I'm agreeing with you.
I just meant the benefits are not only keeping the wind away. As you say, I think it's something that needs to be tested in the conditions they are designed to be used in.
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Why use a windshield - "A" level investigation help please!
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I'm agreeing with you.
I just meant the benefits are not only keeping the wind away. As you say, I think it's something that needs to be tested in the conditions they are designed to be used in.
....though I suppose you could design the thermal benefits to the cannister out of the study by testing the windshield on a stove that uses a remote cannister (assuming he is using a gas stove).
Shambling Shaman
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I'm agreeing with you.
I just meant the benefits are not only keeping the wind away.
Very true,, the point I was making in the 1st post was that in a class room and out in the field are WAY different, And now iv reread the posts Iv see an anomaly, we are all thinking that the wind shield is reflective, but a wind shield may be any thing that stops the wind from effecting the flam. I have in the past used my rucksack by no means reflective but affective. I think we all have foil shields mine is not a 360 but a 3/4 - so now were in to a whole new debate as to size and material of the wind shield.
oops
shambling shaman
No need to defend yourself from my comment, as there are lots of variables to this (more spring to mind every minute lol). It's just that I have been making stoves for a few years, and have already done similar tests on a wide variety of stoves. As per one of my posts, the addition of a high spec windshield can add 25% to a stoves efficiency (meths stoves, which also lose efficiency very quickly in the presence of wind) which is a large amount.
I have lots of windshields, and some are more efficient than others. Some are heavy and some are light, so it is only the last group that will offer quick trade off in respect of fuel weight V shield weight.
As per a previous post, the addition of a shield can also mean the difference between a stove run on butane working or not in cold weather. As an example from real life, I once tried to cook some food in the Forest of dean using a stove running on butane. I didn't have a wind shield or ground reflector, and as the weather was only 6 degrees C the stove would not boil the food. No amount of fuel/weight used would boil my food. If however, I had a windshield, then the top of the cylinder would have reached 20-30 degrees easily and the liquid fuel would have vapourised, thus my stove would have boiled my food. There was no wind to speak of, but the loss of flame to the air, rather than trapped heat working on the canister and flame being channeled to the side of my pot made all the difference. From my own experiments, not only does a wind shield make a difference indoors (no breeze), but the height of the windshield in relation to the pot also needs to be factored in.
Sadly, I do feel that a lot of tests will need to get a 'useful' (rather than purely academic) result, as the use of a lid and windshield varies by fuel type, with quite large differences.
Oh, off the top of my head a very light wind shield such as the aircraft repair tape one (I wish I could still get hold of that you lucky devil), will cancel out its weight in saved fuel in 9-10 boilings of 500ml. That is based on using a gas stove that uses 7g of fuel to boil the water, with an approx 12% saving of fuel per boil due the the effect of the wind shield, so feasible to achieve on a long weekend
Now:
And now iv reread the posts Iv see an anomaly, we are all thinking that the wind shield is reflective, but a wind shield may be any thing that stops the wind from effecting the flam. I have in the past used my rucksack by no means reflective but affective. I think we all have foil shields mine is not a 360 but a 3/4 - so now were in to a whole new debate as to size and material of the wind shield.
Your rucksack will only slow the wind hitting the flame/pot down (by a tiny amount) but will not heat (or rather contain) the surrounding air, which is where the benefit of commercial windshields kick in. In summer or warm temps a rucksack may offer very modest increase, but if the weather is cold, the the advantage of having the air around your pot/canister at 40 C rather than minus 25 with wind chill become very apparent lol
No need to defend yourself from my comment, as there are lots of variables to this (more spring to mind every minute lol). It's just that I have been making stoves for a few years, and have already done similar tests on a wide variety of stoves. As per one of my posts, the addition of a high spec windshield can add 25% to a stoves efficiency (meths stoves, which also lose efficiency very quickly in the presence of wind) which is a large amount.
