Was just trying to make the point that there is no magical list, what you should carry will depend of where your going, when and your skill level and experience.
Do you carry food with you on day hikes?
My survival kit, what else do i need?
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Was just trying to make the point that there is no magical list, what you should carry will depend of where your going, when and your skill level and experience.
Do you carry food with you on day hikes?
Bit over dramatic
Do you disagree that we should select our Emergency gear depending on our environment, knowledge, experience and weather?
Or is it me wanting hard data on hot drinks/food preventing hypothermia that made you throw your dummy out?
Sorry if that comes off a bit unfriendly but i'm of the view that it's snide comments like that that devalue threads.
Everyone in this thread has put forward some great points.
Tsitenha put forward some great advice and points but i'm not sure if he/she is familiar with the sort of terrain hundreds of thousands of outdoors enthusiasts experience within the UK, hence the pics.
Do you not agree that relying on starting a fire in terrain like i have shown, would be a dangerous assumption to make?
Homesicksteve put forward a fanatic point about moral, this is something that's difficult to measure as it's different for all of us, but often something we take as granted like a cup of tea will make a miserable unexpected night out a noggin less miserable.
Again though if folks are going to rely on that shouldn't a few basic things like:
Where are they getting their water from?
Where are they getting their fuel from?
Be asked, because if we are immobile or have to sit out extreme weather then this moral booster might not be a reliable method of getting through the night.
Please tell me if i am being unreasonable in wanting to have hard facts scientific data and facts behind me when i pick the items that might save my life if i'm caught out and can't make it off a mountain.
Ok I guess I'll take the stand, as it was me that first mentioned making a brew
This is what I wrote
"personally i'd also take a very lightweight means of making a brew, few hexy blocks and a lidded cup
If you have to spend some extra time out on the hill or have got yerself too cold.....nothing beats a brew in a bivvy lol"
It wasent strictly meant as a "survival" tip more one of comfort. This is based on my own years of hunting
You do get cold on the hill and you do get wet long before it becomes life threatening and especially if you're quarry is not playing ball, a hot drink and warming you're hands up is most welcome
I almost always take extra water with me. So a cup and a couple of hexy blocks ain't much to worry about
As for hot drinks and hypothermia
Opinions differ on this. Traditionally it is taught that a hot drink gets warmth to your core quicker
However there are studies that show the warmth you feel is actually a kind of placebo effect caused by your body getting rid of the excess heat to the extremities in order to regulate core temperature
Me, I think it can't hurt.
If you are able to prepare the drink yourself then you are likely not far gone into hypothermia so it wont matter much.
If you have to be given the drink and are still able to actually drink it. Then it stands to reason you're body will still use the heat to regulate core temp
Be that to raise or lower.....just my opinion there of course
This is what I wrote
"personally i'd also take a very lightweight means of making a brew, few hexy blocks and a lidded cup
If you have to spend some extra time out on the hill or have got yerself too cold.....nothing beats a brew in a bivvy lol"
It wasent strictly meant as a "survival" tip more one of comfort. This is based on my own years of hunting
You do get cold on the hill and you do get wet long before it becomes life threatening and especially if you're quarry is not playing ball, a hot drink and warming you're hands up is most welcome
I almost always take extra water with me. So a cup and a couple of hexy blocks ain't much to worry about
As for hot drinks and hypothermia
Opinions differ on this. Traditionally it is taught that a hot drink gets warmth to your core quicker
However there are studies that show the warmth you feel is actually a kind of placebo effect caused by your body getting rid of the excess heat to the extremities in order to regulate core temperature
Me, I think it can't hurt.
If you are able to prepare the drink yourself then you are likely not far gone into hypothermia so it wont matter much.
