When open fires break byelaws......

[littlebiglane]

Now, I don't want to cause a linching. And I like a good fire JUST like the next person and I am not admitting that I have not had fires on Dartmoor (or any other National Park) But how does everyone feel about having open fires in a place that has explicit bylaws against it due to the fire-risk? Dartmoor is quite explicit about not having open fires.

LBL

MODs - if I am encouraging talk about non-legal activity (or seem to be sanctioning it ) then please say so - I don't want to endorse it I just am interested in members views as firelighting/open fires is a central thing for us folk.

 

[m.durston]

if the law says no then naturally i wouldnt do it. but i suppose there are situations that would merit a byelaw being broken every now and again.
for example if i was hiking on dartmoor and the weather turned bad forcing me to stop for the night then yeah i would attempt to spark up a fire for warmth, cooking etc.
but then again being a complete kit ***** i would probably have the necessary equipment with me so that a fire wouldnt be an issue .

 

[durulz]

Idiots obey rules and laws.
Wise people use them as guidelines.
If I was in a public park that had signs saying no open fires then I wouldn't, because there would be a good chance of members of public seeing and it may upset them and they may report it and I don't want the hassle of explaining my actions to a park warden who doesn't know me and therefore has no reason to believe that I am entirely responsible person.
However.
Should I be somewhere remote (that also says I may not light an open fire) then I would use my discretion.
Whatever I did choose to do, I would do so responsibly and ensure no risks were taken and no marks were left. If I did light a fire, that is. Which I wouldn't. Etc.

 

[Ogri the trog]

MODs - if I am encouraging talk about non-legal activity (or seem to be sanctioning it ) then please say so - I don't want to endorse it I just am interested in members views as firelighting/open fires is a central thing for us folk.

Thank you for your realisation that this might turn out to be a sensative topic. Acting alone so far, I'm happy for it to run on, provided it stays relatively sensible and within the vein that the original query was posted.
However, if at any time it wanders off topic or openly breaks the forum rules, the entire thread may be removed. It might be that the thread gets removed once it has run its course and your query answered and I hope that it is not seen as draconian, only a measure to maintain the high level of responsibility and law adherance that we aim to portray.

Thanks for your understanding.

Ogri the trog

 

[leon-1]

Now, I don't want to cause a linching. And I like a good fire JUST like the next person and I am not admitting that I have not had fires on Dartmoor (or any other National Park) But how does everyone feel about having open fires in a place that has explicit bylaws against it due to the fire-risk? Dartmoor is quite explicit about not having open fires.

LBL

MODs - if I am encouraging talk about non-legal activity (or seem to be sanctioning it ) then please say so - I don't want to endorse it I just am interested in members views as firelighting/open fires is a central thing for us folk.

Dartmoor's byelaws are very much specific, but most places have their own. I think if your walking the Moor then fine use a camping stove, but every now and again plot in a campsite that allows you to light an open fire. There are a few on the moor so why not make use of them and their facilities to get cleaned up, rest and get more provisions.

What I would like to see would be certain areas (specified areas / stop off points) that allow open fires, they would have pre-existing fire pits for people to use. This does have a bonus and it also has a down side.

The obvious bonus is that there would be specified areas that allow open fire if you so desire to make one, due to the nature of the pre-constructed pit there would be fewer problems with fire prevention.

The down side would be that the national parks authority would prosecute to a higher degree than they currently do anyone caught lighting an open fire in an area where they are not allowed to. Also after a while you would have a number of problems with fuel supply unless you are going to carry it in or you have vendors driving round and dropping it off as they do on some of the campsites in Canada that I've used.

The other option would be a portable, lightweight, firebox and tray arrangement as it would be classed almost like a barbeque which they have not banned on Dartmoor.

The foil trays IMO should be banned on Dartmoor because too many people out there just leave them on the moor for others to clear up and apart from it being a pain in the backside, I don't particularly want to see Dartmoor buried beneath a heap of disposable foil barbeque's that the average Joe Blogg's is either to idle or stupid to clean up afterward.

