Ventile vs modern fabrics?

[TAHAWK]

I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:

THISTLES
&
GORSE

Once a Goretex membrane is punctured by the very fine and very penetrating spines of thistles/gorse, it leaks. That's it! End of story!
. . .

IMO, really impervious ponchos (PVC sheet) are the most effective waterproofs. The poncho has vastly better ventilation than any closed jacket design, which more than compensates for any lack of breathability in the fabric. On the debit side, ponchos aren't suited to several activities: they'd be useless for sailing; serious climbing or any activity that required much use of hands/arms above shoulder level. They can be positively dangerous in very high winds. Burnt Ash

There are reportedly thorns in other parts of the world.

I also use a poncho when the activity allows, but (except for inexpensive all-plastic models) the poncho, like Gore-Tex, relies on a coating over some material. If the outer layer is tough, it resists punctures. If not . . .

The "hanging" Gore-Tex liner noted above by yowee resists thorns pretty well. But it still hardly "breathes" in the rain, is expensive, and, unlike the poncho, can't be rigged as shelter.

 

[Burnt Ash]

I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:

THISTLES
&
GORSE

Once a Goretex membrane is punctured by the very fine and very penetrating spines of thistles/gorse, it leaks. That's it! End of story!
. . .

IMO, really impervious ponchos (PVC sheet) are the most effective waterproofs. The poncho has vastly better ventilation than any closed jacket design, which more than compensates for any lack of breathability in the fabric. On the debit side, ponchos aren't suited to several activities: they'd be useless for sailing; serious climbing or any activity that required much use of hands/arms above shoulder level. They can be positively dangerous in very high winds. Burnt Ash

There are reportedly thorns in other parts of the world.

I also use a poncho when the activity allows, but (except for inexpensive all-plastic models) the poncho, like Gore-Tex, relies on a coating over some material. If the outer layer is tough, it resists punctures. If not . . .

The "hanging" Gore-Tex liner noted above by yowee resists thorns pretty well. But it still hardly "breathes" in the rain, is expensive, and, unlike the poncho, can't be rigged as shelter.

I don't doubt that there are 'thorns' in other parts of the world, but thistle and gorse have very fine needles that penetrate most fabrics (any that I'd care to wear, anyway). My point is this: if you have to protect the Goretex membrane with a layer(s) that will resists gorse and thistle, you have probably lost all/any avantage of breathability you started out with from the Goretex.

I've found this with breathable waders (I'm a fly fishing instructor). They are wonderful, super, fabulous ... until you sit down on a little thistle when your'e having your lunch sandwich. That's it: curtains for £300 super-de-luxe breathable waders. Wet bottom for the rest of the week (and ever after).

Burnt Ash

 

[TAHAWK]

I don't doubt that there are 'thorns' in other parts of the world, but thistle and gorse have very fine needles that penetrate most fabrics (any that I'd care to wear, anyway). My point is this: if you have to protect the Goretex membrane with a layer(s) that will resists gorse and thistle, you have probably lost all/any avantage of breathability you started out with from the Goretex.Burnt Ash

Burnt Ash, having agreed with your conclusion, I should have been more precise.

Nettles of several species are found everywhere in North America except for extreme deserts. Gorse is found up and down both coasts of North and South America and is especially bad in Californa, where it is regarded as the No. 1 noxious weed problem. Gorse is also found widely in New Zealand, Australia, Denmark and Germany. However, I have no doubt whatsoever that Gorse and nettles are worse in the UK than anywhere else on Earth. I give you pride of place.

American cactus, however, also have very fine spines indeed, and I absolutely insist that we have more cactus that have you in the Storied Isles. So there!

 

[Adi007]

Not to mention briars, blackthorns and a good few lengths of barbed wire!!!

One touch on the coat by any of those and you can kiss bye-bye to a few hundred quid!

I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:

THISTLES
&
GORSE

 

[Ogri the trog]

Hey wow, its not often I can rekindle a five year old thread, but I'm going to....