If you have to be given the drink and are still able to actually drink it. Then it stands to reason you're body will still use the heat to regulate core temp
Be that to raise or lower.....just my opinion there of course
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I allways carry A large watermelon in my survival kit
For the following reasons;
-A food source
-Hollowed out it can be used as a water container
-Adapted for use as a crash helmet
-Tsa complient for international flights
-If a bear attacks, you can throw it at the bear
-Sit on it and use it as a chair
-Catapult amunition when hunting wild pigs
-Hollowed out it can be used to store live bait when fishing
-You can put a bloody handprint on it and call it wilson
-paint the countries of the world on it and use it as a globe to navigate your way in a survival situation
-A buoyancy aid incase you fall in a river
As you can see there are as many uses as your imagination can conjure up and the list is too lengthy to write down in full
Everyone should carry one as it could save your life one day
For the following reasons;
-A food source
-Hollowed out it can be used as a water container
-Adapted for use as a crash helmet
-Tsa complient for international flights
-If a bear attacks, you can throw it at the bear
-Sit on it and use it as a chair
-Catapult amunition when hunting wild pigs
-Hollowed out it can be used to store live bait when fishing
-You can put a bloody handprint on it and call it wilson
-paint the countries of the world on it and use it as a globe to navigate your way in a survival situation
-A buoyancy aid incase you fall in a river
As you can see there are as many uses as your imagination can conjure up and the list is too lengthy to write down in full
Everyone should carry one as it could save your life one day
Did I disagree with you or comment on the topic being ruined? Why? A lot of your posts come across as trying to put down others or want others to explain the nuts and bolts of a passing comment or thought. This isn't the first, second or third time I've seen it or been involved directly by yourself. I call you a troll as that's how it comes across. I don't want another long drifting debate on someone else's topic either... again
Sent from my hidey hole using Tapatalk... sssh!
Sent from my hidey hole using Tapatalk... sssh!
Um, someone who has done mountain leader training might disagree with you about the general value of moral.
How much water? Good question. Depends on the temperature, humidity, etc. A litre per person for a day hike is reasonable.
I didn't suggest lighting fires to melt snow. As explained by others, in many areas of the UK uplands there simply isn't any fuel. I originally responded to someone saying they always took some hexi (very lightweight btw) cubes, saying I agreed that was a good idea.
If walking in winter, fuel to melt snow is lighter than the equivalent amount of water.
My tuppeneth for what it's worth:
If I'm up on the hill I carefully balance the weight of what I'm carrying versus the safety kit in my pack. Walter Bonetti was famous for his mega lightweight approach to climbing, his attitude was that the more safety kit you carry the slower you will and the greater the chance of benightment. Admittedly this is for alpine climbing where speed = safety but as a philosophy it is a good start.
As has been said, there is precious little to burn on top of mountains in the uk but there can be an abundance of wind and rain. As I'm sure folk know, hypothermia can kill in a few hours; dehydration, a few days and starvation, a few weeks. That is how I balance my safety gear: I carry a bothy shelter (great to share body heat and more social), a survival blanket (meh, it weighs virtually nothing), a primaloft warm layer (fill weight dependent on summer/winter) and some emergency high calorie food (ginger cake is.a morale booster or just lots of chocolate. I'll carry enough water for the day (2 litres usually) and a well-stocked (think Mountain Leader) first aid kit with spare head torch and mini strobe. I carry a small folding knife (mainly to cut up the cake), a compass and a gps (for real emergencies).
My winter climbing pack was the lightest I could buy (650 grams) so I can be up a route and off the hill before dark and is big enough that i can get my legs in it for extra insulation if I do get stuck out. My mate's pack is 300g heavier, that's the weight of my down gilet and a kingsize mars bar. I know which I'd rather be carrying!
In the past I have carried a titanium mug and a wee gas stove but only if I was expecting an extended wait on top of a hill for a group. I don't bother now as it's too much faff for the minimal morale boost/warmth rise; I'd rather extra warm layers and a double decker.
I have sat on lakeland mountains in some really nasty conditions for hours waiting for Dof E groups with the above and been perfectly comfortable, I would be confident thatI could extend that stay overnight and survive until morning. Wouldn't be very comfortable but I don't expect to have to do it. After all if I've planned my trip correctly benightment won't happen barring injury.
If I was trogging through lower wooded areas then the saw, axe, knife etc might get a look in but I generally only carry them if I intend to use them othewise the kit above is still my best bet.
If I'm up on the hill I carefully balance the weight of what I'm carrying versus the safety kit in my pack. Walter Bonetti was famous for his mega lightweight approach to climbing, his attitude was that the more safety kit you carry the slower you will and the greater the chance of benightment. Admittedly this is for alpine climbing where speed = safety but as a philosophy it is a good start.
