough, more or less. The point is, one can become incredibly cold very quickly under certain conditions, mainly cold wet or windy weather. It probably wouldn't happen if you were on the move but if you were stopped and trying to do something or otherwise immobile, you'd be in serious danger.

 

[presterjohn]

I no longer know any answers or dare to suggest that I do but one thing I do know: you can die at your favorite, familiar campsite, although I will add that I haven't personally proved it. Moreover, one's own story is probably unique and nothing like things that seem to happen to other people.

I don't mind cold weather and some of the most delightful trips I've made were when snow was on the ground. But on one overnight trip, there was a change in the weather. I had camped on top of a mostly bare ridge, don't remember what month. The first day was clear and warm, though probably no higher than mid-70s. Nothing special about the night but it turned cool. The plan was to break camp after breakfast and move on, which I did. But by then it had turned very chilly, so cold in fact that my fingers stopped working. So apparently it doesn't take long for hypothermia to have an effect. But I still managed to get everything together and to be on my way. Fifteen minutes of walking with a pack, no matter how cold it gets (at least here) is enough to get up steam and to shake off any chilly feeling. An hour or two later it started raining, which was freezing by the time I got back to the trailhead. Before I left, a ranger came round and said the park was being closed because of the weather.

I couldn't possibly have prepared a hot drink when my hands were cold, or at least I don't think I could have (I'd just had breakfast anyway), even though I was otherwise dressed warmly enough, more or less. The point is, one can become incredibly cold very quickly under certain conditions, mainly cold wet or windy weather. It probably wouldn't happen if you were on the move but if you were stopped and trying to do something or otherwise immobile, you'd be in serious danger.

One of the chaps from this site posted a very good survival video from some American park ranger type dude who basically said forget starting fires and building shelters. He had 20 years experience working in wooded mountain regions and said (if I remember correctly) focus on taking shelter out with you via one of the old fashioned orange plastic bags or similar and a decent means of attracting attention to yourself via whistles and mirrors etc.

It has a lot of logic to it if you think about it. If you are caught out it could be at the end of the say or away from combustible materials etc and you may well be injured. In that kind of situation you are not going to have the means or ability to make fires and bushcraft type shelters.

 

[Firelite]

At the risk of becoming embroiled, I would make three points:
1) dehydration is a factor that elevates the chance of becoming hypothermic, so you have to stay hydrated to keep warm.
2) If you drink something like, say, cold water you will be losing body heat in warming it up once its inside you (thermodynamics as mentioned above). From these, it seems to me that warming the fluid you take on-board is obviously a good idea, if you are able to do it, because it will reduce the chance of becoming hypothermic.
3) Finally, with respect to morale, it is my belief that maintaining a positive attitude can make a difference, possibly a critical difference, when things go wrong. I can't point to scientific studies that show this, but almost all the stories you hear about someone pulling through after being beset by difficulties indicates that an ability to keep up morale stops you sitting down and giving in, particularly with respect to situations when there is cold involved. On the other hand, I do have experience of people who give up in the face of (sometimes even the smallest) adversity and refuse to engage further. Having the constant mindset of striving to improve your situation can be a deciding factor, in my view.

 

[Angry Pirate]

as I said - for a brief time

How do you define brief though? Ten minutes, 30, an hour?
The answer is probably really complicated but will depend to a large extent on the insulation in your clothing and the convective heat loss to the surroundings. In a good shelter like a bothy wearing some warm layers then that could be a long time.

3) Finally, with respect to morale, it is my belief that maintaining a positive attitude can make a difference, possibly a critical difference, when things go wrong. I can't point to scientific studies that show this, but almost all the stories you hear about someone pulling through after being beset by difficulties indicates that an ability to keep up morale stops you sitting down and giving in, particularly with respect to situations when there is cold involved. On the other hand, I do have experience of people who give up in the face of (sometimes even the smallest) adversity and refuse to engage further. Having the constant mindset of striving to improve your situation can be a deciding factor, in my view.

I think there is quite a bit of research in this area in the fields of sports science and medicine. There is lots of psychology involved in top athletic performance and visualising success is key to strong achievement.
Likewise in medicine, the placebo effect is poorly understood but widely researched and for some folk the belief that x will do them good yields measurable improved survival outcomes.

 

[BlueTrain]

I agree that a positive attitude is important. Frankly, it's a little difficult to imagine how people who go out to the woods or wherever else they go (the desert, the hills, the swamp) with the intent of having fun and something of a mild adventure over the weekend could regard a little adversity as anything but an opportunity. An opportunity to rise above the situation and to solve the problem and to prove one's self, not to mention a chance to use all those little things you brought along "just in case." It's all in your point of view. Of course, we all start out as beginners. It takes a while before the wild becomes tame to us and a more desirable place to be than in town at the pub on High Street, if ever.

