It wasn't a dig, I can't find a source and I would like to read more about it.
Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism
- Thread starter Janne
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Great contribution to the thread Rich and lots of good info.
Perhaps we're concentrating too much on cows and we should be shifting our focus on pigs. Highly sentient, very clever animals who are treated like filth. I say we release them all, when they turn into boar, and we must hunt them 'naturally' ie without any instruments. Just our 'claws'. And eat the meat raw with our gigantic flesh-ripping jaws. I'm sure we wouldn't get sick or anything!
The thing about 'I wouldn't force it on anyone else' thing... I used to think the same thing. Admittedly it's not a great way to make friends. Most people go on the defence immediately because when they hear someone is vegan. Honestly I've had people call me out from the other side of the dinner table when they hear me ask the waitress 'do you have any vegan options?'
They can't handle it. They see it as an attack on their person. They have heard someone saying 'I don't kill animals but all these people do and therefore I'm better than they are'. But in reality vegans aren't necessarily better people, but yes obviously we have the moral high ground on this one separate issue, simply because we don't need to kill animals for the selfish sake of our tastebuds. As we've seen in this thread, people are extremely sensitive to even an utterance of a comparison between what we pay people to do for animals for us (electric shocked/bolt into brain/hung upside down/throat slit/living in horrific conditions) and people they know. Responses like that speak volumes. As does the fact that most of us feel queasy seeing slaughter house footage, where all of our animals end up regardless of how they were kept.
Personally I don't see any benefit to religious people trying to convert people from atheist to their religion. I don't see any good reason for doing it, and if that person stays atheist or turns to a particular religion, there isn't any real world change. The change would be a personal one, perhaps for the better.
But eating meat, dairy and eggs has real world victims who can feel pain but cannot speak out. I see it as speaking out for them. If you wanted people to stop caging and killing and eating millions of dogs every day, would you just stop doing it yourself and then not say a word to anyone? Wouldn't you try to spread the word about the alternative in an effort to decrease the number of dogs being murdered?
If you also want to feel better about yourself, lose a little bit of weight, get healthier, and not contribute to one of the leading causes of climate change (if that's a concern for you), generally reduce your carbon footprint on this earth, and not contribute to the mass-slaughter of sentient animals, then it's an extremely easy choice to make. Go compassionate, and go vegan.
The thing I've found is if people me why I'm not eating meat etc then they immediately go into defensive mode themselves and their barriers are too high to have a normal conversation. I constantly think that there is a complete lack of honesty when it comes to ecological issues that is never mentioned and that is that we have a huge population that is growing. no one in he media or politics is prepared to say that there are too many people in the world and that a lot of the issues we have would be helped by reducing the population massively.
Turning pigs loose? Yes, some idiots have done things like that. Turned boar loose, turned minks loose. Released Main lobsters loose.
Those fools I have a word for: Eco terrorists. Should be in jail, in the same cell as the responsible for releasing industrial waste untreated into the rivers and seas.
The suffering those idiots caused to the animals, and damage to Nature was immense.
You mention the(horrible) future animals face. Electric shocked/bolt into brain/hung upside down/throat slit/living in horrific conditions.
Ihope you understand that once the electricity has made the animal unconcious, they do not feel anything? Ever had an operation? Same thing. Unconcious.
Bolt - having seen cows, pigs and a couple of horses being killed this way I would love to go the same way.
Hung upside down and throat slit? Yes, painless. Most are brain dead by then.
Living in hortific conditions - that is why we ourselves are spending our money on meat that has been raised ethically. More and more prople are doing it.
But remember one point. The animals do not know any difference.
not unless they have a genetic memory.
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You missed my query about if vegans take vaccines and medication in the other thread?
As you are one of our Vegans, and open about it, you might find that wuestion interesting?
As you are one of our Vegans, and open about it, you might find that wuestion interesting?
It's another discussion for another day, but strangely it almost seems that you feel stronger about those who cause suffering to animals by releasing them into the wild than you do about farmers you pay who do it day-in day-out. Could that be because...they're vegan? And you resent them for it?
You 'hope' I understand, do you!? As you say - most of the animals are unconscious by then, but these places are run by humans who are constantly trying to run their operation faster to make more profit, and cutting corners always means more mistakes. Yes, let's say the majority are dead by then. My point wasn't that the animals can feel it, just that it happens. It's happening right now. In fact every second If it happened to humans in their billions there would be uproar, if it happened to dogs in their billions there would be uproar, but if it happens to pigs, cows, fish, pigs, turkeys, ducks, geese, chickens, sheep, goats, rabbits, birds, horses or any other species we haven't anthropomorphised, then we'll actively celebrate it.
Here's a short clip. No blood, no apparent harm to animals. So why is it so saddening?
I don't understand what you mean. Please clarify?
