LOL. Yeah; but technically that one's not a gun law. Rather it's a hunting law. Maybe even MORE foolish and illogical.
Of course by the same token, you're not allowed to hunt deer with shotguns. Is that any more logical?
Would you buy this gun?
- Thread starter Mesquite
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LOL. Yeah; but technically that one's not a gun law. Rather it's a hunting law. Maybe even MORE foolish and illogical.
Of course by the same token, you're not allowed to hunt deer with shotguns. Is that any more logical?
The reason for a pump action shotgun is simply the mode of use in my case. I arrive at fishing spot with an unloaded gun. I cycle the EMPTY action, gun pointed up and make sure the action locks. I then pull the action release to make sure it works and cycle the pump again - then I pull the trigger. The hope is that I hear the click of a dry fire which shows the action has locked and works. Then the magazine is loaded. So the gun is carried empty chamber, but with action unlocked and safety off. The gun is incredibly fast to bring into action from a variety of positions because of its light weight, and good for repeat shots despite its light weight. For me, having to reach for a cocking handle on the action would slow me down, but other than that I figure a semi would work fine if a person practised enough with one, and maintained it well. For most encounters with bears just your confidence in what you are holding ends the encounter because they pick up fast by smell exactly how you are feeling.
To be honest, I don't know anybody who carries a shotgun in the woods with the chamber empty. On the rack in a patrol car, yes. In the woods, no.
When it comes to semi vs pump in a shotgun it depends upon preference, use, cost, etc.
For an example on cost, here, locally (Port Aransas, Texas) a reliable but not so fancy pump shotgun is $190 new, $205 when you include sales tax (about £136). For that price I can go down right now to Academy (large sporting goods store) in Corpus Christi and get a Mossberg Maverick 88 (a variant of the Mossberg 500) or an H&R Pardner Pump (870 near-clone made by Norinco). Both are actually quite good shotguns, very tough and reliable.
Personally, for most things I like a pump for general use in that it gives me full control over it's operation. I can use a wide variety of ammo and I can save my empties easier. I can get it submerged and then drain the weapon easier without worry about the gas system. I can use it like a single shot with oddball ammo and sub-caliber adapters, etc. Since it's manually cycled, I can run almost any ammo through a pump, even blackpowder loads.
An additional advantage is if Davy Jones decides to borrow it and it winds up at the bottom of the bay or the ocean, I'm only out $200 and keeping a spare around is only another $200. The same goes for customs officials who take a fancy to the weapon. The salt water environment is rough on weapons and a pump is simpler and easier to maintain.
Semis have their advantages. When bird hunting with multiple targets I can down more than one bird easier with a semi. The recoil is less with a semi also.
Semis can be ammo sensitive sometimes. One example of this happening is when the US Army initially switched over to the Benelli, which is a semi known for being very reliable. Army units that were heading to Iraq at the last minute had to swap out the Benelli semis for Mossberg pumps. The reason was that the Benelli wasn't cycling the breaching round the US Army was using and they hadn't had time to develop a new load that worked better and get it produced in quantity.
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Oh I get the advantages of pumps, my obervation was purely around a short range defensive purpose...if concerned about, for example, bears, I would imagine that one would carry it in condition 1? My Benelli is certainly faster in semi auto (inertia operated...no gas system to fail). Either way though, totally agree that practice and familiarity are key...that's what sticks when stress makes you fumble fingered.
On the subject of bears, it depends. When you are packing around a gun in the deep woods like that, or just carrying it around all of the time no matter what, safety with the weapon is a major concern. This is especially true when you have multiple people in close proximity similarly armed. If you are in and out of a vehicle a lot, having an empty chamber on a pump shotgun is a good idea. If a bear shows up you most probably will have time to cycle the weapon.
There is a difference that should be noted between carrying a shotgun around all of the time for defense against dangerous game like bears vs actively hunting. When you are hunting you are focused on the game and the weapon, and you typically have a loaded chamber. When you are carrying a pump shotgun as a just in case measure, you are focused on other things, not the weapon all of the time. The weapon is just there as a matter of course. So, safety is an issue. With a pump or semi you can keep it with an empty chamber but fully loaded.
Slug loads can vary quite a bit, and not all semis cycle all slugs well. The weapon should also cycle bear bombs (a 12ga noise maker) well.
Most of the 12ga weapons I've seen carried in bear country are pumps. They are reliable, especially in the cold, and they can take a beating. They are light, simple, and handy. They are also a fraction of the cost of a Benelli semi. My personal opinion is if you are going to stake your life on a semi in rough conditions, you should use a Benelli or stay with a pump. The only other semi I might consider under such conditions is a Mossberg 930, maybe. Over here, a brand new Mossberg M88 is $200, and a used Benelli semi tends to fetch about $900 to $1100 or more these days.
