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Bury or burn?

Discussion in 'Bushcraft Chatter' started by Wayland, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Yes, grease proof paper.
    To be frank, I have no clue how old that tech is, and what they did before that.
    Of course, there were no hobby bushcrafters thrn, but the travelling people and Armed Forces must have wrapped their food in something??

    I have falled for the ‘environment frirndly BS many, many times. But I am one of those nerds that like to fig in books ( and Internet) to discover the bare truth.

    It is disappointing usually. I am a true Optimist, but sadly, a deep Pessimist about our future.

    Just so you know, there will be a new kind of ‘plastic’ anslog on the market soon, there has bern a breakthrough in Sweden how to synthesize Ethyl ( I think it was) efficiently and (fairly) cheaply, which will make it possible to make a similar material to plastics from cellulose.
    Of course it will be still more expensive than oil based plastic, so poorer countries will continue flooding the World with it.......

    I think that the most environmentally friendly thing is to buy a quality product and use it for as long as you can.
    Be it plastic or Tin.
    Buy Tuppenware and use it for the next 40 years. That is all good! :)
     
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  2. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    It might be sooner and cheaper than you expect. Here I often see “bamboo” bedsheets on sale. When I first saw it I assumed wrongly that the base material was woven from milled bamboo strands. I learned Tha instead it’s just a synthetic material similar to rayon, nylon, or dacron (all plastics) but rather than being made from petroleum it was made from bambo(presumably the cellulose)
     
  3. santaman2000

    santaman2000 M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    True about carrying it out as well as in, but not really the whole,picture: the weight of the empty tins coming out is considerably lighter than going in. Add to that the normal practice of flattening the empty tins first means they also pack up in a smaller space.
     
  4. Deekin

    Deekin Full Member

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    People need to look at the bigger picture. Two cafe's in my area boast green credentials. One uses cutlery and crockery sourced from charity shops, boot sales, and auction rooms. Easily washed after each use and ready to go. The other, "Recyclable" paper, delivered by truck from afar, and then taken away by another truck after one use, to be recycled somewhere afar by some source that released pollutants into the atmosphere. The one that uses the paper is very trendy. "Green consumerism" is very trendy, but not very "switched on".
     
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  5. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    You are so correct!
    We are flooded with bamboo derived products from SE Asia, all bragging how environment friendly they are.

    I have been to Vegan restauants, that serve on (disgusting) reusable Bamboo plates, with one use only disposable bamboo cutlery.

    Makes no sense. S/s restaurant quality cutlery lasts for decades.

    I wish somebody with knowledge, no political or other agenda, could do a proper, as correct as possible, calculation of the environment impact of things.

    For those happy to buy Bamboo stuff, check what Melamine is, and remember that the melamine coming from that country is low grade.
    Recall the Melamine poisonings through milk replacements?
    Melamine used as glue is the most unstable.

    Want to be environment friendly? Use an enameled plate. Or a Tin plate. Or just eat from the pan.
    We can not avoid plastic bags. You can do what everybody did in the old Eastern Europe ( behind the Iron Border). Take home and wash, and reuse. Can be done many times!
     
  6. Deekin

    Deekin Full Member

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    It's "kidology ". Making people believe that this next "thing" will save the planet and make their, and their children's life better. It's nonsense. The Land Rover analogy is partially correct, but whats wrong with an 80 ? Stick a Fairey overdrive in it and a set of parabolic springs, and the journey is quite acceptable.
    [​IMG]
    Or a Model T, They're good off road.



    Stick a Chicago 3 speed gearbox and a Rukstell two speed axle, and they do 60 mph, and the body is made out of decent Vanadium steel that doesnt rot too quick.
     
  7. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I wish I had an 80. With our speeds here, I would keep it original!
    Not keen on the T. Never liked it. I prefer cars from the 1930's.

    I find that the 'Environment friendly' thing has derailed.
    A Defender Diesel ( not so much the V8) are incredibly environment friendly. Last forever.
    A car uses more natural resources and energy up until the first owner starts it than during the next 10 years or so.
    Same applies to the G wagon.

    I plan for my son to inherit mine.
    The cars we have now we intend to keep until thy pry my drivers licenses away from my arthritic hands.....
    Sorry, car dealers!
     
  8. Keith_Beef

    Keith_Beef Native

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    Not comparable.

    it wasn't normal use of melamine dishes that were leaching toxins into food, it was deliberate adulteration of foodstuff.

    As I remember it, these were factories in China that were producing powdered milk for babies. To boost the results of tests to measure protein levels, the factories added powdered melamine to the powdered milk... The nitrogen in the melamine molecules gave higher protein readings.

    Ah, here we go.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
     
  9. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    For sure, but the Melamine glue in a Bamboo plate/cup is more unstable than a melamine plate. So you will ingest some.
    Toxic effect? Probably not much.
    Would I risk it if I was young? No.
    But then we I do not touch any food or canned food from that part of the world. Healthy Paranoia are my middle names!

    https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrE1xSKjNBc0KoAUFFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZmNqNnM3BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDQjcwMTNfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1557200138/RO=10/RU=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550444//RK=2/RS=qoLrjHLBgpbacvUHvxLTCcEyBHE-

    The problem we have today is that the individual toxins, natural and completely 'unnatural', are increasing, the toxin load on our organisms is increasing.
    We do not know what we are doing to the environment including ourselves in the long run.