Concerning a hot drink, to return to the subject of the previous half-dozen posts, if not the thread, there is something to be said for a warm mug of coffee, tea or chocolate. While it might be a lot of trouble to prepare a hot drink, there's nothing better for warming your hands than holding the mug. So an insulated mug is not necessarily the best thing to use. Your father's chipped enamel army issue mug is better than an insulated plastic mug you picked up at the gas station. You could always bring along a thermos of coffee or tea, too. I even like to carry along a large coffee that I pick up at the closest McDonald's before setting off on a cold day. It's a real luxury and it gives you something to do with your hands.

 

[Corso]

How do you define brief though? Ten minutes, 30, an hour?
The answer is probably really complicated but will depend to a large extent on the insulation in your clothing and the convective heat loss to the surroundings. In a good shelter like a bothy wearing some warm layers then that could be a long time.

how about test it and report back? of course if you did you'd have to consider that eveyones metobolism and physique is different and any result would be specific to the environmentt and condition of the individual at the point in which the experiment was carried out

I kept it vague for a very real reason....

 

[bambodoggy]

I even like to carry along a large coffee that I pick up at the closest McDonald's before setting off on a cold day. It's a real luxury and it gives you something to do with your hands.

I'm a bit of a coffee'holic and I do this most times when I head into the woods, you're quite right in that it sets you up nicely for the day and although I have to pack out the little plastic lid (oh the chore!) the cup itself (if the waxed cardboard type is bought) makes a great aid to fire lighting

I don't really have anything to add to the below discussion, I kinda thought you were all right in what you were saying individually but all talking at cross purposes and about different scenarios. Still makes a nice change from me upsetting somebody lol

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[Angry Pirate]

how about test it and report back? of course if you did you'd have to consider that eveyones metobolism and physique is different and any result would be specific to the environmentt and condition of the individual at the point in which the experiment was carried out

I kept it vague for a very real reason....

To be fair, I don't have to. There is a plethora of research out there already.
As an example, Lee and Shirreffs found that drinking a hot drink (50 degrees) increased skin temperature by 0.5 degrees
Whilst that sounds paltry, that is quite significant considering the homeostatic effect to maintain core temperature.
There are other similar studies so you could run a meta-study based on all the data to factor in the effects on metabolism and physique, though metabolism shouldn't really affect the dissipation of heat energy from a hot drink to a colder surroundings as the body isn't actively doing anything to absorb it, it's just thermodynamics.

The effects of body type/mass/fat and insulation have also been studied fairly thoroughly (the military have had tons done!) Most have been done in water as it a more efficient conductor of heat and is more reproducible than wind. One study showed that insulated clothing reduced heat loss, as measured by a higher skin temperature of nearly 5 degrees.

I think the overall point is that all factors play a part: shelter and insulation are the most important, high calorie food to allow cells to respire are a close second and a hot drink will play a role too. How long will it keep you warm for? As you say, that will depend on the individual but if you chuck a significant amount of heat energy into a body, it has to go somewhere and if they are well insulated it'll probably hang around for a fairly long time.

 

[Corso]

To be fair, I don't have to. There is a plethora of research out there already.
As an example, Lee and Shirreffs found that drinking a hot drink (50 degrees) increased skin temperature by 0.5 degrees

and I say YET again - for how long.... not long enough to bother relying on it IMO

BTW your link is dead

 

[Laurentius]

Here is some useful information about Hypothermia, it would seem the response is dependent on the degree of hypothermia, but for mild hypothermia a hot sweet drink is recommended. http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia

 

[Angry Pirate]

and I say YET again - for how long.... not long enough to bother relying on it IMO

BTW your link is dead

Look, sorry to keep harping on about this but this is where we fundamentally disagree. A hot drink will contain quite a significant amout of thermal energy which has to go somewhere. You're right that the body dumps that energy pretty effectively to the periphery and manages to prevent it raising the temperature by much but that energy will then raise the temperature of the surroundings. Insulation is key here as that will reduce energy transfer outside the microclimate and create a layer of warm air around the body. This is still pretty much the same amount of energy we started with so providing the insulation / shelter is good then that energy is going to keep you warm fora while. Having sat in a bothy for a few hours with someone it's amazing how warm it gets.
For what it's worth, I agree that a brew is much less effective than good shelter and insulation in the first place!
Sorry about the broken link. It was working on my pc, honest! When I'm back on a machine I'll pop it up again.

