Who Dunnit?

[zorro]

Found this on my lawn this afternoon about 3.30.

Freshly killed, blood on the head wound still wet.

18 in long, lots of small puncture wounds down it's body.

Any ideas who the culprit is?

 

[launditch1]

Bear grylls?

 

[jamalex]

Guessing it's not a mongoose! Most likely a cat, very brave, though would expect it to take it away.

 

[JonathanD]

Corvid, without a doubt. Could have been a cat, but in my experience they do much more damage to the lung area before attacking the head.

 

[zorro]

Corvid, without a doubt. Could have been a cat, but in my experience they do much more damage to the lung area before attacking the head.

Interesting. Got a pair of crows nesting at the bottom of the garden, they've been very stroppy lately.

 

[JonathanD]

Interesting. Got a pair of crows nesting at the bottom of the garden, they've been very stroppy lately.

That'll be them. Corvids are the biggest threats to our native snakes. Surprisingly so are pheasants. Your picture was a classic corvid attack. I should imagine that there are several mating pairs of grass snakes within that vicinity this time of year and it makes them less observant and open to attack. Cats normally won't cause that much damage due to their hatred of the grass snake defence stink. Especially to the head area.

 

[zorro]

That'll be them. Corvids are the biggest threats to our native snakes. Surprisingly so are pheasants. Your picture was a classic corvid attack.

Thankyou.

 

[JonathanD]

Just out of curiosity, was the head upside down and the body the right way. It seems that some corvids won't stop pecking until the head turns over.

 

[Jericho]

So, did you skin it and eat it, or do they give you gas?

 

[zorro]

Just out of curiosity, was the head upside down and the body the right way. It seems that some corvids won't stop pecking until the head turns over.

The body was upside down, took me a second to realise what it was.

So, did you skin it and eat it, or do they give you gas?

I nearly sh@t myself when I picked it up.

It was obviously dead, but its tail twitched. I nearly launched it.

It had a funeral with full military honours. :vio:

 

[Commoner]

"Corvids are the biggest threats to our native snakes."

sorry but this is gravely mistaken conjecture at best, actually its plain tosh.

corvids are not, not, not any significant threat to our native snakes, habitat degradation, loss of habitat and fragmentation of habitat are far more important. think about it, corvids and snakes co-exist everywhere that there are snakes, worldwide, and have done so for millenia.

The only way corvids could significantly damage a local reptile population were if that population was completely isolated and in that case any significant predation from cats, corvids etc etc etc could lead to a localised extinction, but very localised and not necessarily permantent if the habitat was linked up to other populations again. Adult snakes are a more significant predator for juvenile snakes than corvids. Road kills are probably more pertinent.

Only way to know what killed your grass snake is to have seen it happen, do you have a pond with fish? Grass snakes are great swimmers and good fishers, could be a heron got it and then was disturbed... any number of culprits.

 

[JonathanD]

"Corvids are the biggest threats to our native snakes."

sorry but this is gravely mistaken conjecture at best, actually its plain tosh.

corvids are not, not, not any significant threat to our native snakes, habitat degradation, loss of habitat and fragmentation of habitat are far more important. think about it, corvids and snakes co-exist everywhere that there are snakes, worldwide, and have done so for millenia.

The only way corvids could significantly damage a local reptile population were if that population was completely isolated and in that case any significant predation from cats, corvids etc etc etc could lead to a localised extinction, but very localised and not necessarily permantent if the habitat was linked up to other populations again. Adult snakes are a more significant predator for juvenile snakes than corvids. Road kills are probably more pertinent.

Only way to know what killed your grass snake is to have seen it happen, do you have a pond with fish? Grass snakes are great swimmers and good fishers, could be a heron got it and then was disturbed... any number of culprits.

We were not talking about habitat degredation, but predation by other animals. Obviously there are far bigger threats to snakes than natural predation, but that's not what we were talking about here. It is widely known and accepted that corvids have a huge effect on snakes in this country and especially on Vb. populations during the neonate stage. One adult can take up to five within an hour. Last year I even had a 20cm individual dropped onto my shoulder from a perched rook (not something I want to happen again). Even Blackbirds predate neos during Sept/Oct. Adults are frequently taken by corvids who seem to relish the brain material but nothing else. Heron are also resonsible, yes, but they tend to eat their snakes and cause much more pronounced damage to the head with fewer strikes than corvids, so not beyond reason to rule that out. Birds of prey also tend to tear at the head, so not unreasonable to rule that out. I must have examined hundreds of dead snakes over the last 25 years, so observation is also backed up by experience. And in my experience, that was definately an avian attacker that spent some time pecking the head and body, therefore ruling out the quick peck and swallow of the heron, the tearing effect of the raptor, and certainly not a predator with teeth of any kind.

