Stove Fuels

[johnboy]

The Reactor is a good stove from a lot of view points but the main one is it uses a pressure regulator so the stove can effectively operate on very low vapour pressure. Which is what you get when your gas can is nearing the end of its life or the stove is being used in very cold conditions..The Soto OD1 uses a simlilar pressure regulation concept.

The Reactor also uses a infra red type burner which is quite large in diameter this mated to the specific pot it is supplied with means very effective heat transfer.. it's also pretty wind resistant...

HTH John

 

[Andy BB]

When no wood available, you can always burn grasses etc in a kelly kettle, or sheep/cowdung, or old bones, or animal fat/skin Try doing that in your MSR!

 

[rik_uk3]

When no wood available, you can always burn grasses etc in a kelly kettle, or sheep/cowdung, or old bones, or animal fat/skin Try doing that in your MSR!

Try doing that on the Beacons where it tends to be a tad damp for most of the year That said, you could get the fire going with a bit of paraffin from your stove

 

[Andy BB]

True!

Truth be told, my all-time favourite stove is probably my 111, followed closely by My Optimus Trapper and/or the Turm Tourist, or my SAT, or................

Which all goes to show that stove choice is rarely defined by the odd half-pound differences in weight/fuel unless one is massively into ultra-light camping. And I suppose if one is really paranoid about weight, a diet would probably be more efficacious

 

[rik_uk3]

I was at nearly 12,000 ft on Mt. Wheeler at the time. In the Humbolt range in Nevada. I was actually camping somewhat lower but the forest kept growing all the way to the top.

Have they relaxed regulations on open fires in national parks in the States? Talking to chums over there it seems that regulations are really tight in some areas...rightly so given the risk of burning down a thousand +++ acres due to a stray spark etc.

That said, there is something very satisfying about cooking over an open fire...as is the hiss of a lantern or the purr of a stove; horses for courses as they say.

 

[santaman2000]

Have they relaxed regulations on open fires in national parks in the States? Talking to chums over there it seems that regulations are really tight in some areas...rightly so given the risk of burning down a thousand +++ acres due to a stray spark etc.

That said, there is something very satisfying about cooking over an open fire...as is the hiss of a lantern or the purr of a stove; horses for courses as they say.

Mt Wheeler was/is in the Humbolt National "Forest." Not the same as a National "Park." That said, generally the fire restrictions (the type you're talking about anyway) aren't set by the National Park Service or the National Forest Service. They're usually set by the local (county) fire marshal due to local fire safety conditions and apply to ALL lands, public and private. Sometimes they may encompass an entire State if the conditions are severe enough to warrant action from the State Fire Marshal

To my knowledge the fire restrictions are still in place in Arizona and Texas. I'm unaware of any here in Florida.

 

[rik_uk3]

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I only know what I've been told in that you pretty much can't just stop and light a fire, certainly in the dry period. One of the stovies in California said in many places you had to use fixed fire pits/areas at certain time of the year.

 

[ateallthepies]

Ta for the Reactor info John.

Steve.

 

[santaman2000]

Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I only know what I've been told in that you pretty much can't just stop and light a fire, certainly in the dry period. One of the stovies in California said in many places you had to use fixed fire pits/areas at certain time of the year.

When the conditions are bad enough, even the fire pits are banned. I'm not sure about right now but at the height of the drought/heat wave in Texas even BBQ grills in the back yard were a no-no. Apparently it wasn't enough though, as over 1500 homes were destroyed last month. www.kxan.com/dpp/news/information-on-fires-in-central-texas

 

[rik_uk3]

When the conditions are bad enough, even the fire pits are banned. I'm not sure about right now but at the height of the drought/heat wave in Texas even BBQ grills in the back yard were a no-no. Apparently it wasn't enough though, as over 1500 homes were destroyed last month. www.kxan.com/dpp/news/information-on-fires-in-central-texas

We don't know how lucky we are sometimes.

 

[Martyn]

We don't know how lucky we are sometimes.

Yeah, I suppose one of the hidden benefits living in a country that has over 200 days a year of rain, is that nobody is worried about stuff catching fire. Though we did have some fires earlier this year, it's rare.

 

[gliderrider]

What you mean is "living on an island where the water board claim a drought after 200 days of rain " Personally, I cant see how we can have a drought in the uK, de salinate the sea water and we can drink like kings, but I digress.

