Winter Warmth.

[KIMBOKO]

It seems to me that the conventional wisdom is that the thicker the insulation layer the warmer you are, so you have a thicker sleeping bag for a colder environment. However it seems to me that furs and artifical furs and piles seem to give a degree of insulation greater than you would expect for the thickness of the layer. Has anybody else noticed or considered this and is there any explanation?.

 

[Toddy]

I've been thinking about that too, I freeze trying to get to sleep and I'd really like to cut down on all of the paraphenalia I carry.
I've just been given a sealskin and I can get more. I can also get wolf, bear, etc (all with certificates) but they're heavy.
Those faux fur throws that were so popular last year will be coming into the selloffs soon as the fashion changes, I've been wondering about one for underneath that could be wrapped over the top of me when I'm cold but thrown off when I'm too warm. I don't think I want to make bag from it 'cos I don't know how breathable it is yet. I think it's be better furry side towards me.....what do you think?
I know I can get really heavy thick stuff just now, it's pricey as it's intended to make very real looking fur coats. Can't think of an easy way to make it fire proof though, the real stuff won't flare up but I haven't tried with the fake.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[Nemisis]

I found this on google might help http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mus...-50DD-4F58-8DB6-5ECBFEF7C258/0/flameretar.pdf
Dave.

 

[capacious]

KIMBOKO: Natural materials are just, to put simply, better than any of the crap humans can invent. It has had millions of years to develop. Humans have only been around for 150,000 years, and have only been producing synthetic materials since after the industrial revolution. That is why natural materials are better. They do, however, tend to stop working properly when they are wet. Reindeer hair is by far the very best insulator, but the hairs tend to drop out if they are too warm (not surprising when you consider that they live in anything down to -50).

Toddy: Natural materials a generally more breathable than anything synthetic (even the 'mighty' goretex ). I know that the evenk herders in Siberia Have double layered clothing - one layer with the fur/hair facing inwards, and the other with the fur/hair facing outwards. This does two things: stops the cold getting in, and the heat getting out. It's quite clever really , but I would've thought this a bit over kill for our climate, so one layer is almost certainly enough (although someone better informed may disagree with me ), and you could have the fur facing inwards until you got to warm and then simply turn the skin over so the fur is facing outwards, and this would allow you to cool of a little.

I hope that helps,

Jake.

 

[scruff]

Toddy - I think if you use borax on your fake furs your gonna end up with white powder everywhere. I wouldn't suggest using it as it probably won't 'take' on the synthetic strands, only the backing (if your lucky) and the fire retardancy will be pretty much zero.

In my experience most fire retardant treatments are pretty useless, and not particulary durable. Better to use something that is inherently retardant instead (ie. natural furs).

FYI more info on borax here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borax

 

[KIMBOKO]

KIMBOKO: Natural materials are just, to put simply, better than any of the crap humans can invent. It has had millions of years to develop. Humans have only been around for 150,000 years, and have only been producing synthetic materials since after the industrial revolution. That is why natural materials are better. They do, however, tend to stop working properly when they are wet. Reindeer hair is by far the very best insulator, but the hairs tend to drop out if they are too warm (not surprising when you consider that they live in anything down to -50).

I think your opinion is similar to mine but I was trying to work out if anyone has come up with an explanation.

On the point of them not working when wet is not totally true as there are a lots of furry animals that although they get wet on the outside are totally dry on the inner layers. Toddy's sealskin for instance. Although I don't know if that property is carried on once cured or tanned.

I was wondering if the orientation of the fur makes its feel warmer by stopping all convection currents. Whereas with wadding or down there are small, open connected air pockets, allowing convection of heat. I just don't know.

I was thinking (and have for some time and still done nothing about it) of making a fur like cloak using a woolen pile similar to the Anglo Saxon cloth I've seen at Sutton Hoo. Or if not a cloak a sleeping type blanket/bag. I recently noticed that you can get or make an instrument to machine sew a looped pile onto a base cloth. This would save a lot of effort although not particularly traditional.

Just thoughts.

 

[scruff]

I was wondering if the orientation of the fur makes its feel warmer by stopping all convection currents. Whereas with wadding or down there are small, open connected air pockets, allowing convection of heat. I just don't know.

I was thinking (and have for some time and still done nothing about it) of making a fur like cloak using a woolen pile similar to the Anglo Saxon cloth I've seen at Sutton Hoo. Or if not a cloak a sleeping type blanket/bag. I recently noticed that you can get or make an instrument to machine sew a looped pile onto a base cloth. This would save a lot of effort although not particularly traditional.

Just thoughts.

I think seals maintain there heat from the masses of blubber rather than there fur particulaly as most of them shed there fluffyness (ahhh) as they mature.

