What would a modern scouts be like?

[Paul_B]

Imagine an alternative universe where scouting and similar hadn't been started way back in Baden-Powell's day. Imagine if it had started in today's society. How different would it be?

I'm wondering whether the military aspect of parades, packs, uniforms, etc would be present. Would there be big changes or small? Scouting is still a kids group so there's always going to be similarities but it's often the subtle things that make the group culture/character different. There will always be crowd control and herding mice aspect at times, especially with beavers.

I ask this as a big fan of the movement but it still seems to me to be of or from the times it came from. Starting from scratch with current, modern attitudes I think it would be different as an organisation.

 

[Toddy]

I think it would be much more like the Woodcraft Folk.

The Woodcraft Folk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Wander]

Yes, inevitably it would be quite different. Which is absolutely fine.

I think there would be a strong emphasis on conservation and the environment.
I doubt there would be the uniform or any 'religious' element.
I expect there would be a more risk-averse attitude.

 

[Paul_B]

I think it would be much more like the Woodcraft Folk.

The Woodcraft Folk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wonder whether there would be a Creed or moral code like all these old organisations. That seems more of the past to me. There would be some aim but it expressed as a creed or moral code. Goals or aims yes but not codes. Ones imposed the other is more about achieving imho.

Modern day is less about conforming and codes which I think would be reflected more in the new, hypothetical organisation.

 

[TeeDee]

Modern day is less about conforming and codes which I think would be reflected more in the new, hypothetical organisation.

Do you think this is more or less beneficial in the long term?

 

[Wander]

Do you think this is more or less beneficial in the long term?

That's a hard one to say.
It's all about degrees.
Yes, I do think some kind of community identity is a good thing (witness some of the upheavals we're currently going through), where people consider themselves connected and identifying with those around them, rather than rampant individualism and thinking only of the self.
Conversely, too much conforming usually only plays into the hands of those laying down the laws (again, we can probably think of real-world examples of that).
But where's the golden spot?
Again, it depends on who's laying down the laws.
It's just about impossible to say.

 

[CLEM]

Crap, even crappier than it is now.

 

[Wander]

Crap, even crappier than it is now.

Hmm...maybe for you, but not for them.
Who are you (or me) to tell others how to enjoy themselves?

I remember, back in the late 70s/early 80s, being obsessed with Star Wars (OK, I still am, though the obsession has changed).
My parents would roll their eyes at it. They would talk about their films, the things they did as children, etc.
So should I have deferred to them, and re-lived their childhood?
No, of course not.
And neither should young people today. They should not defer to the likes of you and me (or anyone else) telling them how everything they do is crap. That's just reactionary, old-fart, nonsense.
They are free and right to pursue their childhoods in the way that reflects the world around them with the influences they are under. Just like you and I did.
Doubtless they are making mistakes (just like we did), but doubtless it is also right for them, and not 'crap'.

 

[CLEM]

Nah it’d be crap like how almost everything that was good has become less good.
See your beloved Star Trek

 

[Wander]

You mean Star Wars.
That's a case in point.
'My' Star Wars came to an end in 1983.
Are the prequels and sequels any good? Well, they didn't ring any bells for me. But then, I am no longer that little boy who sat in the cinema all those years ago.
I've seen a lot of films since then, had a lot of life experiences. It was impossible for me to watch the new films with the same eyes I saw the originals. So I couldn't enjoy them as much.
But then, they weren't aimed at me.
They were aimed at a new generation of children who could bring the same naivety and fascination that I once did. And the continued interest and popularity means they are clearly appealing to someone, if not me.
And that would be the same for any new iteration of the Scouts.
It wouldn't be the Scouts that an older generation remembers, but that wouldn't make it 'crap' for all those who went on to enjoy themselves.

 

[Paul_B]

That's a hard one to say.
It's all about degrees.
Yes, I do think some kind of community identity is a good thing (witness some of the upheavals we're currently going through), where people consider themselves connected and identifying with those around them, rather than rampant individualism and thinking only of the self.
Conversely, too much conforming usually only plays into the hands of those laying down the laws (again, we can probably think of real-world examples of that).
But where's the golden spot?
Again, it depends on who's laying down the laws.
It's just about impossible to say.

I think the individualism will be about being yourself within the organisation which has to manage and indeed encourage that. In the past it was about self reliance within a conforming society and organisation. You were not an individual as much as allowed more.

Now I think organisations have to accept and fit people in. That's why I think aims and goals are more important. For example, the goal might be to enable a kid to have skills of use in the modern world. Perhaps social skills more than making a fire. How to street clear of gangs perhaps. There's a big change between coping in the 1920s and now as a youth. The pressures are different. There's not the memory of the great war to create the idea of creating a kid able to fit into the army later on or having militaristic or outdoors skills quite as much as back then.

I think instead of helping kids survive the world back then it'll be about surviving the world we have now. I grew up in a rural area and a commuter village. Nice, safe and middle class area I'd say. There was no driver to becoming streetwise. I would say my naivety was a problem in Leeds and Liverpool as a student. In modern days perhaps kids need to know how to survive a mugging more than being stuck outside in the cold??

I think that's where the goals over creed, rules or oaths of allegiance come in. We aim to produce a kid able to survive the modern playground or world not pre or immediately post great war.

That's not to say scouting hasn't modernised a lot just to say if it didn't exist the modern, newly founded version would not be that close to current scouting I think. Can quite close in on what it is but the above is kind of where I'm thinking with this. I think it's an interesting thought process and I think you are closing in on this for me. I think the modern scouting and a hypothetical new organisation formed now of scouting hadn't been formed would not feel or be the same. I think that's probably accepted.

