Why use a windshield - "A" level investigation help please!

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Jun 14, 2010
4
3
kent
As part of my A Level studies I am carrying out an investigation in order to answer the question " Is it more worthwhile to carry the weight of a windshield and lid or the extra fuel?" I intend to do a number of experiments to collect numerical data to prove the point one way or the other. It will be based around boiling 500ml of water to make a brew, i.e. how many brews before it pays for itself!

Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome. I will be doing this in a classroom rather than in the field but hope the results will still be of interest to you all.
 

Shambling Shaman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 1, 2006
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www.mindsetcentral.com
Well if theres no wind? the use/non use of a windshield is mute.

In my experience the weight of a lid and a windshield are buy far less than fuel. (except for my wood burner as you just pick that up where you are)

Will you be using a fan to simulate varying wind speeds?
 

Melonfish

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 8, 2009
2,460
1
Warrington, UK
i was going to say, perhaps a wind tunnel setup with your stove would allow the control of the wind input thus allowing accurate readings on the shield effectiveness.
also remember to do each test from cold so you get total heat up time.
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
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Edinburgh
Well if theres no wind? the use/non use of a windshield is mute.

Not entirely - the windshield also acts as a heat reflector.

I haven't weighed my windshield or lid, but since they're both made from foil, it can't be more than a few grammes. And I know from experience that the windshield can make the difference between reaching a roiling boil with fuel to spare and not reaching the boil at all... So in my mind there's no question that it's worth having, but numerical data is always good!
 
Jun 14, 2010
4
3
kent
Thank you greatly for the fast comments. I agree that when there is no wind the need for a windshield is minimal, however a windshield also acts as a shield against heat loss, by just how much, is one of the things i would like to measure.

Your point regarding the fan is valid, however I did not want to put too much detail into my first post. I Intend to use a desk fan in order to simulate the wind, i will carry out the experiments with the fan; off, slow, medium and fast as well as with and without windshield and lid. I plan on 13 different experiment which will consist of different combinations of the equipment, I will repeat each different experiment to calculate an average.

Again thank you for your comments.
As you can tell I am new to this...Every little helps
 

The Big Lebowski

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 11, 2010
2,320
6
Sunny Wales!
Although i'm fairly new to ethanol stoves, bear in mind some can only be filled so much, and then have to be cooled to refill.

So, no matter how much fuel you have, it can be a very long and drawn out process with no winshield at two or even three top-up's to boil water... To give you an idea of the imprtance of wind protection, exposed on a slightly breezey (even very gentle) day (no WS) i can just about get piping hot water from one ethanol fill, just.

Put the same stove, same day in a wooded area (no breeze and no WS) and its a rolling boil with half the fuel left over.

Just an observation, hth, TBL.
 

gregorach

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Sep 15, 2005
3,723
28
51
Edinburgh
So, no matter how much fuel you have, it can be a very long and drawn out process with no winshield at two or even three top-up's to boil water...

In that situation, for a test like this, I wouldn't bother refilling in order to get to the boil - I'd just write it down as "failed to reach boil" and note the maximum temperature.

Which reminds me - you will need to be sure to use exactly the same amount of fuel each time. Sorry if this is obvious. :)
 

The Big Lebowski

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Aug 11, 2010
2,320
6
Sunny Wales!
Agreed gregorach, just pointing out sometimes it isnt practical to refill in the field, which is where it counts..!

You want it to boil on one fill, first time.

Regards, TBL
 

Mesquite

It is what it is.
Mar 5, 2008
27,930
2,960
62
~Hemel Hempstead~
Interesting experiment.

What type of stove and fuel are you intending to use? Also, how many times do you intend to repeat each experiment to obtain your averagefigures?
 

rancid badger

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Thank you greatly for the fast comments. I agree that when there is no wind the need for a windshield is minimal, however a windshield also acts as a shield against heat loss, by just how much, is one of the things i would like to measure.

Your point regarding the fan is valid, however I did not want to put too much detail into my first post. I Intend to use a desk fan in order to simulate the wind, i will carry out the experiments with the fan; off, slow, medium and fast as well as with and without windshield and lid. I plan on 13 different experiment which will consist of different combinations of the equipment, I will repeat each different experiment to calculate an average.