    Already in many parts of the World, animals in streams and lakes are changing.
    We are seeing a change in us humans too, but part of that could be improved diagnostics.

    To parafrase Tesco - Every little damages....
     
    #109 Janne, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  10. Paul_B

    Paul_B Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    The bamboo / melamine cups and plates should be soaked in boiling water before putting into your compost heap. That's according to some manufacturer's sales blurb. I'm guessing that's to affect the melamine glue to start the breaking down process. No idea what effect that has but it's probably worth mentioning if you plan to dispose of such a cup.

    As for plastics made from cellulose, the new product from Sweden Janne mentioned, well our company has been using a plastic from a French company that is a similar product. We've been using it for 2 or 3 years. It's actually made into a mesh form that's used in greengrocer mesh bags containing such products as oranges, fruit and onions. It's called PLA I understand. Very secretive if you try to find out about it. Very hard to get chemical composition of it, I've tried to for H&S reasons. It's very biodegradable, a matter of weeks in soil or a compost heap.

    IMHO I believe in the ethos I was brought up with, basically don't waste things and keep things going for a long as possible. That was about saving money but now I feel it's more important we do this to save the planet.
     
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  11. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Only a couple of weeks decomposition/ FANTASTIC!

    Sweden does a lot of forest related research. Big business.
    They want to use the branches too.
     
  12. Paul_B

    Paul_B Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)

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    Never tested it but that's the sales blurb. Our use means it's burnt off and never hits landfill. A recent bit of research showed that biodegradable plastics didn't degrade quickly with a biodegradable shopping bag still being strong enough to hold shopping after 6 months (or was it 12 months) of exposure to the sea, soil or air (the 3 sets of tests). Compostable bags were better but not that good.
     
  13. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    Yes I've put "compostable food waste bags" in my compost bin and they were still there a year later. Slugs love to eat them though! They might work in hot composting, but not in my normal cold compost bin. The waste food recycling companies usualy use hot composting as it's much quicker.
     
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  14. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Mum used to have stiff shopping bags from Sisal. Soft ones made from Canvas.
    Lasted for decades. I saw one of the Sisal bags when we emptied the carage after dad poassed away 2 years ago. He stored engine oil bottles in it.
    Dirty, still OK.

    Are we to modern to keep a quality bag in the car to use when we shop? What is wrong with us???
     
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  15. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    Going back to the original question - what happens if you burn a compostable plastic bag?
    Any toxins and such?
     
  16. Keith_Beef

    Keith_Beef Native

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    I don't think PLA (poly-lactic acid) would compost well in my garden compost heap. Two to three weeks is in a controlled industrial composter at 58°C. I don't see steam coming off my garden compost heap in winter...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid
     
  17. Woody girl

    Woody girl Full Member

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    I love those sisal bags. I have a couple. Realy realy strong and long lasting. Can be composted if you do manage to wreck it.
    I have also made cotton ones from odd bits of material left over from other projects. I'll never need to buy another bag as long as I live.
    When shopping at my local co op I return as many plastic bags as I can at the till. ie if I buy a cauliflower with plastic wrap I take it out of the wrap while at the till and give it to the assistant saying I don't want it thanks. Make it a problem for the retailer not yourself. It won't change unless you make the effort to make it their problem.
    I unwrap potatoes at the till and pop them into either a muslin bag or paper bag that I've taken with me, which is then put into my shopping bag.
    But to go back to the origional question just don't take it out with you to a camp. Decant sausages and bacon into tupperware. Bread can go into a paper bag or kept in a cloth bag. Tins are packed out. Rice and pasta can also be decanted into a tupperware box. Where there is a will there is a way. I like wax wraps at camp light compact washable and reuseable. What's not to like?
     
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  18. Janne

    Janne M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)

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    I hope that todays 'wax paper' is not some plastic lined paper?
    Some wax papers react like the old ones, they go wet from the sliced tomato where it creases, but some ( usually supermarket Deli counter) does not.

    BTW: They all are made from white paper that has been coloured Brown, to look more Organic, Oldfashioned and Environmental Friendly....
     
  19. Broch

    Broch Full Member

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    Remind me not to join the queue behind you at the till :) It's a good concept but, I think, rather than put the stress on the poor till-person, I would unpack it and leave the wrapping somewhere at the entrance where management are more likely to have to deal with it.

    If the food is well wrapped in plastic I am happy to take it out with me as long as I bring it back to recycle. I don't see much point in re-packing it unnecessarily. If I buy fresh or paper-packed I agree - into a reusable container.
     
  20. Robson Valley

    Robson Valley Full Member

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    Don't shoot the piano player. Your plastic wrapping was dictated in production.
    It has diddly squat to do with what the retailer is allowed. Rarely do they get to subdivide bulk produce.
    Some of it just might protect you from the pervs that insist on putting dress-maker's pins in all the apples (fact.)
    The same as the metallic seal in the tops of most pill bottles.
    The ones that take 10 minutes to open might save you from Fentanyl.
     

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