Huh? I was just mentioning what was in the documentary. A historic thing, not what I am intending to do!
What to do with partially boggy land?
- Thread starter bushcraftlearner83729
- Start date
Willow sprouts like billy-o.
My Grandfather used willow peasticks...often ended up more willow shoots than peas.
(The weeping willow in this country started life as a dismantled basket planted out by a curious receiver of a foreign gift, I believe)
Go find a willow you like and cut a few small branches from it.
(In fact its entirely possible there is someone on here who will send you a bundle)
I dont know about clearing, but provided the young plant isnt outcompeted, I doubt you need to do much.
My Grandfather used willow peasticks...often ended up more willow shoots than peas.
(The weeping willow in this country started life as a dismantled basket planted out by a curious receiver of a foreign gift, I believe)
Go find a willow you like and cut a few small branches from it.
(In fact its entirely possible there is someone on here who will send you a bundle)
I dont know about clearing, but provided the young plant isnt outcompeted, I doubt you need to do much.
My questions as to planting seem to be answered here: https://www.thewillowbank.com/willow-cuttings-for-sale/
Bigger ones tolerate more weeds, smaller like less competition.
Another question, how can I get cheap timber for woodworking? My woodland on here is nothing to speak of so thought I could buy some in.
Someone elsewhere mentioned round wood and read it is the cheapest since it is unprocessed, or least processed, but looking online I don't see places that sell it to the public like that.
I am not fussy about the type just that it is relatively straight to make useful things out of like benches, walls and roofs.
Can I buy cheap off cuts from local timber yards?
Willow grows very easily from shoots, and very quickly too. If you have an established willow and pollard it, you have a ready supply of willow whips to plant. It will soon get established. It is exponential, once you have a few established the amount of shoots you will get off them will just multiply. I have known willows to grow more than 2 metres in a year, especially in boggy areas, they love it.
@bushcraftlearner83729: I mentioned Planning because in some authorities, putting hard core down for vehicle access needs permission.
What local authorities don't typically like is anything which they feel might potentially lead to breach of a policy such as "no new dwellings outside designated areas or as infill." Things like hardcore going down for parking on agricultural land, from a person living in a van, is likely to be see as the start of a slippery slope towards trying to get permission for a residential development which otherwise wouldn't be permitted.
I don't know what your long-term intentions are- only you know that- but you come across to me as someone who lives in a van, has bought some land and intends to park on it and live there, and try to live self-sufficiently. Whilst this may be a laudable aim, there is nevertheless a bunch of bureaucracy governing such things, and if you want to navigate that successfully, a clear and realistic plan is required.
Willow: the bare-root (bare root- not cut rod) Salix verminalis will establish in a boggy area in grassland without weed suppression, but they are slower to get away and then grow more slowly. The retailers recommend cutting the competing stuff down and then putting weed suppression down for the first could of years. (I've been experimenting with various planting on a damp Welsh hillside the past couple of years so I am speaking from recent experience. I have had some successes and a bunch of failures- which informed my final plans).
If you want to cut an acre or two of rough Welsh hillside grassland then (again from experience), I strongly recommend getting a big petrol-driven brushcutter-strimmer- a decent make like a Honda, biggest engine they do, you'll also need an arb mask, ear defenders and safety glasses under the arb mask- and get a set of ballistic boots if you want to use the blade rather than the line. It's still hard work but is doable for one person. (Or you could use a scythe- if you have or cna learn the skillset- but you would need a decent ditch blade, Scythes Cymru have a good range and do courses too).
GC
What local authorities don't typically like is anything which they feel might potentially lead to breach of a policy such as "no new dwellings outside designated areas or as infill." Things like hardcore going down for parking on agricultural land, from a person living in a van, is likely to be see as the start of a slippery slope towards trying to get permission for a residential development which otherwise wouldn't be permitted.
I don't know what your long-term intentions are- only you know that- but you come across to me as someone who lives in a van, has bought some land and intends to park on it and live there, and try to live self-sufficiently. Whilst this may be a laudable aim, there is nevertheless a bunch of bureaucracy governing such things, and if you want to navigate that successfully, a clear and realistic plan is required.
