Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

Feb 24, 2009
47
23
Virginia
Prophecy,

As to the ethics of vegetarianism, it's pretty complicated.

You say that there is no moral defence for eating meat, but that's not right. There are plenty. They share a rejection of cruelty as the only or primary force behind an ethical decision.

But before I even go there, I think it's worth mentioning to everyone that Prophecy is correct about animal sentience, at least as it's defined and discussed in the relevant literature in zoology and animal behaviour.

http://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/2/4/628/htm

From the abstract of that article: "Animal sentience refers to the ability of animals to experience pleasurable states such as joy, and aversive states such as pain and fear (Broom, D.M. Dis. Aquat. Org. 2007, 75, 99–108)." that seems to be the accepted definition--I may be wrong, but that's what I found.

The literature--I won't cite it all here, everyone can Google--generally accepts that vertebrates (and perhaps some invertebrates, too) experience pain and fear, at least in so far as we can identify these states in their behaviours. From what I've read, "joy" is a tough sell, but "pain and fear" seem to be present in mammals, fish, and even things like crayfish.

In some sense, then, Prophecy is on solid footing. But to move from "cows feel pain and fear" to "therefore, we should not kill and eat them" isn't a simple process, nor is it ethically clear or required. Here are just three examples:

I have a friend, Amy. She is an ardent utilitarian, and her ethics are based on reducing pain and maximising pleasure. For Amy, if the pain a cow feels at slaughter is less than the pleasure experienced by the people who eat it, that eating is justified. This is a simple--maybe too simple--example of utilitarian calculus, but an argument that can certainly be made in defence of eating meat.

I have another friend, Bob. Bob believes that a purposeful god made the world an everything in it, and that he directed man to tame and make use of these resources. For Bob, there is a "hierarchy of being" and a difference in kind between animals and human beings. For him, animals were made for our purposes, and while we shouldn't cause them unnecessary cruelty, raising and slaughtering them in ways that minimise their suffering is perfectly acceptable. This sort of deontological ethic is pretty common, I think.

My third friend, Chris, embraces virtue ethics and has a list of virtues he must practice to lead a good life. Among these virtues, he includes practices like hunting and fishing, without which his life would be diminished. For Chris, these develop critical aspects of his being--self-sufficiency, patience, awareness of nature and our place in it as a predatory species, physical toughness, etc.--allowing him to flourish. That they also cause cruelty to animals, or at least don't eliminate cruelty entirely, is simply not as significant as their role in allowing him to live the good life.

It's not that hard to come up with a much longer list than this. In these cases, the positions I've outlined here are widely held, seriously respected ethical positions applied to this particular question. Not all utilitarians, deontologists, or virtue ethicists would agree with the position I've put forward, but in each case, they could--which is all that matters to demonstrate that the ethics are more complicated than you suggest. I imagine that most people who eat meat, and who've thought about it, agree with some aspects of each of these three positions: they get a great deal of pleasure from eating meat and find that this pleasure is a component of a life they want to lead, but want to minimise the suffering of animals in the meat industry--or perhaps even do away with "industrial" production altogether. Most probably accept, too, that there's an important ethical difference between other animals and human beings. And professional ethicists generally do as well. See this by Martha Nussbaum, for instance:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39a9/e6a9b2732e13bf19b98a6b0a25952f180530.pdf

My point is only that the inherent cruelty of humane omnivorism is not ethically sufficient to forbid the slaughter and consumption of meat. There are a variety of ethical positions that start from and end in a variety of claims on this issue.
 

Prophecy

Settler
Dec 12, 2007
593
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Italy
I enjoyed reading your comments, TNS, and I'm looking forward to replying once I've got the time to sit down in front of the computer! If you have any more thoughts then feel free to put them all out there; they won't go un-replied to.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
As for 'we could both produce scientific evidence to prove our arguments', I am the only person here who has posted peer reviewed scientific evidence to bolster everything I've said that's not subjective.

