Waterproof Jacket (again)

[Bonzo Frog]

Ok here we go, this has been covered before I know, but I'm in the market for a new waterproof jacket. Having read many comments or the pros and cons of various materials etc I've come to the conclusion that there is no right or wrong sort just what suits your own rerquirements. I believe there are a few of you guys out there who have a Norrona Recon Jacket, any comments on the pros and cons of this particular piece of kit?
I've had various Gore Tex jackets before - some good, some bad but there are no retailers in this country I've been able to find except Woodlore (unless you know different).
It doesn't need to be fireproof but it does need to keep me dry and warmish and fairly hardwearing, it's been a tad wet just lately and if we get the winter they seem to be promising......
If anybody has any suggestions as an alternative I'd be happy to hear about them.

Waiting in anticipation...

Bonzo

 

[addyb]

One word: VENTILE

(If you can afford it)

I used to be a Gore-Tex shopper, not any longer. I won't go off and write a huge post about why should purchase a Ventile anorak as your next shell layer, that would take too long. Bonzo, do a forum search for Ventile, there's about a million and a half threads on that topic on this board alone. It's bombroof, lasts just about forever, and won't suddenly break down when you least expect it to. All it needs is a little TLC over the years, and if you really want something special, go purchase a dutch-army gore-tex jacket liner.

And that's all he wrote.

Adam

 

[Bonzo Frog]

Cheers for the info Adam, I've been talking to a mate of mine on the local MRT and he uses Paramo. Far more comfortable than Gore Tex he reckons and very tough, as for being waterproof he says there's no such thing when you've spent 10 hours on the fells on a winters night!

Bonzo

 

[Razorstrop]

I can't reccommend Keelas Munro jacket as a winter waterproof/ hill jacket.
The only jacket I know of that WILL come through Bonzos 10 hours in driving rain on a hill.
Used by mountain rescue teams and me. I also have the salopettes and beleive me, those two combined you can live in them for days and be dry dry dry.

Only drawback-----it is a bit heavy so you have to get your layering right.

Loving Keela stuff
Mr Strop

 

[JM]

I have a trilaminate goretex (PTFE) parka and overpant set, surplus German army in flecktarn camo, that I paid the expensive amount of 30 Euro in total from an ebay german surplus. Hard wearing gear, and indeed a good bargain for that sort of price.

Just need to remove the flag, and ready to go... They are just a shell, well water proof, breath not to badly, the outer layer is resistant, all sewings are taped, two pockets on the parka, pants can be put on with shoes on.

But for the price, who cares if you destroy it in 2 month (which I doubt)?

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Original-BW-GORE...categoryZ40822QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Not the best, but good bargain for the price.

 

[addyb]

No, I completely agree with you on that statement, Bonzo.

No jacket will keep you completely dry after hours and hours in driving rain. My Dad quoted it nicely a few years ago when I couldn't figure out why I was getting soaked in Gore-Tex, he said:

"When the weather's like this *referring to a Autumn hike* you'll get soaked no matter what. The name of the game is to not get as soaked as everyone else."

That's stuck with me, and it always will be.

I guess the reason I'm so passionate about Ventile is because of how incredibly simple it is. Yes, it can be very slow to dry, and it'll only keep you dry for 3-4 hours in the rain. But so what, I don't like to go out in the rain. And if you take care of it, it just keeps going and going and going and.....you get the idea.

Paramo is pertex/pile, isn't it? I'm still not sold on that type of garment yet. Pertex is nylon, is it not? Nylon is not naturally a wet-weather fabric, and it is quite reliant on DWR treatments. And when the DWR wears out, the fabric lets in water.

That's the biggest problem with waterproof breathable fabrics. Because they are either a coating or laminate heat treated to a face fabric (polyester or nylon) the breathability of the garment is completely reliant on the DWR. Once the water stops beading and the face fabric soaks in, your body vapour can't escape anymore, and if you're working hard, you'll end up getting soaked.

But with Ventile, it doesn't matter if it's soaked through, it'll still breathe. I do understand that that is the purpose with pertex/pile, if you're wet, the pile wicks away the moisture, dispersing it to the outer climate. Although a plus of both fabrics is that if they get holes in them, they can easily be sewn up and still be reasonably weatherproof. (No laminate or coating will ever do that)

What I would love to hear from fellow posters is how waterproof pertex/pile really is, especially under really trying conditions.

