Rich Hall and American Indians

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Tansi/wadji

The land where they take oil from the ground in in southern Manitoba, a long ways south west.

A lot of interesting stuff there. By the way I'm not aware of Liyiyuu having had war against you moniyaw. Like white people what you call Crees are many 'groups', who consider themselves as different as English from tghe Welsh (no offence at the Scotts either). We haven't faught war against anyone, maybe the odd dispute but nothing big.

But we have suffered and still suffer injustice. I aint going to say whether it is deliberate or just plain ignorance on those that put themselves in power. Which reminds me. None of us who lived on the reservations in Canada or benfited from treaty rights, were not allowed to vote in Canada until 1960! Yes 1960! Unless we gave up the rights we'd been given before in other treaties that were made with us for 'our' benefit. Such as the one our grandparents made to ensure we could still hunt the way we'd always done. Told if we agreed to this treaty we'd be able to hunt as we'd always done and the government would look after the game so we could hunt for ever.- which grandfather thought odd as we'd managed well enough doing that ourselves. After signing the treaty the government started to restrict hunting for 'conservation' reasons.. Grandfather was right to think the treaty odd. But as most of us lived by hunting/trapping we had no alternative to accept the treaty.

Many 1st nations don't speak their own language any more.

Easy to explain I hope. All; kids must go to school. Most small villages in Skats, Manitoba, NWT have school for young. But teacher maybe from USA or Canada. Only speak english and french. So kids learn English to have schooling. Some of course are from Liyiuuschii, 'our land' with no english and slow to learn and progress. But still the language at home is ours. Then when older they go to state school. There are none in the north and all the teenagers are sent to the big towns & Cities. Mine went to Edmonton. A two hour flight from our nearest village (Ft Smith NWT), or a ten hour drive over dirt road and almost impossible when wet. So now they live in moniyaw's(white people) land with only English to speak. Then on school holidays maybe they come home, but now their English is good and they are forgetting our tongue. You only have to repeat this process two generations and it is easier if everyone speaks English. Old language gone.

In our nearest village of 2000 people I only know of one moniyaw who speaks our language. He's the priest. No one else. If we wish to speak with store keeper we must speak English. No one even says hello in our tongue!!

My grandfather and father spoke many languages including French, Eastern Cree, Beaver, Carrier, Dog rib because there was no english language until schools came. I speak what is called woods cree, english and two other native languages.

Now in the village I know of only one or two kids who can speak our language. And very few under the age of 50. Only the old people can speak our language anymore.

No one cares, and only in the NWT has our language any legal status even though Cree in all its forms is the most widespread and commonest language.

Some years ago Toronto city council boasted it could give you access to a speaker of over 60 languages - you know, greek, english, french chinese, viet, etc., etc., (toronto has many people from around the world). So a Cree tried and called the council. You know what happened don't you?
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
74
Cornwall
Get off your backsides. Sound advice Mary to anybody. Personal story, my Grandfather as a child for a time had no shoes and bullies would stamp on his feet. Among other things he played a leading part in the Civil Defence in Lambeth during the blitzes and became Mayor later when the Borough had to be rebuilt. And so on through his children and grandchildren. Never rich we have always stuck in and stuck to it. Nor unreasonable then to wonder why any of any ethnicity do not do the same instead of harking back. We might have been kings in Ireland but so what for the future?
 

tsitenha

Nomad
Dec 18, 2008
384
1
Kanata
Get off your backsides. Sound advice Mary to anybody. Personal story, my Grandfather as a child for a time had no shoes and bullies would stamp on his feet. Among other things he played a leading part in the Civil Defence in Lambeth during the blitzes and became Mayor later when the Borough had to be rebuilt. And so on through his children and grandchildren. Never rich we have always stuck in and stuck to it. Nor unreasonable then to wonder why any of any ethnicity do not do the same instead of harking back. We might have been kings in Ireland but so what for the future?

They were not allowed by law to be Mayor or anything else. No schools on rez, they were taken away to "residential schools" where abuse in all its forms existed and thrived. Residential schools had hidden burial plots to get rid of those that perished. Adults had to ask permission just to leave the rez. Voting was only added in more recent times, many of us went through the blitzes with you for your freedoms, when we came home ours was eliminated.
This was and is the expectation of life, women were raped and still are, (my mother was) by authority figures and others.
It's nice to know that others know our history better than us.
I came back to BCUK, I thought it would be OK. It's getting to political and I am to old and having a hard time with all this. Gone
Tony may kick me off so be it. To all fair minded people here keep on learning. Yo
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,804
1,026
64
Florida
Are you sure about that Joe? I've seen a story of German people seeking asylum in Canada in order to homeschool.

there's also this

http://treatyschool.org/the-school/

They sought asylum in the US but were denied. www.townhall.com › columnists › Todd Starnes In any case home schooling must be done within certain parameters here to be legal (I don't know, but I would presume the same is true in Canada) Those parameters would make it difficult, if not impossible, to get approved on the reservation.
 