As you say "I like open fires", but is it worth being prosecuted and getting the fine that you will get slapped with if you get caught lighting a fire where there is no need or requirement.

 

[basha]

Firstly I fully agree with littlebiglane ‘Now, I don't want to cause a linching. And I like a good fire JUST like the next person….’

and durulz ‘If I was in a public park that had signs saying no open fires then I wouldn't, because there would be a good chance of members of public seeing and it may upset them and they may report it and I don't want the hassle of explaining my actions to a park warden who doesn't know me and therefore has no reason to believe that I am entirely responsible person’.

However I think there is the usual ‘sliding scale’ answer to this question; on the one extreme; a fire lit in a tinder-dry location, deliberately ignoring the prohibition/warning signs, ripping down branches (dead or alive), huge bl**dy fire, walk off and leave the thing in the morning with a huge scorch mark and all the beer cans etc left just to make the point “we couldn’t care less”….

On the other hand the carefully selected spot, lifting some turf (assuming your not cutting through some super rare animal or plant in the process !!!) or on a dry part of a stream/riverbed etc. A small fire just for your needs and then leaving no trace when you leave.

Obviously though, both of these scenarios break the rules..

 

[w00dsmoke]

I think we are very selfish when we insist on having open fires. It's a heck of a small island we live on with finite resources and tbh most folk cannot be bothered to do it properly and have the skills to do it properly. Then there's the subject of fuel. I think "bushcraft" is often seen as a legitimate hobby to be justifiable to the individual to carry a small forest axe (if you don't have the landowners permission to cut ANY wood inland in Scotland you are breaking the law) and bucksaw around when they are camping only to decimate both live and dead timber in beauty spots becuase in many cases they can't be bothered carrying in fuel for 5 miles or so.

Now remember, by saying "most folk" I'm including everyone else and not sensible folk who join a site like this to learn how to do it properly. Unfortunalty "most folk" is the majority and camping has now been banned on East Loch lomondside (national park) in certain areas because of it.

For the folks down south I would be very wary and careful if any of you think you have more than a snowballs chance in hell to have access laws like we enjoy in Scotland if you insist on behaving like that. They are already looking into modifying the access laws up here because of this and it's ammunition to be used against you. There is a strong case against making car camping (which those with young families enjoy) ilegal under the act because of mainly the fire issue.

WS

 

[Intertidal]

LBL,
You, like me, have probably seen the scars caused on the moor by irresponsible open fires (e.g. confluence of Amicombe/Rattlebrook; just below Blackator copse). For the National Park Authority, a complete ban is the easiest 'rule' to apply and therefore excludes the competent as well as the incompetent. TBH I don't see how they could anything else on the open moor. If it was allowed in any shape or form, surely the situation would be far worse.
I that regard, I support the ban on fires on Dartmoor, even though I would love to be able to have one myself in an ideal world.

Nick

 

[chas brookes]

Hi
as has been previously mentioned there are those occasions when an open fire can be appropriate and those when it is ill advised. Unfortunately common sense and a sensible approach is not always taken by those practising bushcraft, which can result in us all getting labels of being irresponsible. Often the rules and byelaws are there for a very good reason and in my 30 years in the fire service have seen acres of forestry and heathland destroyed by accidental fires some of which were caused by well intentioned hikers/bushcrafters using open fires and indeed stoves.
It is difficult enough for us to gain access to woodland etc to behave in a responsible way, do we need to jeopardise permissions already gained by the lucky few for the sake of the inconvenience of carrying a stove.
I fully support the lighting of and use of open fires in approved sites and other places with the landowners permission but even then people need to be fully aware fire is our friend but it all to soon can become our enemy.
Thats enough preaching get out there enjoy the autumn colours and have a cup of coffee on what ever fire or stove you can safely use with out getting us all a bad name

 

[leon-1]

On the other hand the carefully selected spot, lifting some turf (assuming your not cutting through some super rare animal or plant in the process !!!) or on a dry part of a stream/riverbed etc. A small fire just for your needs and then leaving no trace when you leave.

The blanket ban is there for a reason and anyone who has experience of the fires that used to happen on very regular basis will understand why.