Cheers,

Adam

 

[led]

Just to clarify that Paramo's gear isn't pile and pertex (like Buffalo, Montane etc). They use Nikwax treatment along with a 'pump liner' to keep you dry. They work well for me.

 

[soa_uk]

What I would love to hear from fellow posters is how waterproof pertex/pile really is, especially under really trying conditions.

To quote from here " None of the Buffalo products are intended to be waterproof, they are proofed to repel water ..., but they will all keep the wearer warm even when the garment is wet"

and
"Pertex 6 is windproof to 45-50mph (72-80kph) and resists rainfall to the same rate of 1/2 inch per hour (12.7 mm per hour)."

I wear, occasionally, a Buffalo Special 6 Shirt.

I live in Cromarty, East of the Highlands.
We don't get as much rain as Manchester (where I used to live).

It's fair breezy though.

I've walked in driving rain with about a Force 6-7 behind it, and not noticed any penetration.

I've also got back to the house looking like a snowman when the sleets piled up on it.

Problem I have is that it can get *too* warm. I thought about getting a P/P jacket/Parka to go over it (need to be specially made, as I'm EFB size). I've been out in the Special 6 at -5, with a stiff breeze, and never worried (bar I forgot my gloves, and had to have my hands in the the central pocket - which meant I *did* notice the odd draught). Can't see's I need to, having had this for a year or two.


My wife's been amused when she can see bare torso, when I'm toiling up a hill at around 0-2C. I've never felt damp or clammy in it.

They say, though I haven't tried it, that you can walk into a loch with P/P gear on, walk out, go up a Munro and in 15 minutes you'll be dry.

I doubt Ventile would do that.

 

[mal]

What are these like

Description:

This new GORETEX® garment with its fast wicking PERTEX® lining will help keep you dry, warm, comfortable, even safe and fully functioning. Foul weather? Just wear the Goretex® liner underneath your Outer Jacket. Yet when not needed it is compact enough to be carried in a SAS smock pocket! Designed as a button-in liner for the Dutch Forces’ Parka, SASS have added front buttons, so can be worn underneath any type of smock/jacket as an independant clothing layer. The Dutch Forces wanted weather protection without the weight, bulk, shine, rustle and easily damaged outer jacket, and the problems of a permanently sewn-in liner. New unissued, supplied to SASS in original manufacturer’s boxes.

Sizes:

Available only in chest sizes 102cm to 112cm, standard and long length

Prices:

Goretex® Stashaway Smock Liners £24.99

 

[george]

Paramo

I live in the NW Highlands and make a living outdoors.

I have used just about everything going. I use paramo or other nikwax analogy stuff on the hills in the winter quite simply because it does what it says on the box!

soa is right about pertex/pile - it's not meant to be waterproof - it's mean to keep you warm no matter how wet you get. It's the best stuff I've found for canoeing. If you do fall in, climb back in the boat and paddle hard for a bit to get warmed up - twenty minutes or so and you'll forget you had been swimming.

George

 

[addyb]

Hmm.....15 minutes is very fast to dry. But 1/2 inch of rainfall in an hour isn't really a whole lot, I don't think.

I have, (sorry, HAD) a soft-shell jacket, cut close to the body so it could be worn under a climbing harness. It was 3 play windproof/breathable laminate. The outer layer was an extremely tightly woven polyester microfibre, which was water repellent on it's own without a treatment due to polyester's inherent properties. Then there was a polyurethane windproof membrane, and the inner layer of the jacket was polar fleece. I believe this to be quite similar to a what you've outlined.

The jacket was great, and I still have it sitting in my garage, 'cept it de-laminated all over the front left pocket, so it's useless. I loved that jacket, don't get me wrong. Except for a few things. (At least, these are my experiences)

1) It may not read true, but yes, my Ventile is far more waterproof. In driving rain, I'm able to stay dryER in it, than in my softshell.

2) It dried fast, amazingly fast. Now, I've treated my Ventile anorak with "storm proofer plus" and it dries reasonably fast now. Not near the rate of my soft-shell, but still much quicker than an old cotton sweatshirt or a Norgie shirt. So I'm quite satisfied.

