Rich Hall and American Indians

[Tengu]

Well, I have heard in this land of Hind there are `real` Philosophers...

(Lets not think of Alexanders encounter with the holy men.)

 

[Robson Valley]

Sit down and have a really good read about the "60's Scoop".
Then the history of the potlach.
Then, read the Canadian Government's admission of "cultural genocide."
Read the outcomes of the Canadian residential school system.
Read the ongoing tragedy of the "Highway of Tears."

Philosophers need 5 or 6 bottles of wine to get thought this one.

 

[boatman]

OK I am a cynic but I simply do not believe all those wise words from assorted figures of differing ethnicity. Maybe said in retrospect but did the person trading beaver skins for manufactured good ever really say "When the last tree is cut down etc...". As for what a warrior isn't. total rubbish. Rubbish because like all societies the young and hot-blooded formed the majority of warrior bands, vying for prestige and celebrity status.

 

[boatman]

Incidentally, have a look at the different levels of warfare as outlined by John Keegan in his History of the same. Where were Native American conflicts on that spectrum of conflict? had they gone beyond village raiding where anybody, young, old, male, female was fair game? Moved onto territorial acquisition and organised forces? And in this where is the noble warrior concerned only with caring for his own?

 

[Robson Valley]

The Haida traded and raided (for slaves) from their home on Haida Gwaii to as far south as Oregon.
Long way to paddle a 40-60' cedar boat and get home. Reading the records from Franz Boas will help.

 

[santaman2000]

Incidentally, have a look at the different levels of warfare as outlined by John Keegan in his History of the same. Where were Native American conflicts on that spectrum of conflict? had they gone beyond village raiding where anybody, young, old, male, female was fair game? Moved onto territorial acquisition and organised forces? And in this where is the noble warrior concerned only with caring for his own?

In North America? The Mayan and the Aztec empires come to mind, with the Toltecs before them. If memory serves, at one point during Europe's dark Ages the Mayan city of Chichen Itza had a larger population than any European city of the time. In South America? The Incas had an established empire. Architecture of all three comparable to ancient Egypt but without the aid of the wheel or metal tools/weapons, and in the case of the Incas, without a written language.

 

[boatman]

Indeed, they had moved on in terms of warfare but, in philosophy?

 

[Robson Valley]

You'd have to ask them. Consider how they have been mistreated ever since European contact.
There's no productive dialogue between the First Nations and the European-derived community to this day.
It's a noble idea but the trust isn't there. It is on a personal level but that doesn't accomplish much.

 

[boatman]

Cannot ask the Aztec or Mayan empires anything.

 

[boatman]

Have a look at The land of Lettice Sweetapple by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell for an idea how people living a hunter-gather life might have been treated by incoming farmers and herders. Gives the idea that nothing has changed in eight (?) thousand years when different ways of life meet. Or The Inheritors by Willam Golding or H G Wells The Grisly Folk have the similar theme as treatments of the poor old Neanderthals.. The point is that it happened before. Nothing to celebrate but no reason for the agonising we see today and the pseudo-guilt feelings of the possible successors of those who did harm to any of the First nations.

 

[CLEM]

Have a look at The land of Lettice Sweetapple by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell for an idea how people living a hunter-gather life might have been treated by incoming farmers and herders. Gives the idea that nothing has changed in eight (?) thousand years when different ways of life meet. Or The Inheritors by Willam Golding or H G Wells The Grisly Folk have the similar theme as treatments of the poor old Neanderthals.. The point is that it happened before. Nothing to celebrate but no reason for the agonising we see today and the pseudo-guilt feelings of the possible successors of those who did harm to any of the First nations.

Nailed squarely there I'd say Mr Boatman.

 

[Toddy]

"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". J.P.Hartley, iirc.

M

 

[Robson Valley]

". . . . those who did harm to any of the First Nations." You're making that sound like a thing of the past.
Not true. The harm is ongoing. Smallpox has been replaced by so many other things.
The people who can fix it are happy to fight about it.

 

[Toddy]

We're not disagreeing, but we do take objection to being made to feel responsible for the actions of our ancestors.

To quote a history professor, "Our certain past, was their very uncertain future". We try to learn and improve on things, but truthfully, of all the ethnicities in the UK, we don't have many Native Americans…..there are a great many in the Commonwealth though
In someways they are incredibly fortunate to have retained so much knowledge from, and a firm connection to the beliefs and customs of their ancestors….mostly ours have been in such flux from the Roman invasions onwards that our roots are fragmented and shattered. The Industrial Revolution and the concomitant change in the population bias from rural to urban only added to that.
Europe is, and has been, no idyll. Constantly riven with wars, disputes, invasions. Internectine strife, territorial disputes, religious and political genocides. Add in profit and it's a devil's potion of ills.

Humanity is not a peaceful animal

We honestly, and in heart and mind hope that it becomes peaceful, genuinely caring and respectful of others. We're not there yet though.

I have a lot of regard for those who bear witness, who stand up and say, "This is not right", and, "There must be something we can do to make it better"….and then get off their backsides and encourage others to help.

M

 

[santaman2000]

Have a look at The land of Lettice Sweetapple by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell for an idea how people living a hunter-gather life might have been treated by incoming farmers and herders. Gives the idea that nothing has changed in eight (?) thousand years when different ways of life meet.......

And where does this idea come from that they were all, or even most, hunter-gatherers? The most advanced empires such as the Incas had elaborate terraces to farm the Andes. Here in the American southeast the Choctaw were farmers and traders. The Wampanoag in the northeast taught the incoming colonists how to farm. Native Americans domesticated what's quite possibly the oldest domesticated plant in the world, maize. Indeed few nations were hunter gatherer compared to those that were famer/trader/herdsmen.

 

[boatman]

At some point they were all hunter gatherers. Are you saying there would have been no conflict between those creating a settled farming life and those practicing their ancestral way of life, even before Europeans arrived?

 

[Adze]

We're not disagreeing, but we do take objection to being made to feel responsible for the actions of our ancestors.

Much like blaming John Walker, the inventor of the friction match, for all arson committed since said invention.

In fact, none of my direct ancestors had anything to do with the colonization of the Americas. None of them influenced government policy of the United States or its agents, by far the greatest aggressor of the indigenous peoples of the North Americas both by deed and policy. We vaguely share a skin colour, but claiming that, somehow, I share collectively in their transgressions is like blaming a Vietnamese for the atrocities of the Imperial Japanese Army.

 

[santaman2000]

Much like blaming John Walker, the inventor of the friction match, for all arson committed since said invention.

In fact, none of my direct ancestors had anything to do with the colonization of the Americas. None of them influenced government policy of the United States or its agents, by far the greatest aggressor of the indigenous peoples of the North Americas both by deed and policy.......

No. That would be the Conquistadors.

 

[santaman2000]

At some point they were all hunter gatherers. Are you saying there would have been no conflict between those creating a settled farming life and those practicing their ancestral way of life, even before Europeans arrived?

Not at all. Rather your earlier post inferred that they were all still hunter gatherers when Columbus landed. I agree that even in the pre-Columbiam era they were at war often and engaging in practices that would be considered barbaric today. I've said as much in earlier posts.

 

[Adze]

No. That would be the Conquistadors.

Only by certain metrics and given that according to more than a few sources the active discrimination persists to this day in much more enlightened times I'd say you're very wrong unless you're reducing the genocide to a mere headcount.

Besides, it makes little difference to the point I was making as none of my ancestors were Spanish either...