Veganism

[monkey_pork]

Yeah, I think it'd be doable. Not on the fly tho', not in the UK, unless of course you can digest cellulose in which case it'd be a piece of cake.

Supported by agriculture, and planned carefully it'd work ok. You'd be on grain of some sort a fair bit tho, oats probably ... There is a good range of greens to be had, but some planting schemes would save a lot of time and energy.

I can see it working a treat further towards the equator tho', as the relative seasonal stability would be useful, plus you'd have a longer fruit season.

I've been vegan for 20+ years and have had no problems at all.

If it ever comes to the time ... then eating the long pig doesn't worry me in the slightest. I have no issues with it whatsoever.

 

[Greg]

Any others here vegan?
And also what are your views on it? is it possible to be vegan and survive in the bush? is it possible or is veganism a choice only avilable cause of the society we/I live in today.....

Each to their own I say, If you choose not to eat meat or dairy products that is your personal choice.
I am a solid omnivore again my personal choice.
My brother-in-law is a veggie most of the time purely because he doesn't like the texture of meat but he will happily eat a pepperoni pizza.
Vegganism is a modern day peoples choice, it probably, but don't quote me on this, started in the sixties when radicalism raised its head, animal rights etc.
Nowadays people don't have to worry about eating the right stuff with essential dietary vitamins and minerals because you can just pop to the shop and buy the dietary supplements in capsule form.
Although every veggan / veggie I know eat very healthy fresh veg every day any way!
If your happy with your life and what you eat then who's business is it!

On the subject of being a veggan and living in the outdoors I think it is very doable, because lets face it plantlife is more abundant on our beautiful planet than animal life, and most of our vitamins and minerals come from plants as long as you know what to eat you should be fine.

 

[torjusg]

If it ever comes to the time ... then eating the long pig doesn't worry me in the slightest. I have no issues with it whatsoever.

Why the problems with the regular pig then...?

 

[bambodoggy]

As you already know we are not carnivors we are primates. As Tadpole said primates are mostly vegetarian.

And also live in trees and are covered in fur I believe there is a theory that when we started to eat meat our brains started to grow faster and that's how humans developed and evolved into what we are today.....it is also suggested that our bodies have changed with evolution and we are now "supposed" to be omnivors (doesn't mean we have to be so no offence meant to anybody). I like that, it's a happy and versitile medium and gave us the best chances of a meal in the days before you could buy what you wanted and had to actually go out and hunt/gather it yourself. To me eating everything and anything is one of the things that has made the human race so successful.

You sure plants don't feel pain? I thought for sure that was screams I heard everytime I throw them into a hot frying pan with a little olive oil, butter and seasoning.

I believe they have done studdies and proved now that plants feel pain and in fact cry out when cut, crushed or snapped. Certainly plants and tree all show obvious signs of distress when abused or neglected and after periods of abuse and/or neglect...die.
Just coz you can't hear them crying with your own ears doesn't mean they aren't

Sorry, a little off topic I'm affraid

Bam.

 

[twisted firestarter]

'Vegan' is a really awkward label and one I feel very uncomfortable with. To be a true vegan to the letter you must not wear any leather or wool clothes, you can't eat honey or drink wine (most of it contains animal finings to clear the sediment). even a simple apple from the supermarket is not safe, many are covered with animal wax to keep them shiny, some tea bags are glued with fish glue, I could go on! In short it is a moral minefield for the purist. I have eaten a 99.9% vegan diet for the last 12 years and been veggie for over 20. Maybe twice a year I will crave fish and eat it, the rest of the time I don't eat eggs, dairy or anything animal derived. When I'm out bushcrafting I always take enough food to supplement what I can find including Marmite which contains plenty of B12 vitamins. I really don't have a problem with what other people eat and am fully supportive and respectful of people who poach and hunt animals for food, it demonstrates that they are fully aware of what goes on their plate and the process it has gone through to get there. With regards bushcraft in the UK on a vegan diet, I think it would be extremely difficult in the long term. It wouldn't take me long before I got a hazel fishing pole together

 

[Tadpole]

And also live in trees and are covered in fur I believe there is a theory that when we started to eat meat our brains started to grow faster and that's how humans developed and evolved into what we are today.....it is also suggested that our bodies have changed with evolution and we are now "supposed" to be omnivors (doesn't mean we have to be so no offence meant to anybody).

