thanks for the effort sparrowhawk thats nice n neat. however the first image i put up is just a textured version of the original which is a basic outline like that one you drew. and as iv said previously its too detailed to fit onto a 2 pence peice. i will carve it into large projects but for small things i need a small basic mark that wont detract from the original work. i think Ruud is on the right track as that hoof with the letters can be made very small and still keep its detail