Why no Production Skookum Bushtool

[Coach]

He's not using it properly so we'll steal it off him? Well, that's quite an evolution in any theory of property

I quite like the knife. Not a lot, just a bit. I put my name on the list in 2009 expecting a two and a half year wait at that time. Got an email about a year later saying it was ready, but I passed.

The main negative about the knife is the butt-plate, .An accident just waiting to happen. I somehow doubt they are ever used that much though; the knives I mean. Come to think of it, maybe someone should go round and steal all the unused ones.

Ok . We get the message, you dont like the knife! BUT if you didnt like the butt plate why order it in the first place ???!? Your comment doesnt make sense.!!
Some of us do though, and we're not Stealing anything!! Name his patent, The one that says we cant copy it?? I ?
I wouldnt mind if it was just his property but its not is it, its Mors too. ??
And What accident waiting to happen! Many knives have a butt plate and I dont hear anyone yelling "Accident waiting to happen!!!" Or having an incident. Justify your comment.

 

[Billy-o]

In the German law the public interest, the common welfare has priority over the rights of the owner of something. I guess streets are built on that base in most states for example.

But, do you think that something like that would reasonably apply in this case, Erbs?

 

[Erbswurst]

Depends on the question how much of the design was made by Garcia and how much was made by Kochanski.

I didn't read Kochanski's book yet.
If Garcia only made what Kochanski described and told him it's rather Kochanski's design.
And who reads the description has the right to make his own interpretation. The description was simply written for that, isn't it?

Does anyone have the text at hand, please?

That's from a moral aspect. So far I know you don't get a patent on knives anyway. And without Kochanski's name and PR Garcia surely wouldn't have a waiting list of approximately 10 years.

 

[Billy-o]

This is just from what I recall at the time, Erbs. Garcia designed the Skookum and showed it to Kochanski and asked him to endorse it, which I understand he did. Kochanski's published descriptions of a suitable outdoors knife are made in pretty broad strokes. Essentially something with a 3 1/2" - 4 1/2" blade will do, so it it isn't unwieldy but is big enough for some fire and implement making tasks and the kitchen. Not too thick or thin.

Who knows what Garcia and Kochanski actually said to each other and agreed, but as far as I am aware from conversations, internet discourse and promotional materials at the time, Garcia designed and made the knife and its idiosyncratic sheath, presented it to Kochanski and asked for him to say it was good, fold it into his videos, lectures etc., if he could. Which he did. Maybe Kochanski received some type of one-off or ongoing gratuity for this. No idea, but it's not outside of the realms of possibility. He'll likely have received considerable royalties for his very well selling books, endorsements on pots etc.

 

[Erbswurst]

OK. If it's like that you are right and Garcia can do what he likes with his design.

I just know the videos and here an already pretty old Kochanski described the optimal knive better and indeed also uses the Skookum Bush Tool.

Nevertheless he also showed wood handle Moras in his videos. I really would be interested to know what he though about the Morakniv Garberg, because with this model they eliminated the weak points of their classical construction.

 

[Coach]

Having watched the videos where Mors and Rod described the designing and thinking behind the Skookum I think Mr Garcia would have a hard time claiming the design as his own. Lets be honest Mors was pretty specific and detailed about what he wanted in the ideal knife, and based on those requirements just about anyone would come up with a virtually identical knife to the bushtool.
And as long as the maker isnt trying to pass it off as a real S.B.T. with those initials splashed all over it I fail to see what the problem is.
And as far as the Garberg goes I doubt Mors would be that impressed because it doesnt have the continuous curved edge that he asked for or the fine working point.

 

[Billy-o]

And as long as the maker isnt trying to pass it off as a real S.B.T. with those initials splashed all over it I fail to see what the problem is.

Because any profits from the exploitation of the design should go to Garcia. Of course, this only makes sense if you go along with the principles of ownership that underwrite the idea that you own your own house, car, or any things you invent and have proprietorial rights over. If not, have away at it and start forging money I am fine with it.

However, you will have to be clearer about how any questions about whether Kochanski or Garcia, or perhaps both, have prior claims on the knife bear on the rights or wrongs of someone else copying and profiting from their design and reputations.

 

[C_Claycomb]

I am sure I saw an article (might have been in Tactical Knives Magazine but cannot find it now) that showed a photo with several knives that Rod made and showed to Mors as he refined the design. I know it was not as simple as Rod reading Mors’ book, making a knife and asking Mors to endorse the first interpretation. As for Mors’ description and the inevitability of any knife that followed it looking virtually identical, well I guess it is subjective what a person accepts as “virtually”. You could follow what Mors wrote and make a knife sufficiently different from Rod’s that it could be said to be original or at most just derivative. Certainly it wouldn’t look just like the Skookum. Whether it would have met Mors’ approval is another matter.