Last weekend I had the pleasure of camping on the Sennybridge ranges and being outdoors for much of the weekend during a significant amount of rainfall. THroughout the weekend I used both goretex and ventile outer layers and I think my findings might be beneficial to this thread.
My goretex is quite old, probably nearer 20 years since it was issued and I can't say it has ever performed as well as any manufacturer would claim.
The ventile is a home sewn smock which is a "Work in progress".

The best combination by far was to use the ventile under the GTX which left me as the only dry staff member after a full day outdoors with all that Mid Wales rain could throw at me.... big smug grin on returning to our farm accomodation!
and I recon it was this good because -
1) the goretex was able to shrug off the worst of the wind-blown droplets.
2) which in turn allowed the ventile to do its job without having to work too hard.

The ventile is fast becoming my favourite foul weather accessory and I have aome other garments in the planning stage - but I recon that if it was not for the outer layer, I would have been looking to get an indoor job!

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[Nagual]

Hey wow, its not often I can rekindle a five year old thread, but I'm going to....

Last weekend I had the pleasure of camping on the Sennybridge ranges and being outdoors for much of the weekend during a significant amount of rainfall. THroughout the weekend I used both goretex and ventile outer layers and I think my findings might be beneficial to this thread.
My goretex is quite old, probably nearer 20 years since it was issued and I can't say it has ever performed as well as any manufacturer would claim.
The ventile is a home sewn smock which is a "Work in progress".

The best combination by far was to use the ventile under the GTX which left me as the only dry staff member after a full day outdoors with all that Mid Wales rain could throw at me.... big smug grin on returning to our farm accomodation!
and I recon it was this good because -
1) the goretex was able to shrug off the worst of the wind-blown droplets.
2) which in turn allowed the ventile to do its job without having to work too hard.

The ventile is fast becoming my favourite foul weather accessory and I have aome other garments in the planning stage - but I recon that if it was not for the outer layer, I would have been looking to get an indoor job!

ATB

Ogri the trog

Isn't that like using 2 umbrellas, when you should really only need one? Although on a more practical note, wouldn't that be rather warm?

 

[Nonsuch]

I have swithered around this subject for ages, and defected from Goretex a couple of years ago via various Ventile jackets and then a heavy investment in Paramo.

My affection for Paramo went completely out of the window on a recent very wet canoe multi-day trip when it left me cold and soaked through after three hours and took days to dry. No thanks. I have also found that the mountain pull-on that is supposed to go underneath gets soaking and stays that way as well.

I'm still fond of Ventile because it looks and feels cool and has lots of heritage, but having had about 10 different jackets in my time I would say that :
- it's quite tough BUT it does rip (eg on barbed wire ALL the ones i have used for rough shooting are ripped)
- it doesn't last as long as a good Goretex jacket ! It wears and frays easily (eg at the cuffs and where it is puckered by a drawcord) and goes scruffy (may not be a problem). I reckon after a year of regular wear your Ventile will be looking tatty
- in single layer you will get decidedly damp (but no more)
- in double layer you stay dry a long time but it goes stiff as a board and really heavy
- it isn't really a success as trousers so you still need Goretex overtrousers !

By contrast, I've never melted a hole in Gortex jacket or trousers sitting or standing by a fire and never got dripping wet with condensation inside one either. Of course I don't go near buckthorns and gorse in it, but Ventile doesn't like those either and I reach for the good old Barbour for those jobs.

I've tried hanging Goretex liners inside a Ventile jacket and been very disappointed. Loads of condensation and the Ventile layer on the outside still goes stiff and wet.

I'm not convinced either by these new hybrid garments where you have Ventile on the outside and then Paramo Analogy pump liners. Paramo owners will tell you the pump liner gets pretty smelly and needs reproofing anyway. Ventile doesn't really like being washed much so I see this as a poor combination.

So although I still have my Ventile, my jacket of choice for really evil rain is a heavy duty Goretex jacket and overtrousers, with a ventile jacket for wearing as an all-round utility / comfort layer until the rain gets heavy. When out hill-walking in serious weather the Ventile stays at home completely. WL Gore is getting my money again.