As has been said, there is precious little to burn on top of mountains in the uk but there can be an abundance of wind and rain. As I'm sure folk know, hypothermia can kill in a few hours; dehydration, a few days and starvation, a few weeks. That is how I balance my safety gear: I carry a bothy shelter (great to share body heat and more social), a survival blanket (meh, it weighs virtually nothing), a primaloft warm layer (fill weight dependent on summer/winter) and some emergency high calorie food (ginger cake is.a morale booster or just lots of chocolate. I'll carry enough water for the day (2 litres usually) and a well-stocked (think Mountain Leader) first aid kit with spare head torch and mini strobe. I carry a small folding knife (mainly to cut up the cake), a compass and a gps (for real emergencies).
My winter climbing pack was the lightest I could buy (650 grams) so I can be up a route and off the hill before dark and is big enough that i can get my legs in it for extra insulation if I do get stuck out. My mate's pack is 300g heavier, that's the weight of my down gilet and a kingsize mars bar. I know which I'd rather be carrying!
In the past I have carried a titanium mug and a wee gas stove but only if I was expecting an extended wait on top of a hill for a group. I don't bother now as it's too much faff for the minimal morale boost/warmth rise; I'd rather extra warm layers and a double decker.
I have sat on lakeland mountains in some really nasty conditions for hours waiting for Dof E groups with the above and been perfectly comfortable, I would be confident thatI could extend that stay overnight and survive until morning. Wouldn't be very comfortable but I don't expect to have to do it. After all if I've planned my trip correctly benightment won't happen barring injury.
If I was trogging through lower wooded areas then the saw, axe, knife etc might get a look in but I generally only carry them if I intend to use them othewise the kit above is still my best bet.
maybe for a breif time but its more the extra blood there doing a different job than keeping your other vital organs functioning that the issue....
This one seems to too and fro in first aid courses tbh. My most recent mountain first aid course (this year) was pro drinks. The argument was that hot sugary tea was a, a morale boost and b, had to be sipped slowly so had negligable vasodilatory effect and didn't need a lot of blood to absorb it.
For what it's worth, a 500ml cup of water heated from (lets say ambient hill temp) 10 celcius to 100 will have raised internal energy by 189,000 joules. This equates to approximately 45kcal. Not a lot of heat energy but thermodynamics means that it has to go somewhere and it will raise the body temperature, though 189 kJ won't increase.the temperature of 5 litres of blood by much at all!
The sugar in the tea probably doubles the calorific value mind
For what it's worth, a 500ml cup of water heated from (lets say ambient hill temp) 10 celcius to 100 will have raised internal energy by 189,000 joules. This equates to approximately 45kcal. Not a lot of heat energy but thermodynamics means that it has to go somewhere and it will raise the body temperature, though 189 kJ won't increase.the temperature of 5 litres of blood by much at all!
The sugar in the tea probably doubles the calorific value mind
I know I've done several over the years and nutritionists play quite a role in what I do too
only very locally - you don't get warm hands from swallowing warm water the body uses the fuel in its own processes, if your using your energy/blood to process what your digesting your drawing blood away from your limbs and possibly other internal organs in the extreme
but for what It's worth I wasn't talking about drink so much I mentioned food, digestion of food takes quite a bit out of the body, even raising heart rate under fairly normal cercumstances, absorbing nutrition through fluid is less of an issue as is swallowing something that is easily absorbed and doesn't require breaking down in the gut.
not sure where your going with raising
This illustrates the difference between practising bushcraft and survival. Many of us enjoy learning how to make fire by various primitive methods but if it really comes down to a survival situation where you need a fire then you need to be able to do it quickly and reliably. For most of us that means matches or a lighter and some darned good, dry tinder or even better something like a fuel block or a small tea light candle or similar. So, my survival kit would have a turbo lighter whereas my rambling around bushcraft kit might contain things like flint and steel or a friction fire kit.
Edited for appalling typing.
Fantastic points and info there i recon 
MrCharly,
I do agree with you on moral, good moral can have you thinking clearer and trying to find a solution to your problem rather than just giving up.
My point was though that if you are cold and wet and going into hypothermia i don't think even the best moral in the world would stop the onset of full on hypothermia.
I was also trying to put that into the context that, gram for gram something like a light weight down jacket would have you in a better state physically (i.e, not as cold) than if you substituted that down jacket for a stove, water, fuel, pot and a fire starter.
I realise that can seem a bit of a stretch for some, but how many hikers do you know and how many take a stove on a day hike?
So although say 600g doesn't seem much sitting here, in my experience when folks set out on longer day hikes they do try and keep weight reasonable.