The problem is that unless you are an authority on the flora and fauna of this country and specifically the region you're camping in (in this case Dartmoor) how are you going to know if you are destroying a minute orchid or unearthing a grub / pupae that will then dry out and die that could possibly be rare or endangered.

I support the leave no trace principal, I believe in it very much so, but our problem is that's just me and a select handful of others that abide by it.

I have as has already been mentioned, been on the moor walking the trails through areas of amazing beauty just to come across an obvious fire pit that has either been left to burn out or has had a token effort to dissipate the resulting devastation all over. The beer bottles / cans, the rubbish that people cannot be bothered to carry out with them.

One such glade was literally on a place on Dartmoor that has got a rare species of orchid and grubs for a specific insect and the area had been ruined.

There are no rules to stop people using camping stoves / barbecues on the open moor or even in some of woodland near the rivers and streams, so why not use them. Take away what you bring in (your rubbish), leave the place as it should be, but don't start fires unless you have the authority to do so (some land owners will allow fires on their land if you ask them first and clean up after yourself).

There are campsites on the moor that will allow open fires, use them if you want one.

The other option would be an authorised group or body that will teach people the correct way of doing things using specific locations approved by the parks authority. Then if you wish to go onto Dartmoor and start a fire you have a guide that will both show you the places where you can and how best to do this whilst leaving no trace. This can be tied in with the authority and monies paid in can then be used by the authority to help manage the national park.

It will never happen in all probability, but it is a nice idea

 

[John Fenna]

Make yourself a Hobo stove!
All the joy of an open fire but classed as a stove!
Very much in the Bushcraft tradition of things as well....easily portable - low fuel needs, legal...all the good stuff.....so why break the law?

 

[Wayland]

John beat me to the Hobo stove thing but if I'm working from a vehicle I use this set up.

I've also been experimenting with one of these from Ikea for a quick BBQ with a bag of charcoal or even a firelog for a bit of warmth afterwards.

It works very well with the meat rack used upside down as a grill.

 

[BushEd]

thats an awesome stove wayland. whats it made from? (i'm assuming you put it together yourself).

My own opinion is as follows:

The reason there are fire bans is because of the fact that as we have seen, most people just scorch the earth and leave the remains after the fire.

But...it seems to me that the way around this is not to just ban people from making fires. People will have fires whether its legal or not...so surely the best way to help preserve the parks is to allow people to have fires; but to encourage and educate people towards a more "leave no trace" approach.

If you sit and talk with most people they have no desire to mess up the environment...they just don't know any better...

Organisations like the national parks should spend more time in educating people about the wilds (which i believe we should all enjoy) and less time trying to turn them into a museum.

 

[falling rain]

The blanket ban is there for a reason and anyone who has experience of the fires that used to happen on very regular basis will understand why.

The problem is that unless you are an authority on the flora and fauna of this country and specifically the region you're camping in (in this case Dartmoor) how are you going to know if you are destroying a minute orchid or unearthing a grub / pupae that will then dry out and die that could possibly be rare or endangered.

I support the leave no trace principal, I believe in it very much so, but our problem is that's just me and a select handful of others that abide by it.

I have as has already been mentioned, been on the moor walking the trails through areas of amazing beauty just to come across an obvious fire pit that has either been left to burn out or has had a token effort to dissipate the resulting devastation all over. The beer bottles / cans, the rubbish that people cannot be bothered to carry out with them.

One such glade was literally on a place on Dartmoor that has got a rare species of orchid and grubs for a specific insect and the area had been ruined.

There are no rules to stop people using camping stoves / barbecues on the open moor or even in some of woodland near the rivers and streams, so why not use them. Take away what you bring in (your rubbish), leave the place as it should be, but don't start fires unless you have the authority to do so (some land owners will allow fires on their land if you ask them first and clean up after yourself).

There are campsites on the moor that will allow open fires, use them if you want one.

The other option would be an authorised group or body that will teach people the correct way of doing things using specific locations approved by the parks authority. Then if you wish to go onto Dartmoor and start a fire you have a guide that will both show you the places where you can and how best to do this whilst leaving no trace. This can be tied in with the authority and monies paid in can then be used by the authority to help manage the national park.