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Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
36,257
2,239
S. Lanarkshire
I hate hearing of loss of languages, history, culture. Especially nowadays when we know they why and how and realise how great the loss really is to the descendants of the peoples involved. Individual tragedies and hardships build up and devastate families and peoples/tribes/clans.
I grew up knowing that using Scots in any formal situation would get me slapped or belted; corporal punishment was normal then. Teacher's proudly bought their new tawses when they graduated. Lochgelly in Fife supplied the very best…..what a thing to be proud of, something to deliberately hurt a child :sigh:
Gaelic speaking children in small communities are still ferried to main stream secondary schools through the week. It's supposed to be good for them to relate to the wider population and to have a much wider educational opportunity.
They do have lessons in Gaelic at school though, but there are almost none in Scots. That said, children are no longer punished just for saying, "Aye", instead of, "Yes".

I heard a good thing though, in this very modern world, and it's technology. Record everything. Film people using their language, using their skills, interacting with their world and their families, and post them up where others can see them and are encouraged to contribute too.

It's being done in Australia, among Aboriginal peoples seperated by incomers and their enormous farming blocks, among scattered families and tribes, and it's quietly building a resource that is accessible and reinforcing the confidence of elders as well as interesting the youth. Still not enough people doing it yet though, but I heard that it was happening in North America too. It just needs an awful lot more input. Camera phones, youtube, Facebook, et al, are pretty commonplace and easy to use. Make use of them. Keep in touch with family and with the wider world too; Use Your Words :D

Here, in the UK, where the now predominant English language arose, we have lost so many others. We know just how easily they are lost into the mists of time. Cornish is slowly being revived, it's among the last remnants of the Brithonic language of much of these isles from before the Anglo Saxon invasions, when the language connections to the continent shifted to the Germanic states rather than the Breton ones, but Gaelic and Welsh have thriving populations, and bi-lingual schooling.

If we can do it, so can you :) and why can't your own people train to be your children's teachers ? If their elders aren't confident then it's hard for youngsters to feel proud of their heritage. Surely in this day and age no one can refuse to train teachers from your cultures ?

I don't mean to offend any of you; I know that it's easy for me to sit here and type this, while the reality that you're living is very different.
I would like to encourage you not to be disconsolate or even accepting of the situation, it's not irredeemable, but it's going to take a really concerted effort.
One positive note though is that folks are talking about it, are aware of it, and generally minded to see what can be done to greatly improve matters.

Tsitenha ? you are someone I regard very highly. I'm genuinely sorry that this thread has offended you. I hope you don't leave the site; your conversation and opinions are valued.
It matters a very great deal that people like you and Joe are prepared to speak out, to correct assumptions that just don't bear out the reality of your certainty.

At the end of the day, it's the children growing up who are the future. If we can't care for them, can't educate them, can't see them as well founded and grounded as we possibly can, then the shame is on us, and that's regardless of nation, or people, or culture.

It's a big wide world out there, and most of us here are Islanders….we look outwards to see the world and for centuries our children have roamed it all. I honestly think that Continental peoples see the world a little differently, but that's a whole other discussion :)

M
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
8,773
1,718
McBride, BC
There are some here who strive to preserve culture and languages. Not enough of them, I think.
Support for Cree language and language instruction in western Canada is growing quickly.
Tyrone Tootoosis (Poundmaker) recorded thousands of hours of conversation with elders. He died last week.
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
74
Cornwall
As to the English language, there is evidence that it as indigenous as Brythonic in the East of England but its history is obscured by the Germanic overwhelming invasion myth. Is it so bad to equip children with the means to communicate with the majority of the population and be more fitted for employment etc. Corporal punishment is another matter as is forcible relocation of children and the other horrors perpetrated.

