What to do with partially boggy land?

[bushcraftlearner83729]

If you're new to growing veg, start small. You'll need a lot of compost and a few years before you get really good results. It will also be a learning curve as to what really wants to grow there. Don't underestimate the amount of time an input required. If you start with a few raised beds which you can keep on top of, you could get good results. Turn over too much land to growing food and you could easily put in several hundred hours and get £50 worth of vegetables for your efforts...

I am not exactly new. I worked on a market garden for 2+ years which grew and sold vege to the local community so have a good idea what is involved, having been there through a couple of on and off seasons.

Tbh, as I think about it more, since I hardly eat vege, apart from dried legumes and pulses I am thinking I could take or leave that. Woodland seems more interesting now since the willow suggestion was made. That and making it a conservation space.

The council like you if you make woodlands too don't they (in theory whether in practice is another matter). I read you can get subsidies and also there are better allowances for working woodlands.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

How are your neighbours using their lane?

Not sure what you mean? To drive on it?

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Hi @bushcraftlearner83729, welcome.

Thanks.

The locals say there's little springs all over the hillside and I believe it, we have a stream running through the property and smaller streams around the perimeter.

Sounds similar to mine now you mention it in that there seem small veins of water in different parts. Also in the middle lower part of the field, by the southern road edge, there is a bit where it actually comes out as a trickle and lots of rushes focused around that point.

The area was all just brash and small trees from what I have been told of locals and looking from information gathered from looking at historic google maps street view. It was cleared only in anticipation of being sold and what was covering the area has just been piled in a couple of piles in one corner at the bottom.

Having dug a fair bit out now in order to lay hardcore for access I can thankfully say mine does not have many stones at all. When I came here there was no access at all and only greeted with a boggy rushy mess in the open hedgeline.

It is good to have been able to clear enough and lay down the hardcore to get my vehicle in and off the roadside. I was skeptical it would provide traction with all the wet in parts but it has done a great job at that and providing stabilization.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Sound advice, but do consider that theft of poultry from uninhabited sites has become rife in the last decade or so, I know of several instances where huge amounts of labour and money have been put into raising table birds, or maintaining layers, only for them to disappear in the night.

I presume you don't have planning permission to live on the site, so security in this sense is an issue.

Equally you need to determine what you are likely to be allowed to do with the place- if you live in a van and the council won't let you place sheds for storage on your land, there is no point aiming to make a sideline in crafts or food which will require storage space. What is the designated use of the land? In many situations councils will be very wary of allowing anything which may be a foot on the rung to residential use, even if there is seemingly little connection.

The solicitor said it would be agricultural as the historic use. It had not been used for that in over a decade but was told it would 'default' to that.

Once I decide what I may want to do they should be in favour should I decide to make change of use to woodland no? I thought they like that but who knows with what they will assent to vs what they say they like on paper.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

carefully manured with chicken poo and whatever else could be found.

You are forgetting liberal use of raw human excrement as well. I watched a documentary lately and it stated the first thing you would notice if walking around in that period would be the stench as households would just pile it up outside ready for spreading to grow wheat and such.

 

[Paul_B]

If you try draining it where is the water going to go? I friend had a small farm and a rich Irish guy bought a larger farm next door for his daughter to play farming on and he paid for drainage on his land. It caused floodding that had never happened on my friends farm in the family history (he got it from his grandad and it could have gone back another generation so it). It was 100% due to the drainage of the nextdoor land into their field.

My friend got told to bugger off when he raised the issue and nothing would have happened without a legal fight they could not afford. In the end the west coast main line went through the field and the flooding went up to the embankment. Somehow network rail got to hear about it and they sorted it out.

Anyway, this digression is really that drainage is one thing you really need to understand the details I think such as where is the water going? Bogs are important and help slow down rainfall reaching lower land along with other more natural habitats. IF you drain the land you are sending it somewhere quicker than it might have before the work. Is it onto someone elses land resulting in loss of the use of it? You would be liable I think.

If it is a small holding type of situation where you want to get something out and maximise output then I think using the drier parts first with polytunnel type setup might be the better start than draining the wet parts.

Interestingly, there was a discovery tv programme about homesteads in the USA where some experts went round homesteads to solve issues. one was a very wet place so they dug two rice paddies by effectively digging two ponds when it was wet and then in the summer if kind of dried out a bit. This took a lot of the water from the rest of the land IIRC and they planned to get a cash crop of rice. It was of course southern USA in an area I think that is hot and wet for a large chunk of the year, hotter than Scotland for certain!! It was the only time the series did the rice thing and that was because the region actually had a rice farming thing going on anyway.

It will be interesting to hear what the OP ends up doing with the land. I think others have had some very good ideas and advice. There are very knowledgeable and experienced .people on here for the OP to learn from (not me though),

 

[Pattree]

Not sure what you mean? To drive on it?

Sorry, I have fat thumb problems.