Again thank you for your comments.
As you can tell I am new to this...Every little helps

Don't forget to start each experiment from completely cold!

R.B.
 

durulz

Need to contact Admin...
Jun 9, 2008
1,755
1
Elsewhere
I live in Kent as well. If only you'd asked your question yesterday then you could have come with me to the top of the North Downs and watched how the wind blew the flames away from the pot - and no amount of adding extra wood was going to stop that. So I got out an aluminium windshield, to shield the front of the fire from the stiff breeze, and hey presto! The flames burnt vertical rather than horizontal and I soon had a hot cup of Ainsley Harriot's spicy szechuan cup-a-soup! (which, alas, was not as nice as it sounded and looked on the packet)

The question, more fuel or a windshield, is subject to lots of parameters; but on balance I'd go with a windshield - it folds flat and weight is negligible. Or take both.
 

rik_uk3

Banned
Jun 10, 2006
13,320
24
69
south wales
When I was a stove collector I did boil tests on what must have been dozens of stoves and trust me a lid and windshield do make a big difference. If you have to refill a stove your pots to big for the job or the stove is too small, take your pick.
 

Ray Britton

Nomad
Jun 2, 2010
320
0
Bristol
Hiya.

As others have said "Well if theres no wind? the use/non use of a windshield is mute." is not correct at all. The short answer to your question is "how long is a peice of string". That is not being flippant, but you need to add more detail to your equation. If however, you used a lightweight wind shield then the answer will be yes, but yet again you will need to qualify how many uses of the cooker you are referring to. On cookers such as home made meths stoves, a shield of the caldera cone type can add over 25% efficiency to the stove, thus making it very worthwhile very quickly (for my own use, a windshield reduces fuel use by 12-25% depending on stove type).

Hopefully you compare various lids, as for example my ultralight lid and shield for my ultralight pot only weigh 20 grammes together, while my lid for my dutch oven weight a couple of kilos, thus presenting totally different scenarios.

The test conditions (if you have not looked them up already) should be indoors with no breeze present, in a room at twenty degrees and water at twenty degrees C too. Although this is hardly ever likely to occur in the outdoors, or 'the real world' it is the standard test set up stove/pot manufacturers use (which is why their claimed boil times seem a bit far fetched at times).

If you stick to the above criteria then variables such as efficiency of butane V propane V butane/propane mixes at differing temps can be discounted, and purely the differing weights of the fuel need to be addressed.

It is also a good idea to stick to using the same pot for measurements, as I am sure you already know that various metals have different conduction abilities, although this does bring on an interesting twist to the experiment. It could be interesting for you to measure the difference (if any) of boil times when a pot has an alloy lid v a stainless one V a titanium one.

One other interesting point is the difference a close fitting lid makes as opposed to a loose one (its quite different!)

Going back to windshields for a second. The added extra a windshield can give you in increased convection or flame contact to the side wall of the pot, rather than reflected heat (radiation).
Of course this should lead you to also consider the effect of the width of the pot you opt for. A tall narrow pot will have an increased benefit from a lid more than a shallow wide based pot will.
The closeness of the windshield also makes a massive difference to the weight/volume of fuel used to boil your given amount of water, as will the shape of the shield (as in whether it is vertical or cone shaped).

Last but not least, and not directly relating to lids, but it must be remembered that gas stoves are not at their most efficient when on full power setting. It will be found that a gas stove operating at fifty percent capacity will take a bit longer to boil your water, but will also use less fuel. This is important in that if you use a gas stove for your test, then you need to mark off the power setting to keep it consistent, but also bearing in mind the pressure drop of gas as the cylinder empties (which will also affect boil time).

Just a few thoughts :)
 

Shambling Shaman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 1, 2006
3,859
5
55
In The Wild
www.mindsetcentral.com
Hiya.

As others have said "Well if theres no wind? the use/non use of a windshield is mute." is not correct at all. The short answer to your question is "how long is a peice of string". That is not being flippant, but you need to add more detail to your equation. If however, you used a lightweight wind shield then the answer will be yes, but yet again you will need to qualify how many uses of the cooker you are referring to. On cookers such as home made meths stoves, a shield of the caldera cone type can add over 25% efficiency to the stove, thus making it very worthwhile very quickly (for my own use, a windshield reduces fuel use by 12-25% depending on stove type).