Willow: the bare-root (bare root- not cut rod) Salix verminalis will establish in a boggy area in grassland without weed suppression, but they are slower to get away and then grow more slowly. The retailers recommend cutting the competing stuff down and then putting weed suppression down for the first could of years. (I've been experimenting with various planting on a damp Welsh hillside the past couple of years so I am speaking from recent experience. I have had some successes and a bunch of failures- which informed my final plans).
If you want to cut an acre or two of rough Welsh hillside grassland then (again from experience), I strongly recommend getting a big petrol-driven brushcutter-strimmer- a decent make like a Honda, biggest engine they do, you'll also need an arb mask, ear defenders and safety glasses under the arb mask- and get a set of ballistic boots if you want to use the blade rather than the line. It's still hard work but is doable for one person. (Or you could use a scythe- if you have or cna learn the skillset- but you would need a decent ditch blade, Scythes Cymru have a good range and do courses too).
GC
You're looking in the wrong place then. Here's a couple of links I posted earlier:
biofuel : https://westwaleswillows.co.uk/product/src-kit/ kit with 200 cuttings of fast growing hybrid plus sheets and pegs and manual for £230.
basketry selection: https://westwaleswillows.co.uk/product/justine3/ £9.95 for a bundle of 5 different basketry willow types, 2 of each, so £1 each.
You can get others, if you buy cuttings (for willow) or bare root it's MUCH cheaper than pot-grown (which is what I suspect your £35 was)- but need to be ordering and planting at the right time of year.
[There's other willow rod suppliers, a big one in Yorkshire and another big on in Leicestershire, I linked the producer in Wales as it's closer and the bigger bundles are collection only].
Now is the time to order bare root plants/trees or willow cuttings- to be delivered between Nov and Feb- they are lifted/cut and planted dormant. Willow rods should again be planted in winter when dormant, the links above estimating delivery from 6 Jan onwards.
GC
How many cuttings could I get from my mum's willow tree do you reckon? It is one of the curly ones but the shoots were straight as I recall. It is about 15 ft I would say. Could save a few bob, but if the amount I would get would be trivial better to squash the idea and look for commercial. No harm in getting what I can, not looked at it for this purpose when I was there so not sure of viability. Not 200 though I bet! Maybe a couple dozen.
How much would 200, which you linked, cover? Would that do most of the 2 acres? I am thinking I don't have to blanket the whole place with them and for starters just plant them on the obviously most boggy parts which is clear from the rushes. Although the bio fuel ones say pickup only it says they will still arrange delivery for £35. Seems reasonable enough and probably how much it would cost in fuel for the round trip if driving myself anyway.
Although they are specified as biofuel stock only would they still produce nice flowering trees if wanting to just leave them? The appeal is the fast growing nature over other specifically ornamental varieties. The picture doesn't give away much at all, just bare rods.
I don't intend to spend anything on expensive or indeed powered machinery. Even if it takes longer by hand I would prefer that. I do have a scythe which have not brought up yet.
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I would again suggest you have a more in depth think about what you want to achieve. Do you want a load of slow growing curly willows? If not then don't plant them!
Do you want to make baskets or do you think you could sell basket willow? If not then dont grow them. Etc.
I've planted various willows. Some of the fast growing biomass hybrids, mainly for a wind break and to take out the excess nitrogen in a part of our land. They may eventually produce some poor quality firewood.
I also grow goat willow cut from our own trees. That produces plants that flower, seed and being native to this area various insects feed on them.
As for planting density the sites that sell cuttings will tell you, it'll be thousands per acre not 100.
You are also likely to lose many to deer, rabbits etc. We have roe that not only nibble the shoots (so tall rods can get round that) but fray the rods which can kill young trees.
First of all, you need to understand what the different species of willow are used for.
Varieties of Salix viminalis, Salix alba, Salix purpurea and Salix triandra are the main ones used in basketry, but there are several more. Here's a useful summary of basketry willow species and varieties: https://www.yorkshirewillow.co.uk/willow-varieties
The hybrids for fuel are a particular variety based on Salix viminalis but developed for fast growth and wood development- when you buy them you also sign an undertaking not to propagate them yourself. (Fair enough).