I'm sure there is some science out there (I just shouldn't get distracted finding it as I'm at work) but I think (correct me if I'm wrong) fur acts to trap warmth/ reduce convective heat loss from the body. It obviously works a bit better on the animal as there is blood flow to the skin and therefore body heat carried with it, but your body will heat the same and trap a layer of heat in there.

I don't know whether its best to wear it inside or out....I've read somewhere whats best for what purpose but my memor fades there.

Perhaps though if you wear the fur on the inside then any extra heat cannot escape as easily and you'll get too hot....altho it does feel nicer on ur skin! (hmmm frollocks on sheepskni rugs.........ahem sorry )

 

[Toddy]

The tools that are used for Hooky rugs ought to work for this. I've got extra ones if you want to give it a try Kimboko. I think weight is going to be a problem with almost all of these ideas though.
When I camped out frequently my body temperature kind of regulated itself more effectively, maybe we just need to learn to live colder again....switch off the central heating

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[george]

You have to remember that fur is responsive to different conditions and only works the way it has evolved to while it is still on the animal!

If an animal starts to get cold then the fur will be fluffed up by the little erector pili ? in its skin - thats what goosebumps are for us. When it is fluffed up it will trap more air and insulate better.

If it is too warm the fur will lie flat as possible to reduce the amount of trapped air.


Obviously once the animal is dead then those abilities are lost and the fur will only ever trap whatever air is naturally held between the hairs.

In order to keep their fur water repellant many animals have a gland that secretes waterproofing oil that the animal will regularly spread through it's fur by grooming, others secrete oils through their skin. Again once you take the fur off the animal it will stop having it's waterproof qualities renewed and you will have to treat it as it wears off.

In the winter most fur bearing animals have developed a thick fluffy undercoat covered by longer coarser protective hairs on the outside (Dog owners know this well to their cost!)

Very few furs retain all of the very soft underfur when they are tanned and of course the quality of the fur depends amongst other things on the time of year the animal was killed.

Animal furs have developed over millions of years as capacious said, however they were developed to work on the animal when it is still alive and will never be as good once you take it off the animal.

I would argue against capacious' comment that we will never be able to invent anything that is as good as natural materials - well until you can show me an animal that has evolved to grow a fur that will keep working the way it's meant to once the animal is dead that is.


george

 

[KIMBOKO]

Thank you for your lesson in animal physiology, I was however really trying to find out a little about different insulation qualities.

Quote "However it seems to me that furs and artifical furs and piles seem to give a degree of insulation greater than you would expect for the thickness of the layer. Has anybody else noticed or considered this and is there any explanation?."

I think perhaps I was looking for evidence to support my making
"a fur like cloak using a woolen pile similar to the Anglo Saxon cloth I've seen at Sutton Hoo"
I know there would be a lot of work involved and I feel the need to justify the time and materials.

 

[george]

Hi Kimboko

Your welcome for the physiology lesson mate, anytime

I've been thinking through the question you ask about furs and piles apparent greater warmth and I wonder if it has anything to do with the "drape" of the material rather than the "loft".

With fur and pile if it's turned inwards then it kind of "form fits" to your body and cuts down on the movement of air over your skin, yet it doesnt feel clammy as sweat can still escape along the length of the fibre.

In terms of absolute insulation values I dont believe that they are actually more insulating than the equivalent artificial insulators (reindeer hair equates well to hollofill for example)but that they probably work in a different way to keep warm air loss down.

If you stuffed a duvet with reindeer hair I doubt it would be any better at insulating than hollofill and if you made an artificial fur skin out of hollofill I bet it would be almost as good as reindeer skins. (I say almost as good because obviously reindeer hair has other properties that help it to work in that situation that hollofill doesn't possess.)

Density of fur seems to account more for warmth rather than length of the individual hairs so I'm sure that a dense woolen pile would give a very good degree of warmth. The question would still remain about it's weight though as I would imagine that by the time you had made something dense and thick enough to be worthwhile, it would begin to be pretty heavy.

Just a thought.

George

 

[locum76]

a sheeps fleece seems to me to be one of the best insulators. the thick long fibres trap plenty of air and all the wax (lanolin) keeps it waterproof.

of course it can get a bit heavy when wet.

 

[pierre girard]

It seems to me that the conventional wisdom is that the thicker the insulation layer the warmer you are, so you have a thicker sleeping bag for a colder environment. However it seems to me that furs and artifical furs and piles seem to give a degree of insulation greater than you would expect for the thickness of the layer. Has anybody else noticed or considered this and is there any explanation?.

The only thing I've ever noticed sleeping with furs is - it's a good way to freeze your a$$ off.

PG