If we're talking about missing queries, I think you've only acknowledged let alone responded to half of my points in this thread and the other. As a vegan I'm used to it though. I can't find your question. If it's about vaccinations and medicines containing animal products, then my reply is this.
We all have the right to not merely survive, but thrive. Veganism is about MINIMISING harm to animals where possible. Non-vegans often criticise vegans for picking berries because they're killing bugs, or using medication because they contain animal products. But it's just a defence mechanism. A diversion tactic. They pretend to care about the moral values of vegans because they feel like their own moral values are under attack.
Well, I am a vegan then, as I try hard to minimize the harm, and increase the well being of the animals?
( by buying meats ethically raised and minimising the meat eating)
Yes, you are correct, it is about vaccines and farmaceuticals
Vaccines are as you know produced by infecting ‘sentient’ organisms ( fertilized eggs) and meds are extensively tested on a range of animals to test the function, effectness and safety for us.
Frankly speaking, I find the Vegan community being on the offensive, not the omnivores.
You implied it yourself in a recent post. Onmivores do not have several organisations trying to convert vegans.
( by buying meats ethically raised and minimising the meat eating)
Yes, you are correct, it is about vaccines and farmaceuticals
Vaccines are as you know produced by infecting ‘sentient’ organisms ( fertilized eggs) and meds are extensively tested on a range of animals to test the function, effectness and safety for us.
Frankly speaking, I find the Vegan community being on the offensive, not the omnivores.
You implied it yourself in a recent post. Onmivores do not have several organisations trying to convert vegans.
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Eh OK then I'll provide you with a definition of veganism since you can't understand it. This is from Vegan Society.
Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
No matter how the animals are treated, is it ethical to kill an innocent, sentient being, who doesn't want to die?
I also notice that you've ignored lots of my previous post as usual.
If an animal is born into factory captivity, they do not have any memories of fields, sky, sun. All they know is cages, being packed tightly tigether and being fed.
They do not miss anything. They do not duffer. They are content and happy, as long as they ate well watered and well fed. If they get sick they get medications, if badly hurt they get put down.
They would only feel the loss of their natural habitat and free life if they had an inbuilt memory of the ‘free outside’.
I am still against this type of husbandry but that is not the point.
They do not miss anything. They do not duffer. They are content and happy, as long as they ate well watered and well fed. If they get sick they get medications, if badly hurt they get put down.
They would only feel the loss of their natural habitat and free life if they had an inbuilt memory of the ‘free outside’.
I am still against this type of husbandry but that is not the point.
Not ignored, do not have time to answer them all!
I am excluding as far as possible and practicable all forms of exploitation and cruelty! That is my point!!!
You too, your way!
I am following my organisms needs, what it was made for. Causing as little harm as possible.
So basically the only difference between you and somebody like me is that you do not eat animalia products
But you are accepting that lives are killed, animals are harmed in producing medication you benefit from, just like me.
Am I correct?
Btw, not only meds. You get fillings in your teeth, maybe a crown, maybe an implant.
All animal developed and researched.
Need an operation? Animal researched and developed. New joint?
Ditto.
Unfortunately our lives are intimately linked to our use (and unfortunately abuse) of animals.
'If a child is born into factory captivity, they do not have any memories of fields, sky, sun. All they know is cages, being packed tightly tigether and being fed.
They do not miss anything. They do not duffer. They are content and happy, as long as they ate well watered and well fed. If they get sick they get medications, if badly hurt they get put down.'
Hopefully you felt what I did when I read that. You have brainwashed yourself. If you think that chickens, choking and suffocating on faeces and urine and ammonia, rife with disease and stress, without any natural light, barely enough room to move, having their beaks cut off without anaesthetic and living in such a stressed and horrific condition, are 'happy and content', then you are much further removed from any ounce of animal compassion than I thought.
Do you honestly think sick chickens get to go to the vet? Do you think they are given a lethal injection if they're badly hurt due to their squalid conditions? Do you think this kind of treatment is justified to innocent beings, just because it's what they've always known? What animals do you apply this logic to? What animals don't you apply this logic to?
You say you're against this kind of husbandry, but yet you don't seem to understand why it's cruel to the animals. So on what grounds are you against it?
So? Are you implying that this is a terrible thing? So how do you survive then? What alternative are you using? Only foraged plant medicines?
I need a crown on my tooth otherwise I'll likely feel pain and infection. Are there any alternatives, that are practically within my financial budget? If there were then I would utilise it. If not, I'm going to have to be realistic, put on my big boy trousers and do it. Same as medicine, new joints, anything else.
But it's not rocket science - the same logic doesn't apply to eating meat. Humans don't need to eat any animal products to survive and be healthy. So therefore, it's not necessary to buy animal products. I don't know how I can make that clearer.