 

[sunndog]

A lot of times When these debates go on too long its usually because a fairly broad subject or statement has been looked at so closely
That only a part of it is being discussed

My original suggestion was that a cup of tea could make a cold and boring afternoons stalking somewhat more pleasant
Now its seems its "can a cup of tea save the life of a naked man sitting on an ice block on top of ben nevis"

Well alright that might be an ever so slight exaggeration

But I think the point is that those who are pro hot drink (me included) are talking about it IN ADDITION to having a shelter and appropriate clothing

if I stuck anyone in a bothy bag up a mountain for a few hours in winter I doubt they would refuse a brew if offered

 

[cbr6fs]

A lot of times When these debates go on too long its usually because a fairly broad subject or statement has been looked at so closely
That only a part of it is being discussed

My original suggestion was that a cup of tea could make a cold and boring afternoons stalking somewhat more pleasant
Now its seems its "can a cup of tea save the life of a naked man sitting on an ice block on top of ben nevis"

Well alright that might be an ever so slight exaggeration

But I think the point is that those who are pro hot drink (me included) are talking about it IN ADDITION to having a shelter and appropriate clothing

if I stuck anyone in a bothy bag up a mountain for a few hours in winter I doubt they would refuse a brew if offered

It's all a bit of a blur now but i think i'm to blame there.

My point all along was that gram for gram a decent insulation layer would be a better option if hypothermia is a worry on a unexpected night on a mountainside.

If it's cold wet day out in the hills then i'm usually wearing a baselayer, a mid layer fleece and i'll have a waterproof jacket and trousers with me.
For stops possible emergencies i will throw in a down pullover in as well as my usual FAK, emergency bivvy bag etc.

I'm confident that if i wear my baselayer, fleece, down jacket and waterproof jacket i won't be cold even at -5c.
-10c i might need to do some star jumps, sit ups etc to get the blood flowing and warm up me up.


I'm not confident that a cup of tea would see me through a night of -5c temps IF i replaced my down jacket with a stove, fuel, lighter, tea bags/coffee and water.

The is also the question that IF an emergency occurred that necessitated a unexpected night on the mountainside, if i replaced my down jacket with a stove etc would i have the dexterity to light it, would i want to leave the shelter of my bivvy bag to boil the water and more importantly COULD i boil the water outside the shelter of my bivvy bag.

Might sound far fetched but i've had it before where the weather was THAT bad i couldn't get my trangia to light even after taking shelter in a natural cove.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that given the choice between spending a unexpected night out with a cuppa, or a unexpected night out without a cuppa, a cuppa of anything warm would be grand, no if's but's or maybe's.

In my eyes the disagreement is over the fact that it's a risky plan to RELY on a cuppa to get through a cold wet night.
Far better to have enough insulation with you.
The side disagreement is even IF you chose to rely on a cuppa to get you through the night, can you find the water, fuel to make one, and even IF you have the fuel/water do you have the dexterity?

 

[bambodoggy]

What if you carried a small thermos flask (even cold numb paws can make these things work) of coffee (I hate tea) and wrapped it up in a down jacket (extra insulation lol), with a Soreen malt loaf in one pocket and a little fold up sit mat in the other?

Would that placate everybody? Sounds like a fun night on stag lol

 

[British Red]

You forgot the hip flask Bam

 

[Quixoticgeek]

Been thinking about this one for a while now before wading in with my contribution. I think from the kit you have there I would:

• Swap the space blanket for a heatsheats bivvi bag - made by adventure medical kits, going to be more durable and easier to use than a space blanket
• Water - You obviously aren't going to carry a couple of litres of water in a kit like this, but you do want to have a means of treating and capturing water, some puritabs and a container would be the minimum. You could carry a condom as the water container (the traditional approach), but I recently came across these on the US amazon, but can't seem to find them in the UK. If you have shelter, and water, and someone knows roughly where you are, you can hunker down until rescue arrives. Sure it may not be an enjoyable time, but you'll survive. Or you could carry a sawyer mini...
• Food - Sometimes all you need is a short energy burst to get you home, maybe some dextrose tablets or a mars bar?

There is something to be said for a hot drink to keep you warm and boost morale, but you could easily start to push the limits of what is a personal survival kit. Perhaps the ideal would be a kit that you could store in a mug, with a survival bag (I do like the look of the AMK SOL bags), some puritabs, water bag, stove, some hot chocolate sachets, and a couple of hexi tabs. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve with your kit, and how long you expect to have to await rescue. In the UK, chances are that will be a couple of hours tops. Unless you're very unfortunate and a major storm has rolled in, in which case a day, maybe 36 hours at most? The mug option makes it that little bit harder to fit into a thigh pocket on a pair of trousers...

J