So it was just a gram per gram comparison of what would be better to keep you alive on a cold wet hillside in conjunction with a emergency bivvy bag, warm outer layer like a down jacket or a stove, IMO gram for gram and cm for cm a warm outer layer would stand you in better sted.
Cranmere,
All great points and i do agree with you.
My point was/is that IF you are relying on a fire in a emergency then you need to be absolutely certain you can get one going, even injured.
You also have to be absolutely certain you will be able to have enough fuel, in many of the popular outdoors areas like the Lakes, and even the peak district there are vast vast areas with nothing to burn for fuel.
As i say you can have a flame thrower mounted on your back but if there is no fuel to burn then it's not going to do you any good at all.
Might seem a bit far fetched to some here, but the vast vast majority of my outdoors time is spent on, around or up mountains, many here prefer the woods so fuel or wood to burn won't have come into their decision making process.
If you venture out of woods (not you but in general) then you really have to think that IF a fire is a emergency back up for you to provide heat will there be any wood to burn.
Again just my opinion but a spare warm outer layer like say a down jacket would be a safer more reliable option.
MrCharly,
I do agree with you on moral, good moral can have you thinking clearer and trying to find a solution to your problem rather than just giving up.
My point was though that if you are cold and wet and going into hypothermia i don't think even the best moral in the world would stop the onset of full on hypothermia.
I was also trying to put that into the context that, gram for gram something like a light weight down jacket would have you in a better state physically (i.e, not as cold) than if you substituted that down jacket for a stove, water, fuel, pot and a fire starter.
I realise that can seem a bit of a stretch for some, but how many hikers do you know and how many take a stove on a day hike?
So although say 600g doesn't seem much sitting here, in my experience when folks set out on longer day hikes they do try and keep weight reasonable.
So it was just a gram per gram comparison of what would be better to keep you alive on a cold wet hillside in conjunction with a emergency bivvy bag, warm outer layer like a down jacket or a stove, IMO gram for gram and cm for cm a warm outer layer would stand you in better sted.
Cranmere,
All great points and i do agree with you.
My point was/is that IF you are relying on a fire in a emergency then you need to be absolutely certain you can get one going, even injured.
You also have to be absolutely certain you will be able to have enough fuel, in many of the popular outdoors areas like the Lakes, and even the peak district there are vast vast areas with nothing to burn for fuel.
As i say you can have a flame thrower mounted on your back but if there is no fuel to burn then it's not going to do you any good at all.
Might seem a bit far fetched to some here, but the vast vast majority of my outdoors time is spent on, around or up mountains, many here prefer the woods so fuel or wood to burn won't have come into their decision making process.
If you venture out of woods (not you but in general) then you really have to think that IF a fire is a emergency back up for you to provide heat will there be any wood to burn.
Again just my opinion but a spare warm outer layer like say a down jacket would be a safer more reliable option.
Fantastic points and info there i recon
I was also trying to put that into the context that, gram for gram something like a light weight down jacket would have you in a better state physically (i.e, not as cold) than if you substituted that down jacket for a stove, water, fuel, pot and a fire starter.
Snip
Again just my opinion but a spare warm outer layer like say a down jacket would be a safer more reliable option.
I think the thing here is that a down layer or similar is good hypothermia prevention rather than cure.
If you're mildly hypothermic, I.e. shivering then it'll hopefully do the job but if you've got as far as severe hypothermia then you're just not generating the heat for it to trap. Though having the down and some decent nouse you should never get that far!
I'm not convinced that an emergency stove will tip the scales at 600 grams: my pocket rocket is about 68g and my titanium mug is 74g. The gas is about 150g and an oxo cube is negligible. Still rarely carry it though!
What I was saying was that a hot drink contains heat energy which has to go somewhere or we break thermodynamics (and that would break the universe so let's not do that!)
Assuming minimal heat loss (not practical as there will be a shedload of convective and conductive heat loss) a hot drink will contain 189 kJ of heat energy. As it is a drink (some of) it will be absorbed readily in the large intestine (the sugar should diffuse through the small intestine pretty easily and take minimal digestion). The 189 kJ of thermal energy should raise 5 litres of blood (assuming the same specific heat capacity as water) by 9 Celsius. Obviously it won't as homeostasis will prevent the core temp from raising greatly largely by vasodilation but warm blood at the skin's surface will increase radiative heat loss which should be trapped in the layers of clothing which you are (hopefully) wearing so it should still warm you.