Hopefully you compare various lids, as for example my ultralight lid and shield for my ultralight pot only weigh 20 grammes together, while my lid for my dutch oven weight a couple of kilos, thus presenting totally different scenarios.

The test conditions (if you have not looked them up already) should be indoors with no breeze present, in a room at twenty degrees and water at twenty degrees C too. Although this is hardly ever likely to occur in the outdoors, or 'the real world' it is the standard test set up stove/pot manufacturers use (which is why their claimed boil times seem a bit far fetched at times).

If you stick to the above criteria then variables such as efficiency of butane V propane V butane/propane mixes at differing temps can be discounted, and purely the differing weights of the fuel need to be addressed.

It is also a good idea to stick to using the same pot for measurements, as I am sure you already know that various metals have different conduction abilities, although this does bring on an interesting twist to the experiment. It could be interesting for you to measure the difference (if any) of boil times when a pot has an alloy lid v a stainless one V a titanium one.

One other interesting point is the difference a close fitting lid makes as opposed to a loose one (its quite different!)

Going back to windshields for a second. The added extra a windshield can give you in increased convection or flame contact to the side wall of the pot, rather than reflected heat (radiation).
Of course this should lead you to also consider the effect of the width of the pot you opt for. A tall narrow pot will have an increased benefit from a lid more than a shallow wide based pot will.
The closeness of the windshield also makes a massive difference to the weight/volume of fuel used to boil your given amount of water, as will the shape of the shield (as in whether it is vertical or cone shaped).

Last but not least, and not directly relating to lids, but it must be remembered that gas stoves are not at their most efficient when on full power setting. It will be found that a gas stove operating at fifty percent capacity will take a bit longer to boil your water, but will also use less fuel. This is important in that if you use a gas stove for your test, then you need to mark off the power setting to keep it consistent, but also bearing in mind the pressure drop of gas as the cylinder empties (which will also affect boil time).

Just a few thoughts :)

Very well put,

But once again in my defense I know a windshield makes a difference wind or not, but in a class room i think the difference will be negligible, but test my prove me wrong :)
 

ged

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 16, 2009
4,981
15
In the woods if possible.
As part of my A Level studies I am carrying out an investigation ... Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome. I will be doing this in a classroom rather than in the field but hope the results will still be of interest to you all.

Since this is an A level exercise I'm reluctant to, er, throw more things into the pot than have already been thrown in. Certainly you deserve points for making the effort to get opinions here but I'm sure that the object of the exercise isn't to know whether the windshield is worth the fuel (or whatever) at all. The object of the exercise is to find out about you, the experimenter. It's to find out how you approach the problem, whether or not you are methodical, rational, reasonable, capable of thinking outside the box, and so on. It's just the same all the way on to a PhD thesis. Your examiners don't want to know what we think here on BCUK, they want to know about you. So my contribution will be to ask you to ask yourself if you know everything that you think you know (for example do you think that a desk fan can really imitate the wind? and does the pressure in a bottle of butane gradually drop as it empties?) and I'll leave it at that.

Oh, and welcome to the forum! When you've finished your work feel free to pull up a log and chat. :)
 

Martyn

Bushcrafter through and through
Aug 7, 2003
5,252
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staffordshire
www.britishblades.com
Well if theres no wind? the use/non use of a windshield is mute.

I think it's still relevant, it also depends on what the burner is sitting on, if it's a canister, then it may help keep the cannister warm in cold weather which aids the phase change from liquid to gas. There are a lot of variables with the OP's question, maybe too many to test.
 
Last edited:

Shambling Shaman

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 1, 2006
3,859
5
55
In The Wild
www.mindsetcentral.com
I think it's still relevant, it also depends on what the burner is sitting on, if it's a canister, then it may help keep the cannister warm in cold weather which aids the phase change from liquid to gas. There are a lot of variables with the OP's question, maybe too many to test.

But once again in my defense I know a windshield makes a difference wind or not, but in a class room i think the difference will be negligible
 

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