is this morally wrong?

[He' s left the building]

unfortunately no pro boots he was issued the standard assault boots and wooly socks as he was on basic training.

boops its not a case of bluffing, he was told by either the medical examiner or his CO that as he has a work related injury he has the right to sue!!!

because i think in his case its wrong i am going to try and talk him out of sueing the MoD.

A few salient facts coming out now!

He was inadequately equipped, so blame for his injury probably 40% himself and 60% his employer/commander.

His CO and/or Medical Officer has verified that he has been injured and has advised that he has grounds for compensation.

Why are you trying to talk him out of it, should you be interfering in this if you know so little about it?

Maybe, just maybe, his CO and MO want him to persue litigation to make the MOD bean-counters wake up and smell the coffee and ensure the troops are adequately equipped in future?

There are a lot of armchair generals making assumptions on this subject, I find it very interesting that the OP has now revealed this lad was wearing standard issue boots in freezing conditions. This situation has directly lead to the injuries described in the BBC link I posted, foreign soldiers in the Brit Army are now issued Lowa boots in order to help prevent injuries. This lad should have had them as well.

 

[He' s left the building]

ive been useing the issue light weight assault boots for years in all kinds of terrains doing courses with the RAF regiment and Para's, we did all sorts of stuff from a **** of training weekends to 5 day exercise in december, BFT's etc etc

never had a single problem with issue boots and wolly socks

bloody love them i do, one thing the DS told us though, "if you take care of your boots, your boots will take care of you"

not saying i wouldent give them up for a pair of lowa's like, but the issue ones are good kit IMO

morning all,
Im a random 18yr old who lives in north wales with a intrest in bushcraft but not much experience...however I almost have enuff kit to start my own surplus store though.

hope to be chatin to lots of you durein my spell here, till then....

catch ya later

Care to explain how an 18-year old could have done years worth of training with 'the RAF Regt and Paras' ???

If you were in the armed forces you would also know the dress state for BFT is running shoes (issued or self-purchsed UK Gear brand) and not boots.

Have you just outed yourself as an 18-year old Walter Mitty?

 

[m.durston]

A few salient facts coming out now!

He was inadequately equipped, so blame for his injury probably 40% himself and 60% his employer/commander.

His CO and/or Medical Officer has verified that he has been injured and has advised that he has grounds for compensation.

Why are you trying to talk him out of it, should you be interfering in this if you know so little about it?

Maybe, just maybe, his CO and MO want him to persue litigation to make the MOD bean-counters wake up and smell the coffee and ensure the troops are adequately equipped in future?

There are a lot of armchair generals making assumptions on this subject, I find it very interesting that the OP has now revealed this lad was wearing standard issue boots in freezing conditions. This situation has directly lead to the injuries described in the BBC link I posted, foreign soldiers in the Brit Army are now issued Lowa boots in order to help prevent injuries. This lad should have had them as well.

did you not read all the way through my post or did you just pick the bits that are relevant to your argument?
i did say he was the only one to have suffered an injury and before you ask no he isnt a black nigerian he is a white 18 year old brit!!!!
both me and my colleagues in my old TA unit used exactly the same gear as he was issued and because we practised the routine of changing socks and drying feet as often as possible we never suffered any problems in the same sort of conditions.

and yes i do know something about it. he has been walking about and has not been in constant pain like the nigerian fella in the article, in fact the only symptom he described to the doc was his feet stayed numb after being subjected to a bit of cold.
like i said before they told him 6 months and his feet will have fully recovered, but due to army regs on types of injuries versus time served he has been given a medical discharge.
it is the simple fact that he wont be disabled for the rest of his life which is why he should take the 6 months sick pay and not sue.

 

[He' s left the building]

did you not read all the way through my post or did you just pick the bits that are relevant to your argument?

I'm trying to be objective, I'm not cherry-picking the points relevant to either side of the argument, I did state that he may be 40% to blame.

In simple terms, if the MOD agree that they are partially responsible for this career-limiting injury, why shouldn't he be compensated?

Your claim to TA service is irrelevant, it has no relevance to the case in discussion. Thousands of soldiers have tolerated cold climates well with no injury, many have not. We are discussing the latter group, not the former.

 

[Draven]

I'm trying to be objective, I'm not cherry-picking the points relevant to either side of the argument, I did state that he may be 40% to blame.

In simple terms, if the MOD agree that they are partially responsible for this career-limiting injury, why shouldn't he be compensated?

