Stove Fuels
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You mean 480mls?
OK thanks.
Did you use a lid on your pan? You havent used as much fuel in your tests as I would have expected - I should have said I didnt use a lid.
OK thanks.
Did you use a lid on your pan? You havent used as much fuel in your tests as I would have expected - I should have said I didnt use a lid.
Your just wasting fuel."Absolutely. As a rough guide, 500ml of meths will boil about the same amount of water as a 100g cannister of gas, give or take (you would probably get a bit more from the gas). From B&Q, a 500ml bottle of meths is £3.98. From here, a 100g cannister of premium Optimus tri-blend gas is £2.40. Delivery costs £4, so you are better off buying a case of 12 cans (£2.73/can), but gas is a lot cheaper than standard B&Q meths, even at the 100g size. It gets much, much cheaper with the larger size cans"
The Methanol is working fine and I won't be switching back to meths anytime soon and its a lot cheaper than gas. I'll use gas, normally take one camping so whoever gets up first can just fire up a brew. Normally take a Lidl Trangia clone with a Booster clone mounted in it, <4 minutes for a litre kettle to boil.
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Doesnt matter with the tests I was doing, as I was looking at relative efficiency. The important thing is what you do for one, you do for all.
I'm surprised by PDA1's meths results though. The SVEA used 7 grams in his test, 6 grams in mine, but he was boiling 130mls more than me. That's reasonable considering warm up etc, still not much more fuel to boil a lot more water. But with the alcohol burners, he used quite a bit less alcohol than I did, to heat 50% more water - even with the trangia clone. I'm curious why? I suspect it's down to things like the type of fuel, the type of pot, the use of a lid, ambient water temp, ambient air temp/pressure/humidity, scale calibration etc. None of that stuff matters when you are just comparing like for like on your own kit, but I think it becomes very important when you are trying to compare tests done in Staffordshire, England with tests in Massachusetts, USA.
PDA1, do you have an Optimus crux (or any similar gas stove)? I would be curious to know what results you get for that using your kit and conditions?
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" I suspect it's down to things like the type of fuel, the type of pot, the use of a lid, ambient water temp, ambient air temp/pressure/humidity"
Sort of stuff I've been going on about
Sort of stuff I've been going on about
" I suspect it's down to things like the type of fuel, the type of pot, the use of a lid, ambient water temp, ambient air temp/pressure/humidity"
Sort of stuff I've been going on about
Yeah, but as I've been trying to say, if I'm testing one of my stoves under my methodology, these variables dont matter, so long as they are all the same for all the tests - which mine were. You get relative results, rather than absolute results - the actual numbers dont matter, it's the relationship between them that is significant. The only problem is when someone else does tests using their methodology, on different stoves and tries to compare the results.
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And you'd be right - for your particular kit. But different cookers require different bits of kit to work most efficiently (windshields focussing heat that might otherwise disperse in atmosphere instead of warming the water etc, optimum pot size/material for the type of flame and so on). For example, a mini-Trangia kit (28?) is less efficient than a SAT stove with the same burner, because the windshield focusses the heat and reduces ambient loss. A Civvie Trangia (25/27) is more efficient still for the same reasons, but would be much less so if you tried to heat a 10 or 14" Zebra billy on it. A Petrol or paraffin stove like the Optimus 111 will be much better in wind because it has a more fierce flame than a trangia, so more heat would reach the pot. And thats before getting into the usage period/burn time, comparative weight of cookers and fuel, and so on.
Which is why its all a bit difficult to produce "comparable" figuers for stoves. Probably the safest way is to say "this type of fuel provides this much calorific energy per weight/volume" and take it from there. I remember reading that hikers in the US tend to use alcohol stoves (nearly 80% in many cases) because the stoves are incredibly light, their food is mainly dehydrated just needing boiling in a Ti mug, and alcohol is readily available all along most popular trails so no need to carry more than 8 oz or so.