3) The Ventile's warmer, much warmer. Which is funny, because it's 100% cotton.

Anyway, I still have a place for my Gore-Tex (well, Entrant GII-XT) and my soft shell I'd still be wearing if it hadn't have delaminated.

I mean, it's always a tradeoff, isn't it? The more breathable you get, the less waterproof. The quicker drying you get, the less waterproof you get. The more waterproof you get, the less breathable you get.

It's amusing, because all these gear manufacturers try to pass off their new products with biased tests and market them as the be all end all fabric for every outdoor situation. Sadly, this is not true. Some fabrics excell in the wind, some in the driving rain, some in the cold, some in the heat.

In the end, all you have is money.

Cheers,

Adam

 

[soa_uk]

Hmm.....15 minutes is very fast to dry. But 1/2 inch of rainfall in an hour isn't really a whole lot, I don't think.

Let's see.
From here we learn that Western Highlands gets 3000mm per year; East Coast about 800mm.

3m is about 117inches a year or about 0.32 inches per day. [Which is, of course 0.013 inches per hour]

Typically, measurable rainfall (an amount of 0.2 mm or more) occurs on over 250 days per year over much of the Highlands so perhaps call that
117/250 = 0.47 inches per day or 0.02 inches per hour.

Let's look worst case?

Maximum in a day (09-09 UTC): 238 mm at Sloy Main Adit, Loch Lomond on 17 January 1974 - that's 9.4 inches in 12 hours - or about 0.78 inches per hour.

To me?
1/2 inch per hour is *a lot*!

Rest of your points are well taken

 

[JonnyP]

I suppose it comes down to, do you want to get wet by condensation or by the rain. I own a £260 Mountain Equipment gortex xcr mountain jacket and after a trip up and down Ben Cruachan in tipical Scottish weather, I was just as soaked as everyone else, even though the dwr was working fine. If I was wearing ventile I would of been just as soaked (if not more) and a jacket weighing a lot and taking a long time to dry. If I was wearing Paramo or Buffalo, I would of been too hot (me thinks) and just as wet (me thinks). For bushcraft, get ventile, for winter,get Buffalo, for Scotland, get wet. Everyone has their own favorites and none of them are perfect for every situation, think about what you want the jacket for and which way you want to get wet as to what system to go for. As for my advise, you do not need to spend £260 on a jacket.................Jon

 

[Bonzo Frog]

Hi, thanks to all the imput from everybody. After much head scratching and wallet searching I think that I'll be going for a Paramo jacket, I have one of their fleeces and a pair of trousers which have done me proud so that's good sign.
For £200 I can get a decent waterproof £100 cheaper that a Recon jacket so that'll please the wife.

Cheers

Bonzo

 

[JonnyP]

Let us know how you get on with it..................Jon

 

[Bonzo Frog]

Just a quick update on my Paramo Alta jacket. I 've had it about three weeks now and worn it during the cold spell and the wind and rain and it's been excellent.
No complaints and it's as good as the other Paramo stuff I have.
It's also quite a warm jacket, but for early December up here in The Lakes 10 out of 10.

Bonzo

 

[JonnyP]

Hi Bonzo.............Just wondering, how often do Paramo recommend re-treating the fabric.................Jon

 

[Andy]

It says to retreat as soon as water stops beeding off it

 

[fast but dim]

i'm surprised noone has mentioned wax cotton: i've got a paramo jacket, but prefer my drizabone parker or my dads 22 yr old barbour if i'm out and about locally: theyre bombproof, repairable,comfortable, silent and enable you to blend into the background without looking like a poacher (i am a poacher lol).
If i'm walking in the lakes i use my paramo or buffalo, but for knocking aroud the woods theyre too fragile.Ventile would be my first choice, but its too dear.
I know my batbour will still be around in 10 yrs, how many jackets can be worn for 30 yrs and stil be fashionable enought to wear in the rain?

 

[chrisvreugd]

hi,
waxed cotton, can you do that by yourself???
can you wax cotton (heavyarmycotton) or do you need a special fabric treatment for that....
if you can treat it yourself, than is that the cheapest option I think.
I would love to own a ventile or other expensive jackets, but as a student a don't realy have te money for that kind a gear

greengreets