There is a difference that should be noted between carrying a shotgun around all of the time for defense against dangerous game like bears vs actively hunting. When you are hunting you are focused on the game and the weapon, and you typically have a loaded chamber. When you are carrying a pump shotgun as a just in case measure, you are focused on other things, not the weapon all of the time. The weapon is just there as a matter of course. So, safety is an issue. With a pump or semi you can keep it with an empty chamber but fully loaded.
Slug loads can vary quite a bit, and not all semis cycle all slugs well. The weapon should also cycle bear bombs (a 12ga noise maker) well.
Most of the 12ga weapons I've seen carried in bear country are pumps. They are reliable, especially in the cold, and they can take a beating. They are light, simple, and handy. They are also a fraction of the cost of a Benelli semi. My personal opinion is if you are going to stake your life on a semi in rough conditions, you should use a Benelli or stay with a pump. The only other semi I might consider under such conditions is a Mossberg 930, maybe. Over here, a brand new Mossberg M88 is $200, and a used Benelli semi tends to fetch about $900 to $1100 or more these days.
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IANAE but I believe nearly all deer hunting in the UK is done over open ground. So shots are from quite a distance, not so practical for shotguns.
Some is done in Woodland and from high seats in England. I can only assume its a perception of accuracy that prevents the use of appropriate shotgun loads (LG or slug). I think "shotgun only" is daft too.
Exactly.
I still don't get it. All the people in close proximity in that situation are similarly armed; just like you said. They all also have one in the chamber. I don't carry my Semi-auto handgun with an empty chamber either, nor a modern revolver with an empty chamber.
It's simply good safety practice in an armed group, and it's good safety practice as a lone individual. Why do you assume everyone else in a group has a round in the chamber?
A long arm that is being carried just as a matter of course in case it might be needed isn't the focus of the attention of the carrier. Keeping a round out of the chamber of a magazine fed weapon and not totally relying upon a mere mechanical safety is simply smart. Totally relying upon a mechanical safety on a shotgun for routine carry, or any longarm is risky and shouldn't be done except when ones focus is on using the weapon.
Unless you are purposely hunting or in a war zone, everyone in a group having a round in the chamber of shotguns they are carrying in the off chance they need them for protection is inviting an accident to happen. The possibility of the wrong thing happening goes up exponentially with the number of people in your group having chambered weapons. It takes a fraction of a second to chamber a magazine fed weapon if needed.
If you are by yourself, that is one thing, any screwups are on you and your odds of accidentally shooting another person is low. However, several people together, good sense says to chamber only when you need to. The safest weapon is one that isn't chambered.
A handgun is can be a different issue. It's usually holstered and kept close about the body, not handled or slung about. However, note that the Israelis train to carry an unchambered handgun.
Your shotgun is carried loaded I'm betting because you are out hunting. That, like I said is a different issue and your focus is on using the weapon.
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[QUOTETo be honest, I don't know anybody who carries a shotgun in the woods with the chamber empty. On the rack in a patrol car, yes. In the woods, no.][/QUOTE]
Here the terrain is very difficult and I usually wear spiked logging boots for muddy trails, slimy rocky beaches and wading since footing is uncertain. when fly fishing, I'm also carrying a long rod while doing a lot of walking. All in all it's far safer to carry with an empty chamber. I also think that the clatter of loading is very effective - together with moving on the bear, to avoid the necessity of shooting, so I haven't had the need to actually shoot one in many years. And we have a very high density of bears on the coast and so many encounters. I tend to be very aware and that helps.
When hunting I'd have an empty chamber until I moved into brush, but here we have so many bears that hunting them isn't opportunistic. You choose a good one then move in on it with loaded chamber, and shoot from a good position.
Processing a moose and hauling out quarters through dense bush is the time for loaded chambers, incredible caution, and a real gun because both griz and blacks here are territorial and so think that any fresh meat belongs to them. It's a huge contrast to just the shooting of the moose from high ground. I have one friend who was going through the bush tagging a trail guided by his friend who stayed on the high ground to point him to the dropped moose (tough to find in cover). The guy on the high ground suddenly started shooting into the air so he went back thinking of an accident. Then they watched the griz dragging the moose back to his feeding spot. It's amazing how fast bears can move in on a blood smell.
Going in after a wounded bear involves a lot of strategy. I was lucky that my first was dead by the time we got to him, and I got to learn lots about ambushes from the blood trail.
I've just tried to explain my strategies gained from my experience, which may not work well in other places, for other people - or for me one day..
Here the terrain is very difficult and I usually wear spiked logging boots for muddy trails, slimy rocky beaches and wading since footing is uncertain. when fly fishing, I'm also carrying a long rod while doing a lot of walking. All in all it's far safer to carry with an empty chamber. I also think that the clatter of loading is very effective - together with moving on the bear, to avoid the necessity of shooting, so I haven't had the need to actually shoot one in many years. And we have a very high density of bears on the coast and so many encounters. I tend to be very aware and that helps.
When hunting I'd have an empty chamber until I moved into brush, but here we have so many bears that hunting them isn't opportunistic. You choose a good one then move in on it with loaded chamber, and shoot from a good position.