If increased meat consumption was an indicator of brain power would not it be true that as a race we would be getting smarter and not dumber.

The fossil evidence allows us to trace the gradual increase in brain size over the past two or two and a half million years with some degree of precision. The average brain size of Homo habilis, who lived approximately 2 million years ago, was 750 cc. Homo erectus shows this transition most dramatically; indicating that most of the evolutionary increase in brain size took place during the life of this species. Early Homo erectus in Africa (from about 1.7 to 1 million years ago) averaged 900 cc in brain size, but later Homo erectus specimens from .5 million years ago average 1100-1200 cc, which falls within the range of the brain size of modern humans. The earliest or archaic forms of Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong dates to 300,000-400,000 years ago and averages over 1200 cc. The Neanderthal skull, second from right, has a brain size of 1500 cc, which is actually larger than the brains of most modern humans. The average for Homo sapiens sapiens, is around 1400 cc

The human brain size has fallen 11% in the last 35,000 years--with the bulk of that decrease (8%) coming in the last 10,000 years.

 

[bambodoggy]

'Vegan' is a really awkward label and one I feel very uncomfortable with. To be a true vegan to the letter you must not wear any leather or wool clothes, you can't eat honey or drink wine (most of it contains animal finings to clear the sediment). even a simple apple from the supermarket is not safe, many are covered with animal wax to keep them shiny, some tea bags are glued with fish glue, I could go on! In short it is a moral minefield for the purist. I have eaten a 99.9% vegan diet for the last 12 years and been veggie for over 20. Maybe twice a year I will crave fish and eat it, the rest of the time I don't eat eggs, dairy or anything animal derived. When I'm out bushcrafting I always take enough food to supplement what I can find including Marmite which contains plenty of B12 vitamins. I really don't have a problem with what other people eat and am fully supportive and respectful of people who poach and hunt animals for food, it demonstrates that they are fully aware of what goes on their plate and the process it has gone through to get there. With regards bushcraft in the UK on a vegan diet, I think it would be extremely difficult in the long term. It wouldn't take me long before I got a hazel fishing pole together

That's a very honest and interesting post Mate, thanks

I was just having a look at a vegan site after reading (and adding too) this thread and thought others might find it interesting too:

http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qaplants.htm

Also, I have a question for vegans if I may.......

The not eating or using of animal products for ethical reasons I can understand and although I do not follow that idea myself I really couldn't care less what others eat and certainly wouldn't presume to tell you what you should eat or do. I can also understand that you do not use leather and other animal by-products and the reasons why, so my question is this: where do you guys stand on road kill and natural death sources of food and products?
If you found a dead deer by the side of the road (legal issues aside here as this is hyperthetical) would you feel that you shouldn't make use of the skin or would you feel that this was truely a gift and out of respect for the animal not be passed up?

I ask because I know in Tibet a lot of the people will not harm a living thing due to their religion, however, once the animal has lived it's life and died naturaly then it is both eaten and used for i's by-products.

 

[bambodoggy]

If increased meat consumption was an indicator of brain power would not it be true that as a race we would be getting smarter and not dumber. .

I didn't say it was my theory, just that there was one and I hate that american use of the word dumb, to me a dumb person is somebody who is unble to talk and not somebody who is stupid.

The Neanderthal skull, second from right, has a brain size of 1500 cc, which is actually larger than the brains of most modern humans. The average for Homo sapiens sapiens, is around 1400 cc

The human brain size has fallen 11% in the last 35,000 years--with the bulk of that decrease (8%) coming in the last 10,000 years.

Any chance you could give us the links to where you copy and paste your info from so that we can get a balanced view of where this info is coming from? I can't even see the Neanderthal skull second from the right in yoru post I'm not saying it's not correct info but if we had the links then we'd be able to judge for ourselves.

Many thanks,

Bam.