All just my opinions of course, no more valid than anyone else's, but the result of expensive mistakes I would wish others to avoid !
NS

 

[leon-1]

I have been using ventile a long time and as far as I am concerned there is no comparison to Gore-Tex.

One is a weather proof the other is a region specific waterproof.

Goretex is designed for climatic ranges (mountain jackets and walking jackets have different levels of breathability and hydrostatic head). They "do" have a working life that ranges between 2 and 4 years before they start to delaminate. They are not robust, they rip on barbed wire as well, but a lot easier and are subject to burns (which I can tell you if you get molten gore-tex on your skin you'll not want to experience it again). They are harder to repair in the field. They do require a lot of care and attention when it comes to cleaning.

Ventile is cotton, it can be washed normally, it's not region specific as far as breathability or hydrostatic head is concerned. It can be easily repaired in the field. It doesn't melt, but can burn (the big misnoma that people choose ventile because it's flame retardent is rubbish, it's because it doesn't melt leaving people with horrendous burns as it glues itself to your skin). The temperature that Ventile starts to burn at is far greater than where Gore-Tex starts to melt. It can be treated like dirt and you never have to worry about it de-laminating. You do not have to worry about some idiot sticking it in a washing machine with normal washing powder (the major reason for reduction of breathability in all goretex jackets). Its working life is far longer than that of Gore-Tex. It doesn't rustle like a crisp bag.

I am not totally against Gore-Tex, I have owned a number of Gore-Tex Jackets (some of which cost £400), but I have also owned triple point ceramic jackets and jackets made with innovation7 materials. They were all pretty much the same (I have to admit I do prefer the triple point ceramic side of life, but that's a bummer)

If you want the highest level of breathability that provides a high level of wind resistance and water resilience then you look at ventile. If not and you want waterproofing get a bin liner as they are far more waterproof than Goretex and Ventile.

 

[Toddy]

I reckon a loose-ish fitting wax cotton jacket, with a pure wool lining and linen at the collar and cuffs, beats them all.
It's tough, it doesn't spark, it's windproof, rainproof, comfortable, if loose it breathes and sweat escapes like the Inuit parka with movement ventilation. Wool makes it warm in Winter and when you can open the jacket to air, it dries out quickly.
It depends crucially on the cut of the garment though, and if the pockets are badly sited they may end up as hand ponds
It's not light and in icy conditions it can be kind of stiff, but it's still a brilliant outdoor jacket in a damp, cool UK.

cheers,
Toddu

 

[BorderReiver]

And where would one obtain such a jacket Toddy?

 

[BorderReiver]

- it's quite tough BUT it does rip (eg on barbed wire ALL the ones i have used for rough shooting are ripped)

But when you sew it up it's still waterproof.

Tear a Goretex jacket and that's your waterproofness (is that word?) gone.

 

[treadlightly]

I reckon a loose-ish fitting wax cotton jacket, with a pure wool lining and linen at the collar and cuffs, beats them all.
It's tough, it doesn't spark, it's windproof, rainproof, comfortable, if loose it breathes and sweat escapes like the Inuit parka with movement ventilation. Wool makes it warm in Winter and when you can open the jacket to air, it dries out quickly.
It depends crucially on the cut of the garment though, and if the pockets are badly sited they may end up as hand ponds
It's not light and in icy conditions it can be kind of stiff, but it's still a brilliant outdoor jacket in a damp, cool UK.

cheers,
Toddu

I have a 20 year old wax jacket, not one of the famous brands but a cheap one. It has done me proud and I recently rewaxed it so that it is fully waterproof.

It is bombproof and very practical, but it does not breathe well especially since I put the new wax on. Granted it has a lining of "mixed fibres" rather than wool but even allowing for opening the zip and letting air circulate it soon gets very hot and clammy if I walk any distance in it.

 

[dogwood]

I reckon a loose-ish fitting wax cotton jacket, with a pure wool lining and linen at the collar and cuffs, beats them all.