Salix caprea (goat willow) and its varieties are typically the ornamental ones and the wood is much more brittle so it's not typically used for basketry. It's Salix caprea that has the best "pussy willow" catkins in spring, so chances are that's what's in your mam's garden. It will propagate- but don't assume it's suitable for basketry.
Planting depends on use. Basketry willows are classically planted in rows, half a metre between plants and 1.5 metres between rows. After a couple of years you can start to harvest for rods- either for basketry or further propagation. If you start out with a few dozen you can multiply them over time.
The smaller the cuttings, the cheaper they are- e.g. : https://www.yorkshirewillow-shop.co.uk/bundle-of-ten-cuttings-of-each-of-six-purpurea-varieties/ But if you get the small ones you really to put weed supression down. Here's an overview of planting: https://www.yorkshirewillow.co.uk/willow-cuttings
I suggest that if you want to grow willow, you spend a bit of time looking at the retailers.
Taking longer by hand: yeah it will. Good luck with that. Even mowing a couple of acres with a big strimmer is hard work. I have a scythe and can use it (very useful around the stream), but I mow with the strimmer. It's hard work even then. The grass and weeds (docks, thistles) very quickly get very high and tough, and as a landowner you have a legal responsibility to control "injurious weeds" on your land.
Anyway I have said enough now. Everything I have gone through for willow you can find easily with a bit of googling. I suggest you don't try to cover the whole 2 acres at once but do it bit at a time.
GC
Varieties of Salix viminalis, Salix alba, Salix purpurea and Salix triandra are the main ones used in basketry, but there are several more. Here's a useful summary of basketry willow species and varieties: https://www.yorkshirewillow.co.uk/willow-varieties
The hybrids for fuel are a particular variety based on Salix viminalis but developed for fast growth and wood development- when you buy them you also sign an undertaking not to propagate them yourself. (Fair enough).
Salix caprea (goat willow) and its varieties are typically the ornamental ones and the wood is much more brittle so it's not typically used for basketry. It's Salix caprea that has the best "pussy willow" catkins in spring, so chances are that's what's in your mam's garden. It will propagate- but don't assume it's suitable for basketry.
Planting depends on use. Basketry willows are classically planted in rows, half a metre between plants and 1.5 metres between rows. After a couple of years you can start to harvest for rods- either for basketry or further propagation. If you start out with a few dozen you can multiply them over time.
The smaller the cuttings, the cheaper they are- e.g. : https://www.yorkshirewillow-shop.co.uk/bundle-of-ten-cuttings-of-each-of-six-purpurea-varieties/ But if you get the small ones you really to put weed supression down. Here's an overview of planting: https://www.yorkshirewillow.co.uk/willow-cuttings
I suggest that if you want to grow willow, you spend a bit of time looking at the retailers.
Taking longer by hand: yeah it will. Good luck with that. Even mowing a couple of acres with a big strimmer is hard work. I have a scythe and can use it (very useful around the stream), but I mow with the strimmer. It's hard work even then. The grass and weeds (docks, thistles) very quickly get very high and tough, and as a landowner you have a legal responsibility to control "injurious weeds" on your land.
Anyway I have said enough now. Everything I have gone through for willow you can find easily with a bit of googling. I suggest you don't try to cover the whole 2 acres at once but do it bit at a time.
GC
This was a pleasant watch the other day.And that's a problem that has been destroying our natural wetlands for millennia. We are desperately short of boggy marsh believe it or not (I know that locally it can seem like the only habitat). Celebrate its biodiversity value; put in a few scrapes and ponds, and enjoy the unique wildlife you'll get.
We shouldn't be draining any more land for food production.
This isn't just my grumpy opinion but the view of conservationists in general and even the Nature Friendly Farmers group.
A natural alder/willow carr would be one way to go - building the natural habitat to increase biodiversity and species numbers - it would be the most valuable thing you could do with it
Very interesting for me!
The other thing I would say for boggy ground as an uneducated unknowlegable person that probably knows as much about land management as some others here is......
Swales?
Swales?
Fantastic!