Mors published his book and his description of an ideal knife and it was out there for years before Rod came along and made the Skookum. Until then, no one else had arrived at that particular design and no maker was selling anything that looked like it.

If you want to remind yourself of Mors’ description of the ideal knife, it can be found here, reproduced with his permission.

The Skookum Bush Tool (mini review)

I’m not someone who gets all that excited about knives, they are tools for a job and little more, but I must admit taking on a notable air of impatience when I was informed that a skookum Bushtool was on its way. The Skookum is a dedicated Bushcraft/survival knife designed Mors...

bushcraftuk.com

 

[Erbswurst]

I don't understand the meaning of his strength test. Did he want to drive the tip 4 cm into the tree with a vertical or horizontal blade orientation before he steps onto it? I mean, does he step onto the stronger side or the weak side?

 

[Coach]

I am sure I saw an article (might have been in Tactical Knives Magazine but cannot find it now) that showed a photo with several knives that Rod made and showed to Mors as he refined the design. I know it was not as simple as Rod reading Mors’ book, making a knife and asking Mors to endorse the first interpretation. As for Mors’ description and the inevitability of any knife that followed it looking virtually identical, well I guess it is subjective what a person accepts as “virtually”. You could follow what Mors wrote and make a knife sufficiently different from Rod’s that it could be said to be original or at most just derivative. Certainly it wouldn’t look just like the Skookum. Whether it would have met Mors’ approval is another matter.

Mors published his book and his description of an ideal knife and it was out there for years before Rod came along and made the Skookum. Until then, no one else had arrived at that particular design and no maker was selling anything that looked like it.

If you want to remind yourself of Mors’ description of the ideal knife, it can be found here, reproduced with his permission.

The Skookum Bush Tool (mini review)

I’m not someone who gets all that excited about knives, they are tools for a job and little more, but I must admit taking on a notable air of impatience when I was informed that a skookum Bushtool was on its way. The Skookum is a dedicated Bushcraft/survival knife designed Mors...

bushcraftuk.com

Im happy to leave others to read Mors requirements and make up their own minds but I stand by my opinion that its more Mors design than Rod Garcias.

 

[Billy-o]

I can see (and maybe get why) at which point in this conversation the copying of the Skookum by others became a discussion about whether it is Garcia's or Kochanski's design. Do we seem to be edging towards accusing Garcia himself of exploiting Mors Kochanski's design?

What it looked like at the time is that Kochanski had already laid down a broad (and influential) set of parameters of what a knife should be able to do - slightly different from Kephart and others. He wasn't minutely specific and he didn't say much about what the knife should look like; specific grind, handle shape, colour of dye for the sheath, excellence of manufacture - which are fairly significant elements in what distinguishes one make of knife from another, even those for made for similar purposes.

Garcia styled something useful that would fit within that loose outline. Things grew from there. Plenty of other knives fit within that framework too ... as Kochanski himself, in the kinds of knife he has pointed to, agreed.

 

[Coach]

I can see (and maybe get why) at which point in this conversation the copying of the Skookum by others became a discussion about whether it is Garcia's or Kochanski's design. Do we seem to be edging towards accusing Garcia himself of exploiting Mors Kochanski's design?

What it looked like at the time is that Kochanski had already laid down a broad (and influential) set of parameters of what a knife should be able to do - slightly different from Kephart and others. He wasn't minutely specific and he didn't say much about what the knife should look like; specific grind, handle shape, colour of dye for the sheath, excellence of manufacture - which are fairly significant elements in what distinguishes one make of knife from another, even those for made for similar purposes.

Garcia styled something useful that would fit within that loose outline. Things grew from there. Plenty of other knives fit within that framework too ... as Kochanski himself, in the kinds of knife he has pointed to, agreed.

Oh C'mon now!!!, Mors was pretty specific about the details of the handle' - handle back should be in line with the blade spine, handle should fit the hand ie 4 1/2" ish long, made of weather resistant material,ie micarta, no front finger guard! Capable of taking an impact on the pommel.What do you want ?? Him to draw it himself for you?.
As for specific grind that would be Scandi wouldnt it?? He talked about it often enough. And as for sheath dye colour !! Puleese, on that criteria you could have most of the knives in the world!! " Please your Honour.. its Brown!! How dare they!!"
And surely ''Excellence of manufacture" as a criteria for copyright is laughable!! Give it up my friend youre grabbing at straws now!