I completely agree. And if the waxed cotton is right, the weight isn't too bad either.

But I must confess, a lot of the time when backpacking I just take a loose, knee length wool smock that I've made (imagine a longhunter jacket in wool) and a poncho.

Since wool still keeps you warm when wet, I don't worry about light showers (and wool's not bad at shedding light showers anyway!) and in heavy downpours I pull on the poncho.

Honestly, wool can handle virtually any outdoor need...

Besides, I've made my wool smock large enough to be part of my sleep system too, so it serves me well...

 

[treadlightly]

I completely agree. And if the waxed cotton is right, the weight isn't too bad either.

But I must confess, a lot of the time when backpacking I just take a loose, knee length wool smock that I've made (imagine a longhunter jacket in wool) and a poncho.

Since wool still keeps you warm when wet, I don't worry about light showers (and wool's not bad at shedding light showers anyway!) and in heavy downpours I pull on the poncho.

Honestly, wool can handle virtually any outdoor need...

Besides, I've made my wool smock large enough to be part of my sleep system too, so it serves me well...

Totally agree about wool's abilities...

 

[John Fenna]

I have been using ventile a long time and as far as I am concerned there is no comparison to Gore-Tex.

One is a weather proof the other is a region specific waterproof.

Goretex is designed for climatic ranges (mountain jackets and walking jackets have different levels of breathability and hydrostatic head). They "do" have a working life that ranges between 2 and 4 years before they start to delaminate. They are not robust, they rip on barbed wire as well, but a lot easier and are subject to burns (which I can tell you if you get molten gore-tex on your skin you'll not want to experience it again). They are harder to repair in the field. They do require a lot of care and attention when it comes to cleaning.

Ventile is cotton, it can be washed normally, it's not region specific as far as breathability or hydrostatic head is concerned. It can be easily repaired in the field. It doesn't melt, but can burn (the big misnoma that people choose ventile because it's flame retardent is rubbish, it's because it doesn't melt leaving people with horrendous burns as it glues itself to your skin). The temperature that Ventile starts to burn at is far greater than where Gore-Tex starts to melt. It can be treated like dirt and you never have to worry about it de-laminating. You do not have to worry about some idiot sticking it in a washing machine with normal washing powder (the major reason for reduction of breathability in all goretex jackets). Its working life is far longer than that of Gore-Tex. It doesn't rustle like a crisp bag.

I am not totally against Gore-Tex, I have owned a number of Gore-Tex Jackets (some of which cost £400), but I have also owned triple point ceramic jackets and jackets made with innovation7 materials. They were all pretty much the same (I have to admit I do prefer the triple point ceramic side of life, but that's a bummer)

If you want the highest level of breathability that provides a high level of wind resistance and water resilience then you look at ventile. If not and you want waterproofing get a bin liner as they are far more waterproof than Goretex and Ventile.

Excellently put!
I love Ventile and hate crisp packet waterproofs. I too am not anti Gore etc but for most conditions Ventile is my first choice by far!

 

[Waterworx]

Just something else to add to the list

Montane

Supposed to wick away moisture pretty quick.

 

[johnboy]

As a counter point my experience with Ventile is less than rosy...

Before we headed out to live here in NZ I plumped for a single layer ventile garment cut in an SAS style Smock.. I suppose this style of jacket is pretty common among Bushcrafters from what I read.

I'd say it was absolutely the worst weatherproof jacket I've ever used bar none and that would include good old Neoprene 'centre' waterproofs and the Army reversible Arctic Water proof Jacket. Once the DWR treatment wore off the fabric it soaked up water like a sponge wet out and then became heavy stiff and let in water. I used it with woollen under layers and it was cold damp and pretty nasty to wear. I used it above and below the bushline in close bush and open I'd have to say my opinion of it is that as a waterproof layer it was rubbish. It was windproof and it did breathe well but it didn't keep me dry which is sort of the point of a waterproof jacket I think.. I also used it in the summer as a sort of bush shirt with the sleeves rolled up and in typically humid NZ bush it was horrid to wear sweaty and damp.... It's also reasonably fragile tears and wears easily and fades rapidly

My view based on my own experience of Ventile is the fabric is a bit over hyped on forums and the like. Reading how good it was certainly influenced my decision to buy it.