No-one has posted any evidence bar a meme.

So please, I'd love to see more scientific evidence.
Exactly. You've posted peer reviewed articles. Their peers being other over sensitive types form the "rest of the world." Don't worry though, those of us in the real world will keep growing enough food to feed you. (and no, that reference to the real world isn't a reference to nationality; rather it's a reference to realists worldwide)

By the way, I also have a university education. No, I don't make my living from animals; I supplement it. My actual retirement comes from two other sources ATM: 1) military retirement and 2) law enforcement retirement. Soon I'll add two more regular retirement checks: 1) Social Security (what y'all call O.A.P.) and I'll begin withdrawing from my I.R.A. (a personal retirement investment account)
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
.....From the abstract of that article: "Animal sentience refers to the ability of animals to experience pleasurable states such as joy, and aversive states such as pain and fear (Broom, D.M. Dis. Aquat. Org. 2007, 75, 99–108)." that seems to be the accepted definition--I may be wrong, but that's what I found.

The literature--I won't cite it all here, everyone can Google--generally accepts that vertebrates (and perhaps some invertebrates, too) experience pain and fear, at least in so far as we can identify these states in their behaviours. From what I've read, "joy" is a tough sell, but "pain and fear" seem to be present in mammals, fish, and even things like crayfish.......
Pain is nothing more than the evolved nervous system to help a species survive. Likewise fear and pleasure is the same evolutionary goal accomplished by instinctive reactions. The very concept of sentience is a product of a higher evolutionary state. Animals will be setient when they've evolved enough to contemplate that concept. Not before.
 

Buckshot

Mod
Mod
Jan 19, 2004
6,471
352
Oxford
Mod hat on
Great that you're having a conversation here but...
aimed at no-one in particular
lets not resort to name calling or demeaning comments
Some of the posts could be read in a derogatory way. Lets not stoop that low please.
 
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Prophecy

Settler
Dec 12, 2007
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Exactly. You've posted peer reviewed articles. Their peers being other over sensitive types form the "rest of the world." Don't worry though, those of us in the real world will keep growing enough food to feed you. (and no, that reference to the real world isn't a reference to nationality; rather it's a reference to realists worldwide)

Yeh you've just shown you don't know how science works. Scientists who peer review study and research are essentially a judging panel who try their best to discredit the publication by finding flaws. If it's peer reviewed, it's good to go and it's as close to a truth as you can get.

All these scientists and philosophers agree that animals are sentient, no question about it - thousands of studies have been done - but hey why should I listen to them when I have a farmer here telling me the opposite. Good luck in the real world!
 

Prophecy

Settler
Dec 12, 2007
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Militant vegan way of trying to change people.
I have never seen, read or heard about Omnivores doing that to a Vegan venture.
Your first line is not a full sentence so I don't know what you mean by it. Again, how is this relevant?

Can't we stick to the discussion? I think everyone is kind of enjoying it.
 

mousey

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jun 15, 2010
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I must say I have been enjoying this thread, and have been following it fairly closely. I have been rather looking forward to your responses to The Noble Savages comments, as he has put how I feel about the subject better than I could formulate the words myself.

For any mods looking in - I feel this has been a very civilised discussion with all participance behaving very well.
 
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Prophecy

Settler
Dec 12, 2007
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I must say I have been enjoying this thread, and have been following it fairly closely. I have been rather looking forward to your responses to The Noble Savages comments, as he has put how I feel about the subject better than I could formulate the words myself.

For any mods looking in - I feel this has been a very civilised discussion with all participance behaving very well.
Yes it's clear he put some time and effort into writing out his thoughts, so I'm just waiting on half an hour to sit down properly. Any time I've responded today it's been when I get a minute on my phone but obviously his posts deserve a better response!
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
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Your first line is not a full sentence so I don't know what you mean by it. Again, how is this relevant?

Can't we stick to the discussion? I think everyone is kind of enjoying it.