2 American cups = about 475 ml. 2 Imperial cups would be 25% more (or about 594 ml)
Remember this is BCUK. They still work with Imperial measures and an Imperial cup = 10 ounces (or 25 % more)
We're an odd mix when it comes to weights and measures. Officially, we're all kilometres, kilograms and millilitres, but we still use pints in the pub, pounds when we're buying potatoes and meat and miles to the nearest petrol station. We buy our fuel in litres and measure our fuel economy in miles per gallon (imperial, naturally). Our speed limit signs are all in miles per hour, as is our cars tacograph. Though when it comes to measuring stuff (well lengths of stuff shorter than a mile), we're metric. Everything is metres, centimetres and milimetres, though if you were giving someone directions, it'd probably be in yards. You almost never hear fluid ounces referred to any more - that's old-fashioned - milk comes in litres. Most mechanics have 2 sets of tools, one metric, one imperial. 
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So, they only really give a good indication of performance then. Have you done any tests with the 123 on its own then using in the Sigg Tourest set? You will see a big difference or at least I did.
You can level that criticism and it would be more true for some stoves than others. The jetboil is an obvious example. Though the trangia can be used in many different setups, as can the evernew, the point of this was to measure efficiency with regard to keeping weight low. A trangia in it's own windshield would blow the weight savings to bits, so pointless measuring it in that windshield, even if it does run more efficiently. The Evernew doesn't have a particular pot, neither does the crux, nova or SVEA. In that regard, they should all perform well in a wide based pot, made from aluminium with a heat flux ring on the base of the kind seen on the jetboil and etapower pots. Enter the Optimus Terra weekend. It's a 1 litre pot, just over 5" wide and probably represents a good median. I'm sure it would be possible by tweaking the windshields and pot design, to optimise these a little, but I very much doubt it would make any significant difference on the stoves tested.
If you have a suggestion for something that could improve the efficiency of any of the stoves I tested that would not shatter the stoves weight to efficiency ratio, a different pot size or whatever, I'd like to hear it? I honestly dont think any of the stoves I tested would perform better by using a different pot. The weekend is a very efficient pot and outperforms all the others I own, with the exception of the jetboil.
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Not performance, efficiency. To measure performance, you would have to time how long it takes to boil. Efficiency, is simply a measure of how much fuel gets used.
We are going round in circles here, I've said this several times now....
Do I need to use different words or something? What bit of it is hard to grasp?
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To be honest Rik, it doesnt really matter. It performed very well, but the base weight of the stove will always put it behind gas, it needs to be primed, so more fuel used that is not heating water (whether meths, paste or it's own petrol it all weighs something) and petrol contains about the same calories as gas, so no gains to be made there. It's a good stove - a great stove, but it'll never be lighter or more efficient than a gas stove (at sea level in mild conditions).
I think we're going round in circles here! If you are ultralight backpacking these sorts of comparisons are quite interesting (although less than valid if you can stock up daily/regularly on gasbottles, or meths, or Coleman white fuel etc). And we all know that meths is only approximately half as thermally efficient by volume as gas/petrol/paraffin etc, so if you use meths you'll need more per litre of water boiled. But pretty much everything else is dependent on a whole host of variables relating to any outing - temperature, altitude, terrain, availability of wood, backpacking or bike/motorbike/car camping, time spent away from resupply, emergency backup, usage (occasional brew or decent meal cooking), numbers being cooked/brewed for, availability of water, reliability of relevant stove, possible dual-purpose capability, ability to use vehicle fuel in stove and hundreds of others - including the main one - fun playing with stove!.
Absolutely, and testing them was fun too. 
What we know theoretically is that gas stoves should be the most efficient.
What the test showed (within the very limited remit of a benchtest) was that gas is most efficient.
No big headlines there then.
What we know theoretically is that gas stoves should be the most efficient.
What the test showed (within the very limited remit of a benchtest) was that gas is most efficient.
No big headlines there then.
Funnily enough Martyen, I don't actually have any canister stove. there is a really good field test here:
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/rev...on Optimus Crux/Owner Review by Ray Estrella/
The BPL tests include
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi...ghtweight_canister_stoves_review_summary.html
which tests 10 canister stoves under standardised lab conditions The Crux is one
results summary
weight per boil of 1 litre 60f water to 212 first figure still air, second 12 mph wind
crux 13gm/27
Pocket Rocket 16/34
Snow Peak Giga Power 12/25
Jetboil 10/10
Well worht the 25USD sub for this emag. All reviews by active hikers. Good forum as well (though not better than this
Figures show that not only alcohol stoves are effected dramatically by wind
Canister sto ves benefit from windscreening, but you must be extremely careful, as overheated canisters can (do) explode with devastating results. Jetboil has a great deal going for it if it wasn't so heavy.