I have lots of windshields, and some are more efficient than others. Some are heavy and some are light, so it is only the last group that will offer quick trade off in respect of fuel weight V shield weight.
As per a previous post, the addition of a shield can also mean the difference between a stove run on butane working or not in cold weather. As an example from real life, I once tried to cook some food in the Forest of dean using a stove running on butane. I didn't have a wind shield or ground reflector, and as the weather was only 6 degrees C the stove would not boil the food. No amount of fuel/weight used would boil my food. If however, I had a windshield, then the top of the cylinder would have reached 20-30 degrees easily and the liquid fuel would have vapourised, thus my stove would have boiled my food. There was no wind to speak of, but the loss of flame to the air, rather than trapped heat working on the canister and flame being channeled to the side of my pot made all the difference. From my own experiments, not only does a wind shield make a difference indoors (no breeze), but the height of the windshield in relation to the pot also needs to be factored in.
Sadly, I do feel that a lot of tests will need to get a 'useful' (rather than purely academic) result, as the use of a lid and windshield varies by fuel type, with quite large differences.
Oh, off the top of my head a very light wind shield such as the aircraft repair tape one (I wish I could still get hold of that you lucky devil), will cancel out its weight in saved fuel in 9-10 boilings of 500ml. That is based on using a gas stove that uses 7g of fuel to boil the water, with an approx 12% saving of fuel per boil due the the effect of the wind shield, so feasible to achieve on a long weekend
Now:
And now iv reread the posts Iv see an anomaly, we are all thinking that the wind shield is reflective, but a wind shield may be any thing that stops the wind from effecting the flam. I have in the past used my rucksack by no means reflective but affective. I think we all have foil shields mine is not a 360 but a 3/4 - so now were in to a whole new debate as to size and material of the wind shield.
Your rucksack will only slow the wind hitting the flame/pot down (by a tiny amount) but will not heat (or rather contain) the surrounding air, which is where the benefit of commercial windshields kick in. In summer or warm temps a rucksack may offer very modest increase, but if the weather is cold, the the advantage of having the air around your pot/canister at 40 C rather than minus 25 with wind chill become very apparent lol
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Shambling Shaman
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
shambling shaman
No need to defend yourself from my comment, as there are lots of variables to this (more spring to mind every minute lol). It's just that I have been making stoves for a few years, and have already done similar tests on a wide variety of stoves. As per one of my posts, the addition of a high spec windshield can add 25% to a stoves efficiency (meths stoves, which also lose efficiency very quickly in the presence of wind) which is a large amount.
I have lots of windshields, and some are more efficient than others. Some are heavy and some are light, so it is only the last group that will offer quick trade off in respect of fuel weight V shield weight.
As per a previous post, the addition of a shield can also mean the difference between a stove run on butane working or not in cold weather. As an example from real life, I once tried to cook some food in the Forest of dean using a stove running on butane. I didn't have a wind shield or ground reflector, and as the weather was only 6 degrees C the stove would not boil the food. No amount of fuel/weight used would boil my food. If however, I had a windshield, then the top of the cylinder would have reached 20-30 degrees easily and the liquid fuel would have vapourised, thus my stove would have boiled my food. There was no wind to speak of, but the loss of flame to the air, rather than trapped heat working on the canister and flame being channeled to the side of my pot made all the difference. From my own experiments, not only does a wind shield make a difference indoors (no breeze), but the height of the windshield in relation to the pot also needs to be factored in.
Sadly, I do feel that a lot of tests will need to get a 'useful' (rather than purely academic) result, as the use of a lid and windshield varies by fuel type, with quite large differences.
Oh, off the top of my head a very light wind shield such as the aircraft repair tape one (I wish I could still get hold of that you lucky devil), will cancel out its weight in saved fuel in 9-10 boilings of 500ml. That is based on using a gas stove that uses 7g of fuel to boil the water, with an approx 12% saving of fuel per boil due the the effect of the wind shield, so feasible to achieve on a long weekend
Iv not defend myself from your comment's Iv defending myself for my comments - I have done and been in lots of similar situations, but most likely wrong but would guess that a class room would not be an extreme enough environment (ambient air temp wise) to have any great bearing on the use of a windshield, Im shore that more than one of us has slept with are gas canister Full agree with you that there is a plethora of variables that would change test results.. That said looks like were all agreed that a lid and windshield are a good thing.