I've not seen any studies pertaining to this but anecdotal accounts have built up to the point that it has entered first aid doctrine and it seems plausible.
Any calories (sorry to switch units) gained from the sugar content will only help increase this warming effect as the body will be able to use them to respire to gain more heat energy.
I'm totally with you on the food front as it does divert blood flow where you don't want it. That said, if I start feeling chilly on goes a top and down goes a mars bar!
If someone has already posted information that corroborates this post, I apologise. I got half way through and lost the will to live. BUT......
what use is making a hot drink vs sticking on an extra jumper.
Can we all agree that, in principle, putting an extra insulation layer onto an inactive hot water tank will not increase the ambient core temperature of the tank, unless the external temperature is higher than the internal temperature. In which case the insulating layer inhibits, not stops, the re-equalising of the temperatures.
So, in order to increase the internal temperature, we have to increase the external temperature and allow for equilibrium to slowly occur OR we have to input an energy source which would activate the regulatory sensors, therefore activating the heating element. IN THIS CASE, option 1 is not possible, so far.
Option 2 would be to provide an energy source with allows the following events to occur.
Science.
Now the human bit.
Humans can by defeated or exhilerated by the smallest factor. An action or even a thought. Watch 100 mtr runners. They focus.
In the face of insurmountable odds, they have to learn to believe in themselves.
They mere act of thinking about making a cup of tea provides a short lived motivation.
The activity involved in preparing the tea increases the blood flow, affects the emotional response. This is the survival factor, this is the win or quit and die moment. The drinking of the tea WITH SUGAR or the drinking of hot chocolate provides 2 things. The heat of the fluid in the body core helps to raise internal temperature, provides the flame. The sugars provide instant energy, the fuel. This is not enough. But its the start. Now you have the capability to use the energy to create body heat. The insulation layer only restricts heats passage to the external environment, not stop it. You need a more sustainable food source to continue, but the instant fuel is used by the brain to help with thinking processes, even if the manual processes are severely restricted.
If fine motors skills are inactive, we tend to use gross motor skills to achieve our aim. Stuff hot food into our mouths, burning our mouths, blistering our hands? We don't care because we can't feel it. If we can feel it, things aren't as bad as we thought.
We need the fuel source to metabolise and create body heat. The insulation only retains what we have produced.
Ask any fire if it needs a blanket more than fuel, heat or oxygen.
That's science
what use is making a hot drink vs sticking on an extra jumper.
Can we all agree that, in principle, putting an extra insulation layer onto an inactive hot water tank will not increase the ambient core temperature of the tank, unless the external temperature is higher than the internal temperature. In which case the insulating layer inhibits, not stops, the re-equalising of the temperatures.
So, in order to increase the internal temperature, we have to increase the external temperature and allow for equilibrium to slowly occur OR we have to input an energy source which would activate the regulatory sensors, therefore activating the heating element. IN THIS CASE, option 1 is not possible, so far.
Option 2 would be to provide an energy source with allows the following events to occur.
Science.
Now the human bit.
Humans can by defeated or exhilerated by the smallest factor. An action or even a thought. Watch 100 mtr runners. They focus.
In the face of insurmountable odds, they have to learn to believe in themselves.
They mere act of thinking about making a cup of tea provides a short lived motivation.
The activity involved in preparing the tea increases the blood flow, affects the emotional response. This is the survival factor, this is the win or quit and die moment. The drinking of the tea WITH SUGAR or the drinking of hot chocolate provides 2 things. The heat of the fluid in the body core helps to raise internal temperature, provides the flame. The sugars provide instant energy, the fuel. This is not enough. But its the start. Now you have the capability to use the energy to create body heat. The insulation layer only restricts heats passage to the external environment, not stop it. You need a more sustainable food source to continue, but the instant fuel is used by the brain to help with thinking processes, even if the manual processes are severely restricted.
If fine motors skills are inactive, we tend to use gross motor skills to achieve our aim. Stuff hot food into our mouths, burning our mouths, blistering our hands? We don't care because we can't feel it. If we can feel it, things aren't as bad as we thought.
We need the fuel source to metabolise and create body heat. The insulation only retains what we have produced.
Ask any fire if it needs a blanket more than fuel, heat or oxygen.
That's science
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