 

[Tadpole]

I didn't say it was my theory, just that there was one and I hate that american use of the word dumb, to me a dumb person is somebody who is unble to talk and not somebody who is stupid.

Dumb: Meaning "foolish, ignorant" was used in England from around 1323 CE your meaning did not come in to use until sometime in the early 1830s. the term for someone who can not speak is "Mute" from the latin mutus meaning silent.

Any chance you could give us the links to where you copy and paste your info from so that we can get a balanced view of where this info is coming from? I can't even see the Neanderthal skull second from the right in yoru post I'm not saying it's not correct info but if we had the links then we'd be able to judge for ourselves.

Many thanks,

Bam.

knock yourself out

 

[silvergirl]

First, continuing Off Topic . This link to the radio 4 site was a series of proggrames on the origins of humans. i found it quite fascinating, especially where one of the proffesors argues that Neanderthals did not disappear because Homo sapiens were better. They were absorbed as we breed with them. This in turn perhaps made us more adaptable .


Back on topic, sort of .

I'm not Vegan or even vegitairian, If I'm honest it's because I'm too lazy.
When I was Nine, my best friend (who was 13 or 14) announced she was going vegan. We had many great discussions :swordfigh about the morality of using animals for our own benifit. At the time my aim in life was to walk into to the woods with nothing but the clothes I was wearing and survive comfortably for an extended/indefinite period of time. (some things don't change ).

As part of that I accepted as most 'primative' cultures do, I would need to be able to make use of animal products and I felt it was nessecary for the human race to retain the ability to live off the land in a non structured way (now I'm a doom munger and can't wait til we leave the planet alone ). I also strongly belived that if an animal was dead (road kill etc) then you should make every possible use of that animal, meat, bones and hide.

Her point was that when people use an animal, they get to like having that animal product and very soon feel they can't do without. for instance, Whaling. Before technology was availible people used whales carcasses that washed up on beaches and found that the meat, blubber etc was very useful. When techonlogy caught up many species were hunted nearly to extinction. In the pursuit of cheap easily obtainable products.
Same went for farming, ecconomics grew to such a force that people no longer lived with their animals, they factory farmed them and subjected them to appalling treatment in the name of efficency.

I ended up agreeing with her on most points about the rights and wrongs of hunting, farming etc. But could not get around the fact, that if someting dies it should be used to its fullest potential. Everyone said she would never manage to stick it out, but though I haven't heard from her in many years I fully belive she stuck to her principles. I am so glad that a such a young age, I had a friend who was interested in how the world worked and actually thought for herself .

And as I said i'm not even vegitarian, but I hardly ever eat meat, and if I do, I want to know where it came from and how it was treated and killed. Everyone who eats meat should, I think be prepared to kill and dress it themselves, It would put a lot of folk off these days, I think.

If anyone wants to eat me when I'm gone I'd be happy, but I haven't always treated myself that well .

 

[locum76]

a quick question here for the vegans, do you guys eat honey? (not bothered either way just curious.)

 

[PhoneticHalo]

a quick question here for the vegans, do you guys eat honey? (not bothered either way just curious.)

nope, we do not.

 

[madrussian]

Maybe it would help, especially people like me, if someone would define exactly what is a vengan and/or veganism? Thanks.

 

[PhoneticHalo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan

Veganism (also known as strict vegetarianism or pure vegetarianism), as defined by the Vegan Society, is "a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practical—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

 

[madrussian]

"a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practical—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

I see. You know I really could have fun thinking up all kinds of ways to counter such a philosophy, you know what I mean. But I don't want to offend. So I will bite my tongue and resist the urge.

 

[bambodoggy]

Dumb: Meaning "foolish, ignorant" was used in England from around 1323 CE your meaning did not come in to use until sometime in the early 1830s. the term for someone who can not speak is "Mute" from the latin mutus meaning silent.

There you go...we learn something new every day I still see it as incorrect though, just the way I was brought up I guess

I just looked up "dumb" in the Wikipedia dictionary and it lists it as meaning mute first and later "The senses of stupid, unintellectual, and pointless were established under the influence of the German word dumm", so again without your furnishing us with the links to where you gleen your infomation from we are all unable to make an infomed judgement on it. (Oh and the Wikipeadia Dictionary also says "From the Old English word dumb, meaning silent, mute, unable to speak" and if you click "Old English", it says that old english was spoken in Britain from about 400 to 1100 AD so I guess my meaning is the original ).