I remember once using a windshield from a clickstand on a mini-trangia in summer. The windshield was a pretty snug fit round the mini trangia pot stand and the effect was to overheat the trangia to the point where the meths was boiling off far too quickly. It absolutely drank fuel. The water boiled a bit quicker, but it was such a thirsty stove, I would think the use of this particular windshield on this particular stove at this particular time of year was a negative, rather than a positive. The design and size of the windshield is important, as well as the material it is made from, as well as the type of stove it's used on, as well as the weather.
To be honest, I think there are too many variable to test with a simple hypothesis and if I were the OP, I would probably look for something else for my A-Levels. There ay looking for your ability to design an experiment, design out all factors that can influence the test, write a hypothesis or null-hypothesis, design good methodology, conduct the experiment and properly analyse the data you acquire. They are interested in the process of doing it, not the subject matter. To that end, a very simple experiment will allow the best results. I thin k I would forget about the windshield idea and just run an experiment to test the effect of using a lid on a pot. It's a much simpler experiment, far fewer variable and will produce data that is easy to analyse with a t-test or something.
To be honest, I think there are too many variable to test with a simple hypothesis and if I were the OP, I would probably look for something else for my A-Levels. There ay looking for your ability to design an experiment, design out all factors that can influence the test, write a hypothesis or null-hypothesis, design good methodology, conduct the experiment and properly analyse the data you acquire. They are interested in the process of doing it, not the subject matter. To that end, a very simple experiment will allow the best results. I thin k I would forget about the windshield idea and just run an experiment to test the effect of using a lid on a pot. It's a much simpler experiment, far fewer variable and will produce data that is easy to analyse with a t-test or something.
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shambling shaman
I think we are on the same wave length here............Wind shield and pot lid, good things............Sleeping with your gas canister, need to get out more lol
I think we are on the same wave length here............Wind shield and pot lid, good things............Sleeping with your gas canister, need to get out more lol
Just checked in to see if I got any comments and overwhelmed at the responses. In short I am using a gas stove as was unable to use meths and accept there are many varibles but will only be able to allow for fan, sheild and lid.
Will get back to you over the weekend with a fuller reply
Thanks
Will get back to you over the weekend with a fuller reply
Thanks
Shambling Shaman
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Hi Drury
Interesting!
Ive often considered this sort of thing as my car overheats or Ive burned some more toast with my blowlamp (I was banned from setting fire to anything else as a kid).
Two more things that might be worth looking at if you get the chance to look at things outside the box...
Pressure cooker pots. They have a pressure relief valve in the sealed lid and heat extremely fast, twice as heavy, but no idea how much fuel it would save
Those new carbon systems - forgotten what their full name is, has a "Heat sink" on the bottom to get more surface area for the heat to reach the water. Not sure if this could be as effective as a windshield if you set it to fit inside your shield
Fan high, medium, low.....As a boatist I had to have a wind meter so I could look like I knew what I was doing. It wasnt very successful at improving my boating, but would give you wind speeds off your fan. They are about £30, but most sailors have one and there must be one in your area that you may be able to borrow
Just realised I need to get back up to speed on my counting.
Good luck and please let us know how you get on
Interesting!
Ive often considered this sort of thing as my car overheats or Ive burned some more toast with my blowlamp (I was banned from setting fire to anything else as a kid).
Two more things that might be worth looking at if you get the chance to look at things outside the box...