It will never happen in all probability, but it is a nice idea

I was down at the Widdecombe campsite earlier in the year (spring) and fires are no more allowed there because of the clowns kicking the backside out of it. Ridiculous sized massive fires and the decimation of the forested area at the bottom of the site were idiots had gone into cutting down trees to use for their fires. I don't know if the farmer has mellowed and is allowing them again, but as usual a few dolts have ruined it for responsible people.
I really don't blame the farmer. I'd do the same.

 

[Shewie]

We should take a leaf out of the Swedes book and provide purpose built permanent fireplaces. They're lucky over there though in that they can even leave the ironmongery out and it won't get half inched.

Not sure with the culture we have over here whether it would be successful or not, but it's got to be worth a try. Afterall most of the easily accessible camping spots are the ones which suffer the most, car campers are giving the rest of us a bad name because of it.

If a fire is necessary then the hobbo or contained fire is the way to go imho.

 

[armie]

Idiots obey rules and laws.

I obey rules and laws.
You insult me by calling me an idiot.

Wise people use them as guidelines.

"Wise people" i.e. people who consider themselves above the law?

But hey, perhaps it'll work in court, when you're contesting a fine.

 

[Wayland]

thats an awesome stove wayland. whats it made from? (i'm assuming you put it together yourself).

It's made from an old metal cart wheel rim welded onto a sheet of steel.

It stands on three pegs with horizontal cross bars as you can just see in the left foreground and I use some mild steel C shaped frames to provide the stands that the bars, which are simple angle iron, rest on.

The plywood disk sits underneath to prevent heat damaging the ground and is also handy for cooking pizzas on.

It packs up as you can see in the background here and then the plywood disk sits in the top and I chuck it into a sack.

I've since made shorter angle iron bars so they fit into the dish as well now.

I don't always take the griddle stone or the cauldrons but if I do there's not much I can't cook with this rig.

 

[Cobweb]

Wayland's fire tray is very cool and really looks the part in any situation, and as most of us
are only a short walk away from a car/van/whatever, then in possibly damaging situations it's perfect.
Personally for me I like my fir on the floor, but only in areas where it won't pose a problem and it is allowed.

I reckon there should be a license for people who want to make fires, and they should have to pass a
written and practical assessment before being issued a license. Kind of like the DVLA.

I know it won't stop idiots from making fires, but it might just stop a few of them and those who make a fire
and don't have a license would then be up for prosecution.

 

[falling rain]

Wayland's fire tray is very cool and really looks the part in any situation, and as most of us
are only a short walk away from a car/van/whatever, then in possibly damaging situations it's perfect.
Personally for me I like my fir on the floor, but only in areas where it won't pose a problem and it is allowed.

I reckon there should be a license for people who want to make fires, and they should have to pass a
written and practical assessment before being issued a license. Kind of like the DVLA.

I know it won't stop idiots from making fires, but it might just stop a few of them and those who make a fire
and don't have a license would then be up for prosecution.

I say shoot them:AR15firin
But seriously there will always be the rawcous, cackelling maggots who drink their wine until the early hours and construct an enormous conflageration and stuff everyone else.
I've No problem with folks having a bevvy but why impose on everyone else. Have some thought? .............it'll never happen. I love a beer but I never impose. That's the me, selfish, I'm alright Jack world we live in. Well in the UK anyway. As has been mentioned, the Swedish friends and Canadian friends play the game. They've been taught better about the ways of the outdoors.
I love our coast and countryside............ shame about the fools that frequent our treasured places.

 

[leon-1]

I love our coast and countryside............ shame about the fools that frequent our treasured places.

Nice to see that you're looking on the bright side Nick, unfortunately you are correct in what you're saying on many occasions though.

Shame about Cockingford, but the scum of the universe appeared to be descending on the place from a couple of years back. The year that Johan and I were there it had started to go down hill (nothing to do with us) and unfortunately once it starts sliding it's unlikely to stop until it hits rock bottom.