It's quite rare to actually witness snakes taken by predators, but the very vast majority of people see corvids take them far more regularly than any other predator. I've personally seen heron take grass snakes only twice, but I've seen rooks and crows take adders, grass snakes and even a smooth snake several times in the last five years. Tony Phelps, one of the leading british herpetologists has concluded that corvids are THE MAIN predators, so it is hardly 'tosh', and the herpetological world has embraced this fact for over 20 years, the loss of habitat and more exposed areas has only increased this predation. Obviously Smooth snakes are restricted to a few small areas in the UK, so have no impact on the population density in the Uk as a whole:


Quote from Tony Phelps....
The main predators of adders are corvids. Despite the population explosion of buzzard in S.England does not seem to have had a significant impact. The smooth snake is a significant predator of adders up to 30cm.(in SE Dorset anyway).
.

It is also quite easy to identify the causes of deaths in snakes and most other animals. Different predators leave different marks and also have very different ways of killing. To say that the only way to identify the predator involved is to see it firsthand is just daft, most people on here could identify the predator from examination of the left overs... that is a key skill in tracking. And very much so in herpetology. If you think that a bite mark looks anything like a peck mark, then I wonder what you are doing.

What is your source for your sweeping statement that flies in the face of all study completed on the predation of snakes within the UK? And why in your opinion is it impossible to identify whether a snake was pecked or bitten.

Here's one that is more difficult though. Who dun this (it has been moved from the kill site)...

 

[wattsy]

looks like a heron did the one in the op to me they go straight for the head and thats a lot of damage for a crow

 

[Adze]

Here's one that is more difficult though. Who dun this (it has been moved from the kill site)...

That's more than difficult - I can't see any obvious 'wounding' per se - there's some flattening though, so roadkill isn't beyond the realms of reason.

 

[JonathanD]

looks like a heron did the one in the op to me they go straight for the head and thats a lot of damage for a crow

Crows do loads of damage. They actually eat the brain, and leave peck marks all down the body.. sometimes like playing with it. As you say heron do for the most part attack the head and Zorrs says that the whole body has peck marks.

 

[JonathanD]

That's more than difficult - I can't see any obvious 'wounding' per se - there's some flattening though, so roadkill isn't beyond the realms of reason.

It was actually run over by a bulldozer on a known adder site. Heathland management folks have obliterated the area and left bodies in their wake. Seems pretty heathland is more important than hibernacula sites and breeding grounds for our rare and native species..... again

 

[poddle]

I would say that the assailant was almost certainly a Tawny Owl. Although a Sparrow Hawk could easily do this.

The wound looks fresh enough, suggesting a daytime attack if found in the afternoon, although the wound does not look like the brain has been heavily damaged so it may be walking wounded (without legs)

Tawnies will hunt in the day, but prefer dusk, Sparrow Hawks are of course on patrol all day.

A corvid would not inflict that injury, Its a bird of Prey without doubt.

 

[Andy2112]

It was actually run over by a bulldozer on a known adder site. Heathland management folks have obliterated the area and left bodies in their wake. Seems pretty heathland is more important than hibernacula sites and breeding grounds for our rare and native species..... again

That wouldn't be over Kinver Edge would it mate ? Crying shame how they have decimated the area with all those lovely trees etc, it looks too open for me now. They did the same down Kingsford Lane, took loads of trees out and put up fences.

 

[JonathanD]

A corvid would not inflict that injury, Its a bird of Prey without doubt.

One thing I certainly know, it's not is a bird of prey... honestly. They kill snakes in a different way and don't peck in the head, they tear at it and leave quite different wounds. Trust me, I've been a consulting herpetologist for 25 years and have seen many dead snakes killed by most things. This one was certainly not a raptor or owl kill.

It's certainly been pecked, which goes in the favour of heron or crow options.

 

[JonathanD]

That wouldn't be over Kinver Edge would it mate ? Crying shame how they have decimated the area with all those lovely trees etc, it looks too open for me now. They did the same down Kingsford Lane, took loads of trees out and put up fences.

It's not at Kinver, no. The populations have been decimated over Kinver though. The cattle grazing has done enormous damage to the population. The trees and gorse that they've cleared in the last couple of months have without doubt killed many reptiles in known hibernacula. Why they chose that time of year I don't know, and the hiberbacula had been logged for many years on that location. I have only seen one male in that area this year now, and last year counted 27 individuals at the same site. They are currently clearing the bracken on breeding grounds which will obviously affect the population also. The groups are so fragmented now that I can seriously see them being wiped out totally in the next five to ten years. All this in an area that was well known for it's adder population too.

Kingsford does seem to have been affected, and again, I've only counted 18 adders in the area this year and two dead ones. One was (coincidentally) a corvid and the other was obviously beaten to death with a stick. I've found six slow-worms in the area that met a similar fate. Mark O'Shea came out with me last year and Kingsford used to be his hunting ground many years ago, he was really gutted and shocked by the declining numbers.

Earlier this year I found a female that has been recorded in the same spot for the last seven years in the car park well away from the population. When I removed her from the danger area to take her back where she should be, I found that the area no longer existed and had been chopped and burned considerably. In short, her safe site had been destroyed and she had tried to move on. Unfortunately there was nowhere to move too. I released her in a safer area, but it's a safe bet that she will have problems relocating in the area as it is now.

We are currently compiling evidence for a rethink on the current projects in that area, and have a meeting with the various bodies in the next few weeks. But I fear it will again fall on deaf ears and it may now be too late.