Two boils a day is pretty standard fpr through hiking in the summer in the US. The need for distance almost always leads to "lunch" being cold (relative at 90 inthe shade) with trail mix and energy bar type of stuff. Many only brew one cup for coffee in the am and have a cold breakfast. Real ultras and ridge runners eat/drink only cold and leave any kind of stove at home! Rainy days can lead to "camping" and enviously watching canister stovers baking bannock and biscuit (a type of savoury scone) . These require simmering for 20-25 minutes and make Utras weep
BTW you were right to question my acohol bottle, I had misread my notes. It was 15 gm, not 5. I use a .5 litre mineral water bottle. Incidentally, I usually carry 4 fluid ounces (ca. 100 gm) for a weekend hike to have a reserve. Still lighter than any other. For the Tlite setup, I use a Heineken pot (RIP) that weighs 23gm with an Al foil lid.
I count myself as lightweight, not ultra. Ultras have got total pack plus summer gear down to 5 lb not including food and water, which is really minimalist.
One thing we have not considered is "soul" Apart from the Assaklit. I made all of the stoves I have. It took a while to get them to work this efficiently, and there may be more to come! That's soulful. However, I have to say, that nothing comes close to the wonderful soulful sound of the 123 with it muffled ram jet roar.
I have to admit though that canister stoves sooo easy and (almost) idiot proof to use. If I wasn't so cheap, I'd probably buy one.
BTW, why is the Assaklit more efficient than a real trangia? Probably the lighter weight. Less thermal mass to heat up. A soda can trangia typre at 30 gm will probably outperform both once you have tested a hundred jet patterns to find the "best", and using a Red Bull type can to reduce weight, and maybe making it a side burner so a stand becomes redundant.
BTW use the spread sheet I linked to compare different numbers of boils per day and other variables.
,
. there is a really good field test here:http://www.backpackgeartest.org/rev...on Optimus Crux/Owner Review by Ray Estrella/
The BPL tests include
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi...ghtweight_canister_stoves_review_summary.html
which tests 10 canister stoves under standardised lab conditions The Crux is one
results summary
weight per boil of 1 litre 60f water to 212 first figure still air, second 12 mph wind
crux 13gm/27
Pocket Rocket 16/34
Snow Peak Giga Power 12/25
Jetboil 10/10
Well worht the 25USD sub for this emag. All reviews by active hikers. Good forum as well (though not better than this
Figures show that not only alcohol stoves are effected dramatically by wind
Canister sto ves benefit from windscreening, but you must be extremely careful, as overheated canisters can (do) explode with devastating results. Jetboil has a great deal going for it if it wasn't so heavy.
Two boils a day is pretty standard fpr through hiking in the summer in the US. The need for distance almost always leads to "lunch" being cold (relative at 90 inthe shade) with trail mix and energy bar type of stuff. Many only brew one cup for coffee in the am and have a cold breakfast. Real ultras and ridge runners eat/drink only cold and leave any kind of stove at home! Rainy days can lead to "camping" and enviously watching canister stovers baking bannock and biscuit (a type of savoury scone) . These require simmering for 20-25 minutes and make Utras weep
BTW you were right to question my acohol bottle, I had misread my notes. It was 15 gm, not 5. I use a .5 litre mineral water bottle. Incidentally, I usually carry 4 fluid ounces (ca. 100 gm) for a weekend hike to have a reserve. Still lighter than any other. For the Tlite setup, I use a Heineken pot (RIP) that weighs 23gm with an Al foil lid.
I count myself as lightweight, not ultra. Ultras have got total pack plus summer gear down to 5 lb not including food and water, which is really minimalist.