 

[Billy-o]

And surely ''Excellence of manufacture" as a criteria for copyright is laughable!! Give it up my friend youre grabbing at straws now!

Ever spent any time on the Spyderco website, Coach? Companies make quality control requirements when licensing out products to manufacturers all the time ... probably every time.

I am not sure I can support your argument here that the Skookum is Kochanski's and not Garcia's design. Certain in fact

You are an accomplished knife-collector, Coach, a connoisseur with your eye in, and a refined sense of your subject of interest. You have, as you say, decades of experience with cutlery and are not afraid to spend on the choicest of items. I get the impression that you could readily identify dozens and dozens of currently available knives that would fit the general outline given by Kochanski. Even starting just with Moras, or any of the hundreds of puukkos out there would give a clue to this.

Aside: the development of the puukko and its variations is an interesting thing to think about here. The Skookum and Woodlore are just two examples among thousands of knives where the authorship of the design itself is of predominating significance. However, the archetypes of the various puukkos you might see, appear to be more happily identified as anonymous, vernacular, folk models that are available for anyone to make (though, presumably, there was a point where someone made the first Tommi some time in the C19th, using a smallish grind wheel). The standards by which these knives are judged are not necessarily their personally authored, unique or singular design, as in the cases of the Woodlore or Skookum. Rather, it is the skill with which they are executed, their recognition and interpretation of paradigm, and attention to the tiny details of local and national (again, anonymous) traditions.

No-one, it seems, can claim authorship of the Tommi. Maybe ‘Scandinavia’ can. It is not possible to steal the pattern of, let’s say, a Hankala Tommi, firstly, because it isn’t his design and, secondly, because either you have Hankala’s technical skills or you don’t: It being the skill of the maker which makes all the difference between one Tommi and another. It might be a different case with his Lastu; which is (like the one Tapio Wirkkala designed in the early 1960s) an identifiable puukko variation that Hankala has branded. Like many cutlers, Hankala both makes his own knives as well as licensing the use of his name and designs to others.

I don’t think that anyone disagrees that the copying of existing knife patterns is a complicated area of regional cultural propriety and law. Like Melton Mowbray pies. And, just maybe, the Woodlore, and copies of it can be viewed as a kind of variation within the folk idiom of the puukko. Though, what exactly one is paying for then, when one lays out £800+ for a ‘real’ Mears Woodlore, is another question altogether – especially when Alan Wood might make you one for a fraction of that price. It is a warm and fuzzy feeling, I guess, which is in no way to be undervalued. Scotch gives you that too. But, let's not get into fake Scotch.

 

[Coach]

Ever spent any time on the Spyderco website, Coach? Companies make quality control requirements when licensing out products to manufacturers all the time ... probably every time.

I am not sure I can support your argument here that the Skookum is Kochanski's and not Garcia's design. Certain in fact

You are an accomplished knife-collector, Coach, a connoisseur with your eye in, and a refined sense of your subject of interest. You have, as you say, decades of experience with cutlery and are not afraid to spend on the choicest of items. I get the impression that you could readily identify dozens and dozens of currently available knives that would fit the general outline given by Kochanski. Even starting just with Moras, or any of the hundreds of puukkos out there would give a clue to this.

Aside: the development of the puukko and its variations is an interesting thing to think about here. The Skookum and Woodlore are just two examples among thousands of knives where the authorship of the design itself is of predominating significance. However, the archetypes of the various puukkos you might see, appear to be more happily identified as anonymous, vernacular, folk models that are available for anyone to make (though, presumably, there was a point where someone made the first Tommi some time in the C19th, using a smallish grind wheel). The standards by which these knives are judged are not necessarily their personally authored, unique or singular design, as in the cases of the Woodlore or Skookum. Rather, it is the skill with which they are executed, their recognition and interpretation of paradigm, and attention to the tiny details of local and national (again, anonymous) traditions.

No-one, it seems, can claim authorship of the Tommi. Maybe ‘Scandinavia’ can. It is not possible to steal the pattern of, let’s say, a Hankala Tommi, firstly, because it isn’t his design and, secondly, because either you have Hankala’s technical skills or you don’t: It being the skill of the maker which makes all the difference between one Tommi and another. It might be a different case with his Lastu; which is (like the one Tapio Wirkkala designed in the early 1960s) an identifiable puukko variation that Hankala has branded. Like many cutlers, Hankala both makes his own knives as well as licensing the use of his name and designs to others.