 

[Paul_B]

Nah it’d be crap like how almost everything that was good has become less good.
See your beloved Star Trek

But was star trek ever really that good in the first place? Was the original scouting versus the modern scouting any good? I think original scouting would not have been successful today. Just like original series star trek wouldn't have got TV time now.

 

[CLEM]

I meant Star Wars yes mate, but it makes no difference really as both have gone the same way. Not as it was intended, lacking authenticity, dissatisfying and less and less truthful. The numbers back this up I believe.
That’s not reactionary it’s just noticing, pattern recognition. Folk are crying out for the authentic, children more than ever. It’s this lack of the authentic, lack of truth that is the fuel for this dissatisfaction in general. The avalanche of mental problems amongst children nowadays that’s a reaction-ary.

 

[Kadushu]

Pretty good on Ark: Survival Evolved

 

[Oliver G]

I'm not sure about scouts but our explorer scout unit it quite modern in the way we do things, and I think that is primarily due to the scouts leading and determining what they want to do within the bounds of scouting. As new generations of scouts come through the methods and plans will change with what they bring in from outside scouting, us leaders are just there to facilitate and keep them relatively safe.

In terms of how different it would be from BP's day, I think just looking at our scouts now they are completely different beasts. We are only just bringing in uniforms (Shirt and kerchief), we don't do muster, even their camping kit is what they can provide and we supplement where they can't get hold of kit so there's no rigid "you must pack you kit like this", we give them the knowledge of our experience and they can choose to take it or not (nine time out of ten they take it because then they can learn from our mistakes). I went to military school so had all the fun and games that went along with it, I wouldn't want any of my scouts to go through that but if they asked to have that experience it's down to me as a leader to facilitate that.

I type all this knowing full well the other units in our area operate differently. I would say for certain scouting in inner London and in the cairngorms are worlds apart, scouting is a reflection of the kids and leaders that form the groups in the areas and even for our tiny little island we have a melange of cultures and beliefs which drive our everyday actions.

 

[Wander]

It’s this lack of the authentic, lack of truth that is the fuel for this dissatisfaction in general

Twas ever thus.
Could you kindly point out to us when that golden age of authenticity was?
Ever since the Industrial Revolution gave birth to a Marketing Revolution (some time in the early 19th Century, at the latest) the world has never been 'authentic'. There never was such a thing as authenticity in our lifetimes, our parent's lifetimes, their parent's lifetimes, and so on.
But an older generation has forever bemoaned a younger generation.
Of the two, I think I know which is the most likely to be going on here.

 

[Tengu]

Thats a very interesting question.

You mentioned the Woodcraft folk; I met a leader once and he lent me one of the few books written on the subject.

I came away with the idea that it was Upper middleclass folk pretending to be working class. (The demographic it was aimed at and was conspicuous by its absence).

I had a look on the website, it seemed to be about teaching kids how bad the world is. (as if they didnt already know)

Not about how to make the world a better place. (Which is what the Scouts do).

Maybe I am wrong, can anyone correct me?

 

[CLEM]

Twas ever thus.
Could you kindly point out to us when that golden age of authenticity was?
Ever since the Industrial Revolution gave birth to a Marketing Revolution (some time in the early 19th Century, at the latest) the world has never been 'authentic'. There never was such a thing as authenticity in our lifetimes, our parent's lifetimes, their parent's lifetimes, and so on.
But an older generation has forever bemoaned a younger generation.
Of the two, I think I know which is the most likely to be going on here.

I dunno about doing so kindly, brace yaself mate I’am going in dry ere but I can point out there was a time and not very long ago too were empirical truth, biology, science, objective fact was the standard and not fweewings, relativism and ideological doctrine.

 

[Kadushu]

I'm not sure about scouts but our explorer scout unit it quite modern in the way we do things, and I think that is primarily due to the scouts leading and determining what they want to do within the bounds of scouting. As new generations of scouts come through the methods and plans will change with what they bring in from outside scouting, us leaders are just there to facilitate and keep them relatively safe.

In terms of how different it would be from BP's day, I think just looking at our scouts now they are completely different beasts. We are only just bringing in uniforms (Shirt and kerchief), we don't do muster, even their camping kit is what they can provide and we supplement where they can't get hold of kit so there's no rigid "you must pack you kit like this", we give them the knowledge of our experience and they can choose to take it or not (nine time out of ten they take it because then they can learn from our mistakes). I went to military school so had all the fun and games that went along with it, I wouldn't want any of my scouts to go through that but if they asked to have that experience it's down to me as a leader to facilitate that.

I type all this knowing full well the other units in our area operate differently. I would say for certain scouting in inner London and in the cairngorms are worlds apart, scouting is a reflection of the kids and leaders that form the groups in the areas and even for our tiny little island we have a melange of cultures and beliefs which drive our everyday actions.

I think your last paragraph is a very important point. When I was in the Sea Scouts, our group was run pretty much as a generic youth group. We went canoeing but the rest of the time was spent playing ball games and such. We never learnt anything about camping, wildlife, whittling or anything "scouting." That's partly why I left. The local Cubs group was totally different and much more what you'd expect. I guess the Scouts were also run correctly but it just happened that my friend invited me to join the Sea Scouts.

 

[billycoen]

The little darlings would set up camp,and leave it all there when they went home..ref Reading Festival.