Vegans aren't under any illusions here; they realise that they need to survive and that in order to do so we are going to be harming animals. May I suggest that it's you who doesn't understand the concept of veganism. Again, it's about minimising, not cutting out altogether, the use of animals. The latter is physically impossible today. But if you have a CHOICE, wouldn't you want to choose to reduce your harm to animals? Vegans do just that. You have a choice whether you want to consume animal flesh or productions. You can minimise your exploitation to animals by choosing not to participate in that, to no negative effect.
I'll put it another way.
I don't take my medicine = I get ill and possibly die.
I don't eat meat = I suffer no ill effects because of it.
So one is a choice and the other isn't. I can't make it any simpler.
I think you know very well what I mean, but are twisting it....
Yes, animal testing is horrible. I am not implying anything, it is a fact. But we need it. I personally support it 100%
My question, which you seem to avoid, is, as you, who are rabidly opposed to “murdering” sentient (as defined today) creatures, how do you YOU justify yourself being treated with vaccines and medications?
As you fully know the facts?
Edit; you answered it a little bit in the post after.
So you do put your health and well being before animals.
Btw, you do not need a filling or a crown. You can live a good life without one tooth in your mouth. Or being completely without teeth. People did before modern dentistry.
You do not need 99% of the medication you are taking. You are increasing the risk of dying, and maybe shortening your overall life by a very short time.
You do not need a new joint.
You called killing of animals for food ‘murder’, so us meat eaters are by default ‘murderers’
Sadly, by your definition, you are one too.
You just cloak it .
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You're really obsessing over this, aren't you?
Why not look in the mirror? Again this is a common non-vegan tactic. A diversion of attention because of insecurities. Of course I put my health and well-being before animals. What's that got to do with veganism?
Are you really pointing your finger at me? Are you saying that morally I should just eat air and water and perish? What about you? What gives you the right to ask me such a question? What things could you do in your own life that would minimise the exploitation of animals? Perhaps you couldn't pay someone to kill them for you? Wouldn't that be a great start?
How am I avoiding anything? Your question is how can I morally defend using medicine that contain animal products. That's funny coming from a meat-eater, but I have already answered your question. Here it is again: it's not within the realms of practicality for me to refuse medicine that I need to survive or be healthy. Eating animal products is well within that range of practicality.
Now I've answered it 3 times. Perhaps the problem is that you just don't understand my answer?
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That's silly and I don't even want to acknowledge it but OK, so then we're all murderers. The difference is that you murder out of choice when you don't have to. So why can't you murder less and become less of a murderer?
You have the choice of a lesser of two evils, so why don't you choose the option that is less evil, rather than attacking someone else who already has made that choice?
I am not attacking you.
I too have chosen the lesser of the two evils.
Big meat eater vs small meat eater.
As I want to follow what nature designed me for I still eat Animalia.
I too have chosen the lesser of the two evils.
Big meat eater vs small meat eater.
As I want to follow what nature designed me for I still eat Animalia.
Yes if you want to contribute to the unnecessary exploitation and killing of animals for the mere pleasure of taste.
But you don't have to in order to be strong and healthy.
Therefore you also have the choice to not use any animal products that you don't need to.
Vegan choose not to.
Evolution, designed, intended, meh. It has no bearing on the ethics of eating meat.
You don't have to do it and it's even healthier.
I have never killed any animals for the sole pleasure of killing. What I have shot or fished were all eaten.
( I am against trophy hunting if the meat is thrown away).
Killing for the sole pleasure of eating - yes, absolutely.
Once I was employed with the job of training people in maiming and killing other people, so to preserve our way if life. And expected to maim and kill.
Would I do it today? Yes.
Most vegans chose to accept killing of animals too for their benefits.
Not as much as an omnivore though, which I respect you for.
( I am against trophy hunting if the meat is thrown away).
Killing for the sole pleasure of eating - yes, absolutely.
Once I was employed with the job of training people in maiming and killing other people, so to preserve our way if life. And expected to maim and kill.
Would I do it today? Yes.
Most vegans chose to accept killing of animals too for their benefits.
Not as much as an omnivore though, which I respect you for.
Maybe its just me but (some) people who eat meat and diary and (most) vegans seems to have a religious idiolitary and make a lifestyle choice into a belief system which draws battle lines and choses sides. Every one seems to agree that causing animals suffering and pain can't be good and i think on a bushcraft site we are mire aware of most about low vs high natural impact. Maybe it will take a David Attenborough blue planet moment as it did with plastic to change most people's minds, after all we can argue the nuances of how intelligent a male chick is but would any of us be happy to throw them alive into a grinder? (as it's the most cost effective way of gettig rid of them). to me minimising our own impact on the planet and our negative impact on individuals and animals suffering has to be a good way to go. Does that mean that I am better than the bloke in Greg's eating a bacon and sausage sarnie? No of course not - I can be a right #### at times but I can be resposible for my own impact and actions.