I meant to type “….. their land” rather than “…….their lane” and you’ve answered that in my other post. You have bought a patch of hill pasture.

I can only echo other posts. Look at your land for a year before you do anything with it. That will also give you time to research what rights and responsibilities ownership of this patch involves. Are you allowed to live on it? Build a homestead on it? Build a lavatory system on it? What are your responsibilities regarding“receiving, taking and dispersing water” as my own deeds put it. Etc. etc.

A poly tunnel is a great idea if you are not sitting on a seasonal wind funnel.

Give yourself time to form a plan.

Edited to add:

“Agriculture” includes both animals and crops. Harvesting willow is probably OK without any further permissions as long as the roots don’t block neighbours drainage systems.
A building or permanent structure will certainly require permissions.

 

[Glow_worm]

“Agriculture” includes both animals and crops. Harvesting willow is probably OK without any further permissions as long as the roots don’t block neighbours drainage systems.
A building or permanent structure will certainly require permissions.

I believe permitted development rights don't apply to agricultural land in Wales on holdings of less than 5 hectares. Which in theory means planning permission is required for anything down to and including a polytunnel. A logical first step as an answer to your original question would be 'what am I legally allowed to do, and what further thinks am I likely to be granted permission to do?'.

@bushcraftlearner83729 It is likely you wouldn't have issues conserving the land as is, or turning it into-or preferably allowing it to turn itself into- woodland. But the Council won't like you as such, it won't improved chances of gaining residential planning permission for example.

 

[Broch]

Seems a bit paradoxical, living in a sustainable, self-sufficient, low-impact manner on a little patch is better than relying on intensive industrial farming and using big supermarkets which ship in from all over the world, no?

But, it's not low impact if you remove valuable habitat. The greatest threat to this overcrowded, overpopulated, island is loss of habitat and the consequent loss of species and biodiversity. Wetlands are one of the most threatened habitats. They are important for a whole host of reasons and you need to study their value to our ecosystem before making drastic change.

Whenever our group (Mont-HMG) is approached for advice on the use of land we always say to wait, monitor what is there over at least a year, then make any change with mitigation for harm (everything man does to a landscape has a negative often unintended result as well as any positives). Also, consider, within your available resources (money and labour), how you will manage that land over the next twenty years or so.

The planting of woodland is just a political knee jerk. Yes, ancient woodland holds the most species of any habitat, but replacing habitats that support a wide range of species with new woodland is actually detrimental. Some of the invertebrates and bryophytes that will be in your wetland will be more rare than a snow leopard, very important to the overall ecosystem, but not as 'pretty' as popular species that get public support.

 

[Tengu]

And now they are cutting down forest planted on `useless` heath, arent they?

 

[slowworm]

Not really interested in planting trees since they take decades to come to maturity don't they.

Depends what you want from a tree, I've planted hazel that's produced nuts in 4 years, and various fruit trees that have produced in less time.

I'd take a step back. I agree with Broch in looking carefully at the land before deciding what to do.

I would also have thought you would decide to drain the land because you wanted to do something rather than drain it and then find something.

Do you intend to live on the plot in future?

 

[British Red]

Thanks, but all the suggestions for growing seem like things that don't fill you up so I feel it is hardly worth the effort.

I stopped even bothering to buy onions and garlic lately due to the effort of peeling them not really being worth it for the moderate taste they add.

You & I clearly have very different taste buds . Onions, shallots & garlic being cornerstones of everything from sweet & sour chicken through decent fried rice to Pad Thai we grow a lot of them.

 

[Woody girl]

Humans seem to have an interest need to "improve " and manipulate land to their own ideas of what they think is "better."
With all the projected building on green sites that is proposed, aswell as the cutting down of ancient woodlands for a few minutes saved on a rail journey that has now been shelved, it is vitaly important that as many small unimproved areas are kept as they are for biodiversity.
Bees would be a good idea, especially if you could plant native local wildflowers that would have been prominent years ago. You can get different mixes for different conditions.
A dew pond, planted up with suitable marginals would be wonderful, and improve the area in a more natural way, only adding to the biodiversity.
Knowing your water table levels should be the start of your journey, and will dictate a lot of what you can do.
I guess sheep are the main "crop" where you are. There will be a reason for that for sure.

 

[Laurentius]

Plant willows, but whatever you do don't read that Algernon Blackwood story if you do.

 

[GreyCat]

You are forgetting liberal use of raw human excrement as well. I watched a documentary lately and it stated the first thing you would notice if walking around in that period would be the stench as households would just pile it up outside ready for spreading to grow wheat and such.

Yeah but there's also laws about not polluting watercourses....

..... you shouldn't use feces raw, need to aerobically compost feces properly first, then use on fruit trees rather than leafy veg. Urine is much easier to deal with. (There's a book about doing "humanure" properly, if I can find where I put my copy I can let you know the title).