Your claim to TA service is irrelevant, it has no relevance to the case in discussion. Thousands of soldiers have tolerated cold climates well with no injury, many have not. We are discussing the latter group, not the former.

He MAY be 40% to blame because he didn't follow the advice he was given and subsequently got injured? Out of curiosity, do you work for Quantum Claims?

His claim to TA service is completely relevent, and saying that it isn't is a blatant and unashamed example of cherry picking. It demonstrates quite clearly that the kit was adequate, and the person using the kit was at fault. You're basically saying that if a few cars crash because the drivers fail to use the brakes, the cars are poorly built and the brakes are inadequate, and should all be recalled, irrespective of the number of people who found the brakes just fine.

Pete

 

[303Brit]

If he ignored the advice of his NCOs its nothing more than a self inflicted wound.If he was really keen on staying in he would be ashamed he screwed up ,learnt his lesson ,and looking foward to getting back and proving himself.But hes not-he happy he might be discharged, with some money for nothing.

I dont know the guy but he sounds like a bit of a wan*er(might be wrong though?)If he is then the RA has one less waster in it.

If im wrong then i aplogise fully.Hope he recovers fast and is back in action asp

 

[johnboy]

Non Freezing cold injuries can be pretty nasty..

But are generally pretty preventable if you sort your feet out change socks powder feet etc...

I think it's pretty standard to say well if the kit was better then XY or Z might not have happened.. But the reality is NFCI can happen if you're wearing Lowa's if you dont look after you feet and sort out your personal admin when you get 5 minutes.

My opinion is that the Army is probably better off without this individual. If you cannot sort your personal admin out on a Training area in Wales then you're not going to have a hope in getting it sorted in an operational theatre which puts you and ultimately your oppo's in the Sh1T.

A good bit of info on NFCI's

http://www.wmi.net.au/wmi/Uploads/FAI/20050513_immersion foot.pdf

 

[leon-1]

I went through training in 1986, they didn't have pro-boots then. Infact they didn't have half the kit that they are issued with nowadays.

I had my final exercise on Catterick training area, we had boots combat high and the temperature plummeted to -26 on one occasion. Our sleeping bags were the normal old 58 pattern bag, so not designed for that temperature range.

We marched through snow and ice, stood in trenches that filled with water and had ice form on them, all in all it was pretty nasty, but not a single one of us came down with a non freezing cold injury.

The husbandry of both kit and maintenance of strict hygiene standards were probably the thing that got us through. I also did the mountain and arctic warfare cadre before the pro-boot was issued (I actually trialled the pro-boot) and spent 4 and a half months on South Georgia (800 miles south east of the falklands and just within the Antarctic Circle).

I can honestly say that the pro-boot is a good boot, but it would not have prevented him from getting non freezing cold injuries, if anything if it was due to wet as well as cold there is a chance that he would have been worse off as the boot would never have gotten a chance to dry and would have kept water (that has potential to freeze) locked next to the foot in the boots lining itself.

The infantry used to get pro-boots issued as standard, if this is also the case of the RA then it will have been his choice to leave the pro-boot behind.

6 months pay is all he deserves, sueing the military for your own poor administration is a bit OTT.

 

[m.durston]

Your claim to TA service is irrelevant, it has no relevance to the case in discussion.

its not a claim its fact! i'm beginning to think that sapper1 was right about you being a wind up merchant, but everyone is entitled to voice an opinion and i'm not going to throw my teddy in the corner because i dont like it.
i did ask for opinions in the original post so thankyou to everyone that has contributed.

oh and boops heres two pics of me while i was in the 'toy army' lol
i'm second from right, remembrance sunday 2003

me holding L85a1 otterburn 2004

 

[sapper1]

One thing that really annoys me is people who think the TA aren't proper soldiers.There are many TA soldiers out in Afganistan now,also there are TA soldiers in the falklands.In fact wherever the army goes ,the TA go with them.The TA do the same work and get the same pay and so deserve the same recogniyion.
Out of interest can anyone name the only regular army unit that was formed from a TA unit after it was realised how good they were and that the regular army had nothing like it?

 

[BOD]

Out of interest can anyone name the only regular army unit that was formed from a TA unit after it was realised how good they were and that the regular army had nothing like it?

Yes we can mate and the modern version saw its genesis in the Malayan Scouts

 

[leon-1]

One thing that really annoys me is people who think the TA aren't proper soldiers.There are many TA soldiers out in Afganistan now,also there are TA soldiers in the falklands.In fact wherever the army goes ,the TA go with them.The TA do the same work and get the same pay and so deserve the same recogniyion.
Out of interest can anyone name the only regular army unit that was formed from a TA unit after it was realised how good they were and that the regular army had nothing like it?