Many thanks for the link on brain size, I'll have a look at it later

Cheers

Bam.

(EDIT: Read that link you gave me and by reading it in full it seems to support the idea I mentioned in the first place with Neanderthals being a bit of a blip in the trend with their massive noggins. It's interesting how a context can change when we have the whole story isn't it )

 

[PhoneticHalo]

I see. You know I really could have fun thinking up all kinds of ways to counter such a philosophy, you know what I mean. But I don't want to offend. So I will bite my tongue and resist the urge.

Hmmmm ok? feel free to post them, wont offend me.

 

[Tadpole]

Read that link you gave me and by reading it in full it seems to support the idea I mentioned in the first place with Neanderthals being a bit of a blip in the trend with their massive noggins.

Well done successfully miss the point, a talent so rarely demonstrated and so skilfully as well. My post was that human brains should be much bigger (what with all the meat we eat today) but they aren’t, they are getting smaller.

In a paper called “The Expensive Tissue Hypothesis” (Aiello and Wheeler, 1995; Wheeler and Aiello, 1996)
Aiello and Wheeler worked out that whilst meat eating played a part in the evolution of Homo sapiens, it was more likely the practices of cooking food that was the true springboard.

It was cooking of all foods that reduced the amount of energy needed for the body to process the food, primates have a much longer gut than humans. Food of low digestibility requires relatively large guts with elaborated fermenting chambers (stomach and/or small intestine) while food of high digestibility (such as sugary fruits, protein and oil rich seeds and animal material) requires relatively smaller guts characterised by simple stomachs and proportionately long small intestines.
Cooking neutralizes toxins and increases digestibility (of starch, protein, beta-carotene), and might make the digestion of cooked food less "expensive" in metabolic energy terms--thereby freeing up energy for increased brain development specialisation.
In a paper on “Evolutionary perspectives on human nutrition: the influence of brain and body size on diet and metabolism” Leonard WR, Robertson ML concluded that
“While human cranial capacity tripled over the 2.5 million years after H. habilis first appeared, this trend has recently reversed. Since peaking among Cro Magnons and other humans living during the Late Paleolithic, cranial capacity has fallen off about 11%. (Ruff, 1997) This diminution has paralleled a decrease in consumption of animal foods and, consequently, a diminished dietary intake of preformed long chain PUFA, the building blocks necessary for formation of brain tissue.”

I just looked up "dumb" in the Wikipedia dictionary and it lists it as meaning mute first and later

Funny you should say that I did the very same thing and guess what , I found the order in which the words were listed very interesting Not surprisingly my real dictionary lists dumb as meaning stupid first also (Oxford English dictionary 1983) as does google if you care to search for the definition.
The root of the word dumb comes from a proto-Indo-European word “dheubh” meaning confusion, stupefaction, dizziness. Then into Old High German word “thumb” some time between 500CE and 1100CE. This word later evolved in to mean both uses, i.e. stupid and mute. The modern use of the word to mean “unable to speak” didn’t come into practice until much later (some time in 1823) and that came from the OG word “dumm”

It's interesting how a context can change when we have the whole story isn't it )

To understand the context you have to read the posts. You might find reading the post helps

 

[Toddy]

Interesting reading ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for all the information

It would be appreciated if we could return to the topic though.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Tadpole]

Interesting reading ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for all the information

It would be appreciated if we could return to the topic though.

cheers,
Toddy

My post does touch on the topic at hand, as I think it shows that since humankind learnt to cook its food, it began to evolve past the point where it needed to eat massive amounts of animal flesh.
Humans started out as vegetarian primates, evolved into opportunist omnivores, eating carrion, bugs, insects, rodents etc, evolved into meat eating omnivores.

Learning to cook food freed humankind from the need to bulk up our diet with raw meat, we are evolving all the time, and now we are evolving past the need to eat massive amounts of meat.