Pressure cooker pots. They have a pressure relief valve in the sealed lid and heat extremely fast, twice as heavy, but no idea how much fuel it would save
Those new carbon systems - forgotten what their full name is, has a "Heat sink" on the bottom to get more surface area for the heat to reach the water. Not sure if this could be as effective as a windshield if you set it to fit inside your shield
Fan high, medium, low.....As a boatist I had to have a wind meter so I could look like I knew what I was doing. It wasnt very successful at improving my boating, but would give you wind speeds off your fan. They are about £30, but most sailors have one and there must be one in your area that you may be able to borrow
Just realised I need to get back up to speed on my counting.
Good luck and please let us know how you get on
Windshields make a significant difference to fuel efficiency. A windshield can also be a pot skirt that directs the flow of hot gases around the pot.
Correctly designed pot skirts that are also windshields can double the efficiency of the stove.
The following link may be helpful to you:
http://www.bioenergylists.org/content/pot-skirt-investigat
Correctly designed pot skirts that are also windshields can double the efficiency of the stove.
The following link may be helpful to you:
http://www.bioenergylists.org/content/pot-skirt-investigat
Perhaps a better way of handling this, would be if you posted your hypothesis? We can then give you some comments on the issues you might face. At the end of the day, this is about getting a good grade, not conducting an interesting experiment.
Please be very careful when using an enclosed windshield on a stove, too close and it WILL sooner or later cause the stove to over heat. Be extremely careful if using petrol stoves. I know several experienced stovies who have had problems with stoves when conducting windshield experiments.
is it possible to fit a wind shield to liquid fuel stoves so as to only enclose the flame and not the tank, would it be better to have the windshield attached to the pot as opposed to the stove, I have limited experience of using liquid fuel stoves with anything beyond what they are issued with, generally using gas(in know its liquid in the can but you know what i mean) and i have a wind shield that i hold in place with the plastic ring that screws down to cover the main attachment, it only covers the flame and base of pot, so the gas can is open to the air completely, can you do something similar on a petrol type pressure stove?
Southey
Basically yes to all your questions, except the attaching the windshield to the pot, but you may have to make it yourself (although there are some simple home designs to make)
Rik, you and I must hang around with very different folks, as I have never known anyone have an accident using a windshield! As for your sooner or later, how long is the 'later' bit? I often have my windshield within 6-9mm of my pot (thus my stove) and never get a problem lol, not even if I am cooking for 40-45 mins.
It is interesting to note that many websites do not so a windshield as a risk either, whereas a ground reflector on the other hand, can cause overheating.
Basically yes to all your questions, except the attaching the windshield to the pot, but you may have to make it yourself (although there are some simple home designs to make)
Rik, you and I must hang around with very different folks, as I have never known anyone have an accident using a windshield! As for your sooner or later, how long is the 'later' bit? I often have my windshield within 6-9mm of my pot (thus my stove) and never get a problem lol, not even if I am cooking for 40-45 mins.
It is interesting to note that many websites do not so a windshield as a risk either, whereas a ground reflector on the other hand, can cause overheating.
I hang around with people who collect stoves and generally know what they are talking about. When you experiment you can put yourself at risk of a home made windshield overheating the fuel tank if you don't leave enough space for heat to escape. Many of my stoves and those of other members here have a pressure release valve that will pop which is no problem with paraffin but is a bit iffy if you are burning naptha. You can blow a gas cylendar too and the last thing I want is for someone to get hurt because he had bad tips off a comparative numptie when it comes to cookers. I want this lad to remain safe.
Rik_uk3
Thanks for the private message you sent me.
To be honest, you could have asked any serious questions you had about my my friends and my own experience of stove safety on the main thread, then the wider audience could benefit
Of course, you may not have been as happy to throw boasts and insults towards me on the main thread lol! CLEAR....(see what I did there lol)
Thanks for the private message you sent me.
To be honest, you could have asked any serious questions you had about my my friends and my own experience of stove safety on the main thread, then the wider audience could benefit
Of course, you may not have been as happy to throw boasts and insults towards me on the main thread lol!
CLEAR....(see what I did there lol)