 

[Martyn]

What the water board mean is if the dry spell lasts more than a fortnight, they might have to spend some money and plug some of the gushing leaks in the 200 year old infrastructure, that they usually ignore because the country is sopping wet for most of the year. It's just cheaper to ask everybody to go easy on the hosepipes for the 2 weeks in May when the sun shines.

 

[FGYT]

What you mean is "living on an island where the water board claim a drought after 200 days of rain " Personally, I cant see how we can have a drought in the uK, de salinate the sea water and we can drink like kings, but I digress.

well if your a king and can afford a desalinator plant yes you can

 

[PDA1]

I tested three acohol stoves, plus the 123 for mass used per 16 oz boil. In all cases, 60 deg f water as heated to 212 deg f, which is a very vigourous rolling boil. Using temperature reached removes any subjectivity in judging a rolling boil visually.
Weights checked with kitchen digital scale which weighs to whole grams.
Usage calculation for solo backpacker using 2 cups water for each meal (1 cup for dehydrated meal, 1 cup for tea/coffee)



1 Tea lite cup with hardwear cloth stand and aluminium foil windscreen - 11 gm used
tealite + stand 14 gm, screen 11 gm, total 25 gm

2 Trangia clone (assaklit) with same windscreen - 13 gm used
stove + stand + screen 80 gm

3 Super cat stove same windscreen - 16 gm used

3 123 7 gm fuel used.

Total start carry weight for a weekend: 1boil friday evening, 2 Sat, one Sunday

tlite - 74 gm

Supercat - 87 gm

Assakit - 137 gm

typical gas stove with 100 g canister - 300+ gm

Total carry weight for 14 day trip (26 boils)

tlite - 272 gm
Supercat - 439 gm
assakit - 413 g
typical gas stove with 227 gm canister ca. 400 gm.



.5 litre fuel bottle weighed 5 gm


Backpackinglight.com has tested multiple stoves using standardized conditions (including wind) and make for interesting reading.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi...ghtweight_canister_stoves_review_summary.html
compares numerous canister stoves
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_alcohol_stoves_test_report
compares a number of alcohol stoves
http://www.howardjohnson.name/Backpacking/Stove/Stoves.htm
is a spreadsheet for calculating total weight for various length trips using different stoves

So as you can see, there is an enormous amount of test data on this subject. The subject is extensively discussed (and measured) on Whiteblaze.com the forum for AT thru hikers (for whom weight is a very important consideration). and is a very good resource for backpackers.

I know that because of the frequent rainy weather in the UK ( iwas brought up in Cheshire, and hiked in Snowdonia and the Lakes a lot) many cook in tent vestibules. Be careful to make sure it is well ventilated, particularly if using alcohol as a fuel. Combustion is usually incomplete. and a distressingly high amount of CO is produced.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide_pt_4.html
is one of many reviews on this site.

Canister stoves have much to commend them - ease of use being pretty high, but weight advantage over alcohol is not one of them for the solo backpacker. Group cooking (particularly if you really cook) is, as they say a different kettle of fish, and winter camping at atitude for a group will almost certainly make the liquid fuel type of stove a strong contender, but even there, inverted remote canister stoves are closing the gap.

Not considered here is cost. There my alcohol stoves are really attractive. soda can stoves, and cat food and tlite stoves cost nothing, and the fuel is inexpensive, even compared to white gas or parrafin. Canisters cost a fortune (and I'm cheap).

 

[johnboy]

It may be me but those back packing light articles you linked to need you to be a subscribing member.

Anyhow I'm sure they are interesting and full of useful figures..

I agree that there is a lot of data on the net... The problem is there is no consistent test methodology used.

Martyn used one method you have used another BPL use another I use another so on and so forth... All of them are equally valid and at the same time not valid...

When someone writes a standard for testing we can all use that and agree on the outcomes.

 

[Martyn]

That's interesting, but your figures are based on only 2 boils a day, which is a little minimalist. If you go up to 3 boils a day, gas wins.

The problem is that gas goes up in jumps of either 200g or 340g. If you specify a trip duration, or number of boils that puts you just over a one cannister limit, then you a spinning it against gas. You can get 20 x 500ml boils from one 100g (200g) cannister. If you compare 20x 500ml boils on gas for a total of 280g, to 20x 500ml boils on alcohol, the gas wins. But by specifying 24 boils, you push gas into the next cannister size, which is a 200g jump. I would personally consider 3x boils a day to be a minimum and in reality, it would probably be 5.