One thing we have not considered is "soul" Apart from the Assaklit. I made all of the stoves I have. It took a while to get them to work this efficiently, and there may be more to come! That's soulful. However, I have to say, that nothing comes close to the wonderful soulful sound of the 123 with it muffled ram jet roar.
I have to admit though that canister stoves sooo easy and (almost) idiot proof to use. If I wasn't so cheap, I'd probably buy one.
BTW, why is the Assaklit more efficient than a real trangia? Probably the lighter weight. Less thermal mass to heat up. A soda can trangia typre at 30 gm will probably outperform both once you have tested a hundred jet patterns to find the "best", and using a Red Bull type can to reduce weight, and maybe making it a side burner so a stand becomes redundant.
BTW use the spread sheet I linked to compare different numbers of boils per day and other variables.
,
Funny you should mention that, my latest purchase is a new Jetboil Sol, smaller, lighter, faster etc...
[video=youtube;RXEhCCnFd-4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXEhCCnFd-4[/video]
[video=youtube;b0QhKo5VgIs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0QhKo5VgIs[/video]
Be interesting to compare gas consumption to the Jetboil classic PCS.
I've got a friend who lives in Aberdeenshire, up in the north of Scotland and he hikes often in the highlands. The conditions are often "alpine" and can change very quickly. He swears by the jetboil even though it's a bit heavier than other stoves, simply because when the weather turns, he can crawl inside a bothy bag and sit holding the jetboil between his leg, brew up and get a bit of warmth too. There is no was you could do that with any other stoves. He's normally a lightweight hiker and hates the weight of it, but you wont part him from it - unless it's for a newer, lighter one.
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Enough of this gramme weenie stuff, move on to stoves that make proper meals mincing about with Jetboils is fun but men need proper food, get some stew in the pan and sod the amount of fuel used 500ml curry don't cut it for me.
mincing about with Jetboils is fun but men need proper food, get some stew in the pan and sod the amount of fuel used 500ml curry don't cut it for me.
LOL.
You know, I dont understand why anybody needs to be in one camp or the other. It's not like we're supporting a football team here. It's all good.
The Jetboil Sol is my latest stove, but this is my latest pot (though it'll need something a bit bigger than a jetboil to warm it up)....
An 8.5 litre Dutch oven, weighs about 9 kilos. That's a Benchmade 710 on top for scale.
As yet unused. Unfortunately, It arrived the day after I left for my last camping trip in October, which was anything but lightweight....
Fortunately, one of the other lads had bought a Dutch oven so we used that to braise roast a 4lb joint of topside beef for 4 hours, then pulled it apart - knife not necessary - and slapped it onto flour bams with onions and gravy. Fantastic. On this trip I took a Partner Steel double burner and a 6 kilo bottle of propane, an optimus crux, a SVEA123 + SIGG tourist, an Optimus Nova ...and a jetboil - they all got used. Though the double gas burner would have done everything apart from roast the beef.
What you like is what you like, use whatever makes you happy, just dont sit in one camp, open your mind, you might find other thing make you happy too. Jetboil's to Ducth ovens, it's all good.
You know, I dont understand why anybody needs to be in one camp or the other. It's not like we're supporting a football team here. It's all good.
The Jetboil Sol is my latest stove, but this is my latest pot (though it'll need something a bit bigger than a jetboil to warm it up)....
An 8.5 litre Dutch oven, weighs about 9 kilos. That's a Benchmade 710 on top for scale.
As yet unused. Unfortunately, It arrived the day after I left for my last camping trip in October, which was anything but lightweight....
Fortunately, one of the other lads had bought a Dutch oven so we used that to braise roast a 4lb joint of topside beef for 4 hours, then pulled it apart - knife not necessary - and slapped it onto flour bams with onions and gravy. Fantastic. On this trip I took a Partner Steel double burner and a 6 kilo bottle of propane, an optimus crux, a SVEA123 + SIGG tourist, an Optimus Nova ...and a jetboil - they all got used. Though the double gas burner would have done everything apart from roast the beef.
What you like is what you like, use whatever makes you happy, just dont sit in one camp, open your mind, you might find other thing make you happy too. Jetboil's to Ducth ovens, it's all good.
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