I don’t think that anyone disagrees that the copying of existing knife patterns is a complicated area of regional cultural propriety and law. Like Melton Mowbray pies. And, just maybe, the Woodlore, and copies of it can be viewed as a kind of variation within the folk idiom of the puukko. Though, what exactly one is paying for then, when one lays out £800+ for a ‘real’ Mears Woodlore, is another question altogether – especially when Alan Wood might make you one for a fraction of that price. It is a warm and fuzzy feeling, I guess, which is in no way to be undervalued. Scotch gives you that too. But, let's not get into fake Scotch.

It strikes me that this is a pointless discussion, neither of us is going to change our opinion because of what the other says so how about this?... How about you take out an advert in all the major papers around the world inviting all purchasers of 'Copycat' Bushtools to calculate say 20% of the original purchase price , write out a check for said amount and send it to Rod Garcia - thus making their knife legitimate and satisfying your requirement for ' due rewards' for Mr Garcia.
I'd be interested to see how many agree with your position then.

 

[Billy-o]

Oh, that's a shame. It's conversations like this that have helped me form an opinion, which I didn't actually have before. I thought it was the same for you. Anyway, thanks for joining in to this point.

 

[Erbswurst]

Quality Control?

I probably become old. We used to call the stuff well made or rubbish.

I recently spoke to one of Germany's best reputated axe makers and asked him also about exactly that. They simply make it the right way and of course look what they are doing but there is nobody who looks onto the axes and hatchets in the end to control the quality. That's simply unnecessary because they make quality products and nothing else.

 

[jtkirkland]

As per the title, why is there no standard production model Skookum from one of the big makers?

All versions are of the handmade or boutique maker types with many custom choices but no Benchmade or Kershaw version made en - masse of an acceptable steel, plain jane handle materials and a passable approximation of the neck sheath.

Is it a lack of exposure or demand-or even a patent issue?

For that matter why no production Woodlore that is at an acceptable price like the old Wilkinson Sword micarta ones?

I know there are close approximations but no exact copies.

I, for one, would like to see the prices, and availability, of the bushcraft classics (I'll add in the Spyderco Bushcrafter) be brought further down on the field usability scale and not the collectable icons brought out for worship.

I started off mentioning the Skookum as it seems to fit my criteria for an outdoor fixed blade.

Condor made this version for a while. Appears they may have stopped, though.

Condor CTK246-4.5HC Final Frontier, 4 1/2" 1075 Cabon Steel Black Blade, Micarta Handle

Condor CTK246-4.5HC Final Frontier, 4 1/2" 1075 Cabon Steel Black Blade, Micarta Handle Be always prepared with the Final Frontier fixed blade. The 1075 high carbon steel clip point blade is black coated and has a satin Scandi ground cutti

knifeworks.com

 

[Billy-o]

I recently spoke to one of Germany's best reputated axe makers

Germany is another and, admittedly, terrific country, Erbs; one with an entirely different attitude to work culture to that prevailing in the US, Canada or UK.

I remember watching a video about a German pencil factory (it maybe you who posted it) and how management, operators, administrators, everyone worked together to ensure that any possibility for improvement of product, processes and conditions was exploited to the fullest. Generations of highly-skilled machinists and administrators with a desire for a decent and constant way of life have taken ownership of that mindset and established it. Seems quality control is often embedded in that sensibility; don't need to add it in as an atherthought. (Maybe we make an excuse around VW).

 

[Erbswurst]

With the car makers it's rather that politicians tell them how to make them instead of hearing the engineers what's possible. I mean VW, Audi and Porsche is the same house...

 

[Broch]

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest and, whereas I know little about the detail of the design of this knife, I do know a great deal about design rights and design ownership.

I spent thirty years designing and building equipment to people's specifications. They only owned the design rights if they paid me 100% for the design and verification process. If I took their specification, designed it myself at my cost, then sold the product to them, I maintained the design rights. No contract, no payment, no design rights - that's defined in commercial law. If I included any part of my own design into the product I would maintain some design rights - something we always aimed to do

If a product is well enough designed and specified it is possible to apply for and get either registered design rights or patent. However, again, that is a process (expensive) that is covered by law. If a person or organisation is daft enough to release a specification or design into the public domain without filing for design rights or patent, they lose those rights (other than in very specific circumstances).

There is the subject of copyright, particularly for written works, photographs and artwork, whereby the rights are with the producer without registration - but it must be 'designed' or produced, not just 'specified'.

I admit, there are detailed caveats and exclusions, but I doubt they apply in this case.