Incidentally Scots is probably a dialect member of the "English" group, pre-Roman. Ask yourself that if this is not so then when did the Southern Scots learn English and from whom? Only a small Anglian settlement in the area later superseded by French speaking Normans.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
36,257
2,239
S. Lanarkshire
I take the linguists at their word :D
They told me that Brythonic, related to the Catalan was the native tongue, and that became Welsh (and that ran right up into Dumfries and Galloway too) and Manx and Cornish, and most likely Pictish, certainly Cumbrian…..then there's the Gaelic….P Celtic or Q Celtic…. and Scots Gaelic has a grammar that is different enough from Irish that it's believed that though the vocabulary changed that the Pictish grammar structure was firmly embedded. Funnily enough though Scots is more related to the German languages in some ways, than the Norse ones, but then our major coastline trading routes were across to the other lowlands. French came lately and added great richness to the vocabulary that is still evident today.

I think to be fluent in at least one of the major world languages, and that does accept that there are more Chinese and Spanish speakers than English ones, is a crucial skill in this modern world.
English is the language of science, of the internet, of travel and of much diplomacy. That said, I was at a conference on the Continent and I frankly struggled with my schoolgirl French, good clear English, a little Gaelic and good Broad Scots. Most of the attendees spoke English, with heavy accents, but they all spoke German, and most also spoke Spanish and French.
I think it's too easy for us to be monoglot when English is the native tongue of much of these islands. We do our children a disservice by not developing multi language skills during that crucial period when their minds are wired to take them in.
(on that note I must have done sommat right because Son1 speaks, reads and writes, English, French, Japanese, Finnish, and is learning Mandarin….. his broad Scots is fairly fluent too. His bother manages good English and German with the understanding of the Scots but rarely uses it at all)

M
 

boatman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Feb 20, 2007
2,444
4
74
Cornwall
Nothing wrong with learning a language that interests as well as a "major" one. I want to learn what is called Primitive Irish but little is available and that mostly on Ogham stones. Study texts mostly in Old Irish.
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
54
Wiltshire
I hate hearing of loss of languages, history, culture. Especially nowadays when we know they why and how and realise how great the loss really is to the descendants of the peoples involved. Individual tragedies and hardships build up and devastate families and peoples/tribes/clans.
I grew up knowing that using Scots in any formal situation would get me slapped or belted; corporal punishment was normal then. Teacher's proudly bought their new tawses when they graduated. Lochgelly in Fife supplied the very best…..what a thing to be proud of, something to deliberately hurt a child :sigh:
Gaelic speaking children in small communities are still ferried to main stream secondary schools through the week. It's supposed to be good for them to relate to the wider population and to have a much wider educational opportunity.
They do have lessons in Gaelic at school though, but there are almost none in Scots. That said, children are no longer punished just for saying, "Aye", instead of, "Yes".

I heard a good thing though, in this very modern world, and it's technology. Record everything. Film people using their language, using their skills, interacting with their world and their families, and post them up where others can see them and are encouraged to contribute too.

It's being done in Australia, among Aboriginal peoples seperated by incomers and their enormous farming blocks, among scattered families and tribes, and it's quietly building a resource that is accessible and reinforcing the confidence of elders as well as interesting the youth. Still not enough people doing it yet though, but I heard that it was happening in North America too. It just needs an awful lot more input. Camera phones, youtube, Facebook, et al, are pretty commonplace and easy to use. Make use of them. Keep in touch with family and with the wider world too; Use Your Words :D

Here, in the UK, where the now predominant English language arose, we have lost so many others. We know just how easily they are lost into the mists of time. Cornish is slowly being revived, it's among the last remnants of the Brithonic language of much of these isles from before the Anglo Saxon invasions, when the language connections to the continent shifted to the Germanic states rather than the Breton ones, but Gaelic and Welsh have thriving populations, and bi-lingual schooling.

If we can do it, so can you :) and why can't your own people train to be your children's teachers ? If their elders aren't confident then it's hard for youngsters to feel proud of their heritage. Surely in this day and age no one can refuse to train teachers from your cultures ?

I don't mean to offend any of you; I know that it's easy for me to sit here and type this, while the reality that you're living is very different.
I would like to encourage you not to be disconsolate or even accepting of the situation, it's not irredeemable, but it's going to take a really concerted effort.
One positive note though is that folks are talking about it, are aware of it, and generally minded to see what can be done to greatly improve matters.

Tsitenha ? you are someone I regard very highly. I'm genuinely sorry that this thread has offended you. I hope you don't leave the site; your conversation and opinions are valued.
It matters a very great deal that people like you and Joe are prepared to speak out, to correct assumptions that just don't bear out the reality of your certainty.

At the end of the day, it's the children growing up who are the future. If we can't care for them, can't educate them, can't see them as well founded and grounded as we possibly can, then the shame is on us, and that's regardless of nation, or people, or culture.