Processing a moose and hauling out quarters through dense bush is the time for loaded chambers, incredible caution, and a real gun because both griz and blacks here are territorial and so think that any fresh meat belongs to them. It's a huge contrast to just the shooting of the moose from high ground. I have one friend who was going through the bush tagging a trail guided by his friend who stayed on the high ground to point him to the dropped moose (tough to find in cover). The guy on the high ground suddenly started shooting into the air so he went back thinking of an accident. Then they watched the griz dragging the moose back to his feeding spot. It's amazing how fast bears can move in on a blood smell.
Going in after a wounded bear involves a lot of strategy. I was lucky that my first was dead by the time we got to him, and I got to learn lots about ambushes from the blood trail.
I've just tried to explain my strategies gained from my experience, which may not work well in other places, for other people - or for me one day..
The "safest" one is the one locked up unloaded somewhere else. Neither one is especially useful in a hurry though.
Everybody used to train that way back when the semi-auto handguns were single action. Then about 30 years ago (in the US, longer ago in some of the world, more recently in other parts) the double action semi-auto started taking over. Now nearly nobody trains that way; it defeats the whole purpose of having a DA semi-auto. We quit training that way in 1984 (when the M9 became standard issue) Current military training for DA semi-auto handguns is: one in the chamber, hammer down, and safety off. Civilian cop training is: one in the chamber, end of training (most cop issue DA semi-autos don't have a manual safety or an exposed hammer to worry about anyway)
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Yeah I can see this point of view. Sorta anyway; do you really think racking the slide has a psychological effect on the bears though?
Our bears aren't especially aggressive here so they're not my main concern; I do have that wariness about gators though.
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Out of town where metallic noises aren't normal, it sure puts their attention on a person who is acting agressively, so it seems to work well. With people who stand quietly too many times the bear moves in to check them out and ends up getting shot when they get scared, even though its intentions may have been innocent curiousity.
But bears are territorial and some get pushed into areas with lots of noise. We had one black at our 200M pistol range which stood at the end of the right bank of pigs while I was dropping targets on the left bank with a supermag moving toward it. Luckily I noticed too many targets (shooting from creedmoor) before any bullet spatter could hit it. Javelina are at 100 metres so why neither the sound of the gun nor the huge clang of the bullets knocking down targets bothered it, puzzles me still. But those were the days when bears habituated to people and noise were trapped in town and moved to places where they might make a living in territory that normal bears wouldn't want. We've had bears move onto the range while 4 shooters, shooting everything up to 30-30 pistol were dropping targets.
When my grandson was 8 he came to stay with me for a few weeks of shooting and salmon fishing. We were out at the (then terribly brushed in) rifle range with me focusing on him being safe while shooting my old Marlin .22, and getting some video, when a young griz moved out from the left despite the noise. That bear too was occupying the noisiest and least desirable territory - and so was habituated to noise, and at that point my grandson was just interested in shooting lots. The bear was fine about things since I noticed him before any problems arose, but the video didn't go down too well with my son.
Now bears in town are trapped and shot, so out of town the rest mostly act normal.
Mostly both grizzly and blacks here are well behaved and encounters are just due to large numbers moving down on to the same streams we are trying to fish, moving into town, or when they drop in for a snack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjrI5ELkj3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhydrS8LUUI
Any Youtube search on Kitimat bears will find lots of close ups.
If a bear is wounded from a recent territory fight, is sitting on a pile of meat or gutpile, or defending young then everything changes. Same thing if you run from a black as my ex-wife found out when she walked down to a creek ahead of me. That ended fast when she ran past me and I didn't run - but even then I didn't need to shoot the bear which quickly changed its mind about things. Bears really pick up on aggression.
In Hyder there were and probably still are bear platforms where you walk by bears and stand on a platform for better pics. The bears could easily snag any tourist, but seem tame. Well one griz did eat a camper a few years ago in Stewart just down the road... Here things in normal circumstances are not as casual but with few attacks given the sheer numbers. In the Bella Coola valley the grizzly bears are highly aggressive. A guy named Timothy Treadwell used to pet bears at Katmai - my guess is that a new bear moved in which didn't like petting so it ate him and his girlfriend. Same sort of thing would account for the bear in Stewart killing the camper.
I wasn't talking about everyone, I was talking about the Israelis. I'm well aware of how it's currently done in the USA. The Israelis still train like that because they use a wide variety of handguns, and they get along fine.
As for shotguns, what the conversation is actually about, if you are not actively hunting or in a combat situation, there is no need other than a psychological one to have a chambered longarm when you are routinely carrying one around the woods. Chambering a magazine fed longarm takes a fraction of a second.
'Knowing your group' is really a false sense of security in such a situation. Relying purely upon mechanical safeties all of the time, especially in a group, when longarms are routinely and casually carried like that is neither wise nor entirely safe. It only takes one accidental discharge to create a tragedy.
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That's as I suspected: They carry a wide variety of handguns, including obsolete single action ones. Thus the obsolete training.