I believe permitted development rights don't apply to agricultural land in Wales on holdings of less than 5 hectares. Which in theory means planning permission is required for anything down to and including a polytunnel. A logical first step as an answer to your original question would be 'what am I legally allowed to do, and what further thinks am I likely to be granted permission to do?'.

@bushcraftlearner83729 It is likely you wouldn't have issues conserving the land as is, or turning it into-or preferably allowing it to turn itself into- woodland. But the Council won't like you as such, it won't improved chances of gaining residential planning permission for example.

This

Planning is the key issue. The local authority will have a map with designated use (which is how I know all my plot is "garden" and as such I can put polytunnel and shed up).

I suggest finding out about planning requirements before putting hard-core down, as if you need planning to create a parking space and don't get it, the council will make you remove it. And if they think for one moment that you will live in a van on it, I suspect a dim view will be taken.

To be brutally honest, if you put hard-core down, then live in your van on the plot, I suspect you will draw the wrong sort of attention and get into bother with the authorities.

What's your outline plan for the next 3 years? If you wanted to join an ecocommunity like Lammas you'd need to be able to explain (to the planning authority) how in 3 years you would transition to making your main living from the land, so it's not an unreasonable thing to ask/consider.

GC

 

[haptalaon]

I want to second Broch - wetlands are one of the most threatened habitats in the isles, and one of the most important. Near me they are doing wetland restoration projects because they capture carbon so well.

I don't like industrial agriculture, but IMO if it's happening then it likely is more low-impact to buy vegetables from land already in use than convert additional land. The big issue of industrial agriculture is habitat destruction, so I don't see the *environmental* benefit of taking out a wetland and putting in a field.

(of course I see the emotional appeal of working your own land etc, but that's separate from eco considerations)

Is it an option to sell on your land and buy something better suited to agriculture?

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

I believe permitted development rights don't apply to agricultural land in Wales on holdings of less than 5 hectares. Which in theory means planning permission is required for anything down to and including a polytunnel. A logical first step as an answer to your original question would be 'what am I legally allowed to do, and what further thinks am I likely to be granted permission to do?'.

@bushcraftlearner83729 It is likely you wouldn't have issues conserving the land as is, or turning it into-or preferably allowing it to turn itself into- woodland. But the Council won't like you as such, it won't improved chances of gaining residential planning permission for example.

There are grants available for turning agriculture back into woodland so they should be supportive of it.

Forestry grants | GOV.WALES

We have several grants which provide funding towards woodland creation and development.

www.gov.wales

I don't see what any of it has to do with residential planning permission so not sure why you bring that up in this context. You say they won't like me 'as such' but if they are giving grants for doing just what I am intending to it seems they would 'like me' or as much as one can hope.

Yes it is true that less than 5 you don't have rights on agricultural except to do up what was already historically there.

For woodland you get a lot more leeway. Regardless of size of the woodland you are allowed PD rights to build a woodland cabin and also tracks if they are reasonable for the carrying out of duties of the woodland.

Woodlands and planning legislation

Woodland for sale throughout the UK, including woods for sale in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Advice on buying a wood, as well woodland activities, flora and fauna, conservation and other woodlandy topics.

www.woodlands.co.uk

As I am not too bothered about veges and the benefits of willow on my boggy land have been laid out I think I might go down this route.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Depends what you want from a tree, I've planted hazel that's produced nuts in 4 years, and various fruit trees that have produced in less time.

Well I have had no hard and fast rules and my thoughts are evolving with new information.

I don't 'require' anything from trees except, having given it some thought, the nice feeling of being in a woodland.

That is, the cover and general feel so I don't need to extract anything from them in particular, just enjoy them.

If they provided wood to use that would be a bonus but I could do without that and thinking I am going to buy wood from elsewhere to craft with rather than thinking of the woodland as a source to be culled.

Do you intend to live on the plot in future?

No, I have just assumed that to be an impossibility from the start given the council's strict rules on the matter. Not something that is coming into my calculations.

 

[Glow_worm]

I don't see what any of it has to do with residential planning permission so not sure why you bring that up in this context. You say they won't like me 'as such' but if they are giving grants for doing just what I am intending to it seems they would 'like me' or as much as one can hope.

It was more a response to your question as to whether the council would like 'you' for converting agricultural land to forestry- I see now you meant 'would the council like the concept'.

 

[bushcraftlearner83729]

Plant willows, but whatever you do don't read that Algernon Blackwood story if you do.

I looked it up and they are extremely expensive! £35 for just one is the cheapest I saw so far!

I have read that they can grow from shoots and my mum has a small one in front of her house. I say small, so I am not sure how many cuttings I would get from it to make a whole, albeit small, woodland from it.

By the way, in preparation for planting, does the land have to be cleared of the long grass and brambles and other rubbish or will the trees just out compete the other stuff? Would be great if I didn't have to clear beforehand as that will be a lot of work but will do it if it will make a big difference to the chances the trees will have.