But based on your number, but doing 3 boils a day (19 boils total) a 1 week trip would be

tlite - 234g (+fuel bottle ~ 40g)
assaklit - 327 (+fuel bottle ~ 40g)
Supercat - 329 (+fuel bottle ~ 40g)
Optimus crux + 100g can - 280g.


For a 2 week trip, 38 boils...
tlite - 443g (+fuel bottle ~ 40g)
assaklit - 574g (+fuel bottle ~ 40g)
supercat - 633g (+fuel bottle ~ 40g)
Crux + 230g can - 400g.

You say your fuel bottle weighs 5g, what fuel bottle is that? The cap on mine weighs 5g. Your numbers also assume absolutely no spillage or wastage from the meths, which is a bit unrealistic, recovering 100% of unused fuel (how?) and you are using components that are extremely minimalist and either home made, gossamer thin, fragile, slow, faffy or all of the above, compared to a robust, fast, convenient, commercially available product. Alcohol stoves are also extremely sensitive to wind, and I've never seen a windshield yet (aside from the commercial trangia windshield) that did a competent job of excluding the wind to the point the flame was 100% unaffected.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for alcohol fuel at the extreme end of ultralight backpacking, obviously there is. What I am saying is that even at this extreme end of the ultralight world, there are times when an optimus crux or similar is the lightest option. Alcohol stoves are only the lightest option, if you are into the world of custom made stoves, mesh pot stands, tin foil windshields calculating your exact fuel consumption, cutting the webbing of your rucksack and trimming your shoelaces.

The myth is that because alcohol stoves are popular amongst ultralight backpackers, they are always the lightest choice. This is not true. As soon as you move away from this extreme world and get into simply light, rather than ultralight, as soon as your kit stops being custom made from cold rolled unobtanium, as soon as you stop calculating how many times you are going to boil up and carrying the exact amount of fuel, then alcohol becomes the heavy option, all of the time.

 

[Martyn]

BTW, how much is "2 cups" in mls?

 

[rik_uk3]

PDA1 said

"Not considered here is cost. There my alcohol stoves are really attractive. soda can stoves, and cat food and tlite stoves cost nothing, and the fuel is inexpensive, even compared to white gas or parrafin. Canisters cost a fortune (and I'm cheap). "

Meths/denatured alcohol is expensive now in the UK. I use Methanol which is considerably cheaper. In the UK a US gallon of Coleman fuel is £19/$28, paraffin/kerosene is around £4.75/$7 a US gallon; Methanol works out at @ £5.25/$7.85 USG while methylated spirit is now about the same as Coleman fuel. Gas canister prices vary a lot but if you shop around 100g @ £3/$4.50, 230g @ £3.50/$5.25 and 450g @ £6/$9.

For me paraffin is still the cheapest fuel overall to use for cooking and also (depending on which stove setup is choose to use that trip) the least affected by things like wind and temperature. I've never been the type to try and forecast how many brews I'll make, even when I was still able to back pack.

 

[Martyn]

PDA1 said

"Not considered here is cost. There my alcohol stoves are really attractive. soda can stoves, and cat food and tlite stoves cost nothing, and the fuel is inexpensive, even compared to white gas or parrafin. Canisters cost a fortune (and I'm cheap). "

Meths/denatured alcohol is expensive now in the UK. I use Methanol which is considerably cheaper. In the UK a US gallon of Coleman fuel is £19/$28, paraffin/kerosene is around £4.75/$7 a US gallon; Methanol works out at @ £5.25/$7.85 USG while methylated spirit is now about the same as Coleman fuel. Gas canister prices vary a lot but if you shop around 100g @ £3/$4.50, 230g @ £3.50/$5.25 and 450g @ £6/$9.

For me paraffin is still the cheapest fuel overall to use for cooking and also (depending on which stove setup is choose to use that trip) the least affected by things like wind and temperature. I've never been the type to try and forecast how many brews I'll make, even when I was still able to back pack.

Absolutely. As a rough guide, 500ml of meths will boil about the same amount of water as a 100g cannister of gas, give or take (you would probably get a bit more from the gas). From B&Q, a 500ml bottle of meths is £3.98. From here, a 100g cannister of premium Optimus tri-blend gas is £2.40. Delivery costs £4, so you are better off buying a case of 12 cans (£2.73/can), but gas is a lot cheaper than standard B&Q meths, even at the 100g size. It gets much, much cheaper with the larger size cans.