We have used grant money to restore one 4 acre wet field into a wetland and construct another eight wildlife ponds this year
It is very satisfying; the wildlife arrives almost immediately - almost as though it's waiting for our work to be complete!
It seems paradoxical(?) to me this whole thread.
You've bought land but don't know what to do with it.
You've thought about growing veg but don't really eat veg.
You're vegan so don't want to graze animals.
You're thinking of growing willow to harvest but have it as a conservation area.
And all in the space of a day.
It seems to me that you need a real good think about what your end goal is and then work out the plan from there
I can't recommend enough that you find a permaculture course near you and do some learning.
I did the very first diploma permaculture course in the UK with George Sobel, and Patrick Whitefield at Darlington in the eighties.
Permaculture consultants will also travel to your site and advise what would be best for your site and ideas.
You seem a bit confused, with many ideas running about in your head, your enthusiasm is commendable, but you do need a clear plan for which, as I've stated before, you need to study the land for a while first, then work out your plan at the end of each season for that particular time. Eventually you will have a solid idea of where you are going and what to do when.
I did the very first diploma permaculture course in the UK with George Sobel, and Patrick Whitefield at Darlington in the eighties.
Permaculture consultants will also travel to your site and advise what would be best for your site and ideas.
You seem a bit confused, with many ideas running about in your head, your enthusiasm is commendable, but you do need a clear plan for which, as I've stated before, you need to study the land for a while first, then work out your plan at the end of each season for that particular time. Eventually you will have a solid idea of where you are going and what to do when.
I've done a bit of thinking on this. I don't know where you are in Wales but googling permaculture Wales, I've come up with a couple of places. One is Glasbren in sw Carmarthenshire where they take volunteers on a Thursday, no experience needed which might be a good free way in if they are not too far away, or if they'd let you park up and do a weeks volunteering.
Then have a look at hellocynefinfarm.org
A forest garden might be the way to go for you as you already have some woodland.
Permaculture association do a book on forest gardening which might be of help.
The courses can be expensive, but there is usualy a sliding scale, and you can often offset some of the cost by working in some way.
I did the full design course over 9 months, as I was very low waged I got a reduction then I gave free weekend accommodation to a chap that travelled up from Brighton to Devon each month, which gave me a further reduction, and also volunteered for catering, which helped out again, and made it possible (as I was only earning £10 each week more than being on the dole at the time.)
Worth finding something near you and see what's available, coursewise and as a volenteer. Everyone is always very friendly and helpful, so don't be shy.
Then have a look at hellocynefinfarm.org
A forest garden might be the way to go for you as you already have some woodland.
Permaculture association do a book on forest gardening which might be of help.
The courses can be expensive, but there is usualy a sliding scale, and you can often offset some of the cost by working in some way.
I did the full design course over 9 months, as I was very low waged I got a reduction then I gave free weekend accommodation to a chap that travelled up from Brighton to Devon each month, which gave me a further reduction, and also volunteered for catering, which helped out again, and made it possible (as I was only earning £10 each week more than being on the dole at the time.)
Worth finding something near you and see what's available, coursewise and as a volenteer. Everyone is always very friendly and helpful, so don't be shy.
The fun I guess is in discovering and learning. A few years back now, I decided I would take over a piece of land, and I would learn by doing how to convert it from derelict land to a woodland environment part of which spends time underwater. I have had to combat the farmer who thinks I should not be there, and a guy who thought he could just chop down trees because they are there. I may not have formal title to the land but I make sure everybody knows it is mine
I guess it is pretty rare to find a piece of land like that but the principle is that I am improving the land which the Council as owner really does not have the ability to do so they let me be. I would love to do a formal forestry course but I am probably too old. Apart from the farmer, who would probably like it for himself I would say I have the general support of the neighbours who appreciate what I have been doing.I've heard, but never actually researched, that getting unfinished trunks is actually very difficult. Nobody sells them, and for some reason, nobody has seen this gap in the market and thought to fill it. My source for this is a forestry guy I know who saw it on a gardening television program, they had to change the design because they couldn't get the wood.
I would try contacting tree surgeons locally and see whether you can get anything from them, if you want trees in the raw.