It's a big wide world out there, and most of us here are Islanders….we look outwards to see the world and for centuries our children have roamed it all. I honestly think that Continental peoples see the world a little differently, but that's a whole other discussion :)

M
Toddy ,

I love your posts and since I've joined this forum , all your replies, comments and suggestions are always inspiring and educating.
That last post is no exception.

I wish you were my mum and that I lived just down the road...
I'd love to have a brew and a good old "put the world to right" by the campfire one day....
👍👍

PS- Are you adopting ?
and would you take on a 42 year old ? 😁
PS 2 - PS 1 is not even a joke...
 
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Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
54
Wiltshire
Kwekwe Tsitenha!
Tansi Joe !

I hope you visit BCUK again and don't let this thread put you off.
Personally I'm trying to learn more about Native people's and trying to learn some of the dialects.

I don't think anyone means to offend you , Joe or any of the first nation indigenous people.

The discussion is unfortunately a little close to political, yes but it doesn't have to be.

the real fascination for me is the cultural traditions and customs of the aboriginal/indigenous folk.

Their art , music , craft and skills are fascinating for me.
Beautiful in every way.

Your craft is exquisite as I finally received those pictures you sent.
Amazing , beautiful stuff and another PM will follow this post.

But in a bushcraft context , the indigenous skills are very very interesting indeed...
In all continents! ...and the knowledge some of the indigenous people have of their land and the plants and animals are fantastic and an inspiration for me.
That is where my admiration and great respect started.
And where the Bushcraft bug started for me...

I think all humans could learn a lot about themselves and the world around them , by just spending a bit of time with somebody like yourself or Joe Tahkahikew in the bush .
Learning.
Tracking , hunting or even just talking by the fire in the great outdoors.

Hope this thread hasn't offended or upset you or Joe , as I think it would be a great loss for BCUK if you didn't visit us again .


Nia:wen

Leshy
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
36,257
2,239
S. Lanarkshire
Well said :D

Away and give your own Mum a hug :D


Robson Valley ? I'm sorry to hear that Tyrone Tootoosis has gone; I really hope the legacy he leaves proves to be a truly sound foundation and memory for the people.

M
 
Are you sure about that Joe? I've seen a story of German people seeking asylum in Canada in order to homeschool.

there's also this

http://treatyschool.org/the-school/

Tansi Swallow

Like Santaman said. Many regs and for those of us who spend a lot of time in the bush hunting, its too difficult to do. So kids must go to school and learn the same 'history' you learn. I believe the subjects are just about the same as UK schools. They even teach us about Shakespeare & the romans!

Many of our children who graduate from college often don't see any future in returning to the northern forests. No jobs, no hope nor future for many of the young people who stay up here in the far north. Its easy for Boatman to sit on his backside criticising others. Not so easy if you have to sit in the same chair as those you criticise.

Anyways, I watched the Rich Hall programme and we mostly liked it.

I don't get offended easily people mean no harm.


E'kosi Kindana' skomilina' wa'wa

Joe
 

Leshy

Full Member
Jun 14, 2016
2,394
54
Wiltshire
Tansi Joe.

I agree that some of the subjects taught in our schools are questionably any use at all...

Some totally useless in my opinion , but that's just my opinion though.

I think in some areas (like yours for instance) , language and cultural traditions should , not only be encouraged , but actually part of the schools curriculum .

Especially in places where the cultural values, crafts, traditions and languages are in danger of disappearing completely , as is in some cases the Gaelic on this side of the pond , The Gallego in the Iberic peninsula and the many variations of Alonquois languages in your neck of the woods , to mention just a few...

It seems Cree is seeing a healthy revival at the moment, and there are plenty of resources online (even though I couldn't find one that would translate your sentence from the last post 😏) but I digress...

The cultural and education departments should emphasise on the need to revive and maintain a healthy number of youngsters carrying these traditions through and I think that with the help of the elders and the parents of the kids , this is possible and achievable.

I hope that at least the music , craft and bush skills are still being used and passed onto some of the youngsters, despite all the many challenges faced by the willing tutors and the unwillingness of the kids, that if they're anything like the ones over here, much prefer to watch TV, play computers and chat to friends online.
I hope that changes , and somehow , that at least some of those kids that finish college , look and actually see how beautiful a future they could make , from returning to the northern forests and learning from their elders.

If I was a rich man I would try and pay my way , to spend some time in the Northern forests with someone like yourself, learning to track, fishing , hunting, paddling and foraging ...
...
It would probably take many years but I would still happily do it... 😏
 
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