I have had really good service out of 2 goretex jackets over the last few years a Berghaus Lightning and Berghaus Alpine Extrem I've used them a lot and they haven't delaminated they re not full of holes they dont leak like a sieve and generally they keep me dry. I dont really look after them like the crown jewels.

I also wonder how many people have actually been 'shrink wrapped' in a melting nylon waterproof sitting by a fire?? I've not heard of any at all in 25 years of being in the outdoors... So perhaps it doesn't happen that often at all? But it makes good copy when your extolling the virtues of a cotton based 'waterproof' fabric... How many people have been wet and cold on the hill and have suffered with mild or full hypothermia wearing cotton based clothing might be an interesting statistic.

I'm not saying nylon breathable waterproofs are perfect because they're not.
I guess I am saying that Ventile in my experience is worse.

 

[dogwood]

I also wonder how many people have actually been 'shrink wrapped' in a melting nylon waterproof sitting by a fire?? I've not heard of any at all in 25 years of being in the outdoors...

I agree with this -- I feel the popping embers/fire issue is vastly overwrought and largely (but not entirely) imaginary.

Plus, even if you get a tiny hole in a goretex (or whatever) jacket, it's hardly ruined.

All of my outdoors clothes have patches from rips and tears -- it's what happens when you use gear. Mending your gear just means you've lived a good outdoors life! When I see someone with patched clothes in the bush, I know they've spent lots of time outdoors.

Moreover, because of fire restrictions in many places I backpack (Sierras, etc.) I almost never have a camp fire anyway and stick with my hobo stove.

 

[rik_uk3]

I agree with this -- I feel the popping embers/fire issue is vastly overwrought and largely (but not entirely) imaginary.

Plus, even if you get a tiny hole in a goretex (or whatever) jacket, it's hardly ruined.

All of my outdoors clothes have patches from rips and tears -- it's what happens when you use gear. Mending your gear just means you've lived a good outdoors life! When I see someone with patched clothes in the bush, I know they've spent lots of time outdoors.

Moreover, because of fire restrictions in many places I backpack (Sierras, etc.) I almost never have a camp fire anyway and stick with my hobo stove.

Spot on DW, all this talk of melting jackets and holes all over the place has fast become an urban myth IMHO.

 

[Toddy]

Well I have seen someone shrink wrapped in melted plastic. Nylon trousers, and if he hadn't been rolled on the ground and smothered by his friends heaven knows how bad it would have been. The results as they are have left the skin of his lower left leg looking like someone stirred it with a stick and that's after three goes of skin grafts. After thirty years I can still hear him screaming, and smell the stench too, so yes, maybe I am guilty of pushing non flaring fabrics on folks. I'm not going to apologise for it, it is a very real risk and I'm not prepared to say otherwise. On the main though this is a community of competent adults, all very capable of making their own decisions.

Mostly I agree that a few spark holes aren't the end of the world. and my own 'working' clothes are goretex and triple point ceramic. But they cost me 100's of pounds and last maybe five years if I'm lucky. They look progressively more and more beat up too. One of my wax jackets is now 20 years old, cost under £70 and is still going strong.

HWMBLT is still wearing a 30 year old ventile jacket for woodland walks. Double skinned, faded in places, shaped to fit him, silent when he's on the move, comfy as it gets.

I suspect that for most of us clothing will always be a compromise. Goretex tears, so do the finer grades of ventile. Goretex will not last well, good ventile will. Goretex will spark holes, ventile not so much. Goretex does breathe, so does Ventile. Goretex can be overwhelmed by the weather and so can Ventile..........Y'know the ideal garment for this game is really a big woolly duffle coat

cheers,
Toddy