I know a lot of guys who serve from TA units and served with many who went from an S type engagement to regular after their time was up so have respect for a lot of them. There are a few people here who will know the answer to your question, but it's not relevant to the thread. I am not getting at you, I am trying to get things back on track.

Is that the L118 (a bit rusty on my recognition), PM me the answer as I liked the thread and I would like it to stay on track.

 

[tobes01]

Keeping us on track then...

My knee injuries were on a cross-posting to the French army when I fell out of a window on an urban assault course. I'd had no training in the techniques we were using, and there was no safety provision at all - no lines, no sandpits etc. There was certainly never talk of a medical discharge, since I wasn't bleeding (we've all met that type of MO - "you're not bleeding so take a fistful of ibuprofen and get out of my surgery"). Nor did it occur to me to sue - that's something that's emerged in the past 10 years. I suspect our numpty's six months' paid leave are to try to stop him from suing.

It's also worth bearing in mind that sh*t happens in training. I once came down with severe hypothermia on a training exercise in Norfolk. I was put down on FRP sentry at early evening in February with no opportunity to collect a jumper or waterproofs. They then forgot about us, I was unconscious when relieved at 6am. Sue for that? Why? Sh*t happens, if you can't deal with that then you shouldn't be there in the first place.

That experience is the only thing I learned in the army that I've carried through to bushcraft - no matter how cold, wet or hungry I am, I know that it's nowhere near as bad as I've had before. Wife and kiddies were huddled in the car on the first evening at the Moot whilst I set up camp in the dark and rain, and couldn't understand why I wasn't at all bothered about the weather. But then, nobody was shouting at me, shooting at me or chucking CS gas about, and there was the promise of a brew at the end, so what's to worry about?

Tobes

 

[demographic]

Suppose it just stops him being sent out to a pointless war started by politicians over non existent weapons of mass destruction anyway.

In those circumstances I can't say I feel like I can take sides as its all a bit feckless.

 

[stonyman]

Self Inflicted Injury, I don't see that he has a leg to stand on, (no pun intended)

 

[John Fenna]

Suppose it just stops him being sent out to a pointless war started by politicians over non existent weapons of mass destruction anyway.
.

That is the job description he bought into...he must have known what he was doing before he signed on the dotted line ..... even if we are only fighting for oil, a soldier is a soldier and both his country and his mates depend on him.....

 

[deenewcastle]

Of course, some of this could just be bravado No matter how unhappy this guy appears to have been whilst serving, it's still an act of shame to be discharged from the Services. I served from 1976 to '98, and carried out training long before any of the new fangled kit was even designed, let alone issued, so I do know personally what it was like to work with kit which wasn't exactly the best available to expeditions. That said, most of the kit did what it said on the tin, and the way you as an individual looked after yourself and your kit was often more important that the quality of the kit alone. I don't think compensation was even mentioned whilst I served except for the gravest of injuries, and I sustained several in my time which I was not compensated for, although I suspect the shame of claiming would have stopped me even if it had been available. Hopefully this lad will reconsider, and find a more suitable way to earn a living in future. Maybe even decide to use some of the skills that even he must have learned and find his way into bushcraft

 

[Dingus Magee]

Short answer - yes!
Self inflicted wound - the Army should sue him for wasting their time and money in training him!
This "sue them" mind set is the worst thing that we ever imported from the USA....

Once again, John, you've put it more concisely than I ever could...I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly; this 'compensation culture' that has snuck across the Atlantic has given everyone the wrong message...ie. that they do not have to be responsible for their own actions, especially if there is some other poor b*gg*r that can cop the blame My friend runs a riding school and recently had someone attempt to claim for a new hairdo after falling off of one of her horses in the school!

 

[m.durston]

[My friend runs a riding school and recently had someone attempt to claim for a new hairdo after falling off of one of her horses in the school! [/QUOTE]

LMFAO!!! now that is funny.

 

[phaserrifle]

quite possibly yes, it is immoral.
if the corporals advice was simply "look after your feet" and nothing more, then he might be right to bring a case as just saying "look after your feet" is inadequate advice. as taking care of your feet is not a simple process, especialy for someone who hasn't the first clue how.
as I strongly suspect he was given more advice on how he should go about looking after his feet, or directed to a suitable resource to find such information, then he shouldn't even be able to bring a case, the MOD has discharged its responsibilty, he has failed to follow thier advice.