I am not native English speaking, sorry for my somewhat fractured sentence!
Yes, it is a good thread. I am happy I started it!
 

Janne

Sent off - Not allowed to play
Feb 10, 2016
12,330
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Let us continue here!

Yes, I do see the point in the non killing, or not causing suffering. I have thought long and hard over several years, but decided to still eat Animalia.

What I try to do is to support ethically farmed producers as far as I am able to.
Also to eat less meat, not to waste/throw away, and to eat all parts ( meat, offal, marrow, skin if feasible, feet, tail)

I think it would be a very difficult situation if we all turned Vegan. Many animals worldwide live in areas where agriculture is impossible. Goats and sheep in arid, mountanious areas, sheep and reindeer in the Arctic. Hunting and fishing sustain several populations on the northern and southern fringes of the world.

Yes, we eat generally speaking too much meat and fish. It is to cheap too.

Yes, back to the first post!
if we all turn against our cultures and fysionome, it would be devastating worldwide.
My favourite area, the Lofoten Islands in the Arctic Norway, would not survive without the Fishery, to a lesser degree sheep farming and even lesser degree, whale hunt.
My 'Heaven on Earth' the village Reine, would vanish. 2 whaling boats, 10 families or so are dependent on this. Fishery - maybe 25 small boats and 8-10 bigger ones. Every family has connection to the Sea Husbandry.
Then further North, the Reindeer husbandry supports one of Europe's remaining 'aboriginal' populations, the Same.

The fish indirectly is an not unimportant Export fopr the country. Feeds tens of thousands of Europeans, tens of thousands of Africans.
Several areas in Africa get their Protein need satisfied by the Arctic Norwegian fish.
Nothing gets wasted. Even the heads are dried and used as human food ( Africa).

The fruit and veg situation up there is frankly speaking shocking.
Bad quality, expensive. Better now than 10 years ago at least.

I think you could be a healthy and successful Vegetarian there. Not sure about being a vegan though.

I think Veganism is a 'luxury' trend. Works in bigger cities, with reliable fruit and veg supplies.
In the fringes of Europe - not feasible. Not if you want to eat proper Vegan food, without added chemical food additives ( vitamins and minerals).

BUT, we all should adopt a diet where we eat less meat. Become Vego-vege-omnivores.
 
Last edited:

Prophecy

Settler
Dec 12, 2007
593
32
38
Italy
Yes, back to the first post!
if we all turn against our cultures and fysionome, it would be devastating worldwide.
My favourite area, the Lofoten Islands in the Arctic Norway, would not survive without the Fishery, to a lesser degree sheep farming and even lesser degree, whale hunt.
My 'Heaven on Earth' the village Reine, would vanish. 2 whaling boats, 10 families or so are dependent on this. Fishery - maybe 25 small boats and 8-10 bigger ones. Every family has connection to the Sea Husbandry.
Then further North, the Reindeer husbandry supports one of Europe's remaining 'aboriginal' populations, the Same.

The fish indirectly is an not unimportant Export fopr the country. Feeds tens of thousands of Europeans, tens of thousands of Africans.
Several areas in Africa get their Protein need satisfied by the Arctic Norwegian fish.
Nothing gets wasted. Even the heads are dried and used as human food ( Africa).

The fruit and veg situation up there is frankly speaking shocking.
Bad quality, expensive. Better now than 10 years ago at least.

I think you could be a healthy and successful Vegetarian there. Not sure about being a vegan though.

I think Veganism is a 'luxury' trend. Works in bigger cities, with reliable fruit and veg supplies.
In the fringes of Europe - not feasible. Not if you want to eat proper Vegan food, without added chemical food additives ( vitamins and minerals.
I already answered this. Vegans are not saying that Afganis must sell their goats and try their luck with planting a sunflower crop instead.

The fact is that in the western world where we have huge supermarkets, we don't need to eat meat.
 

Prophecy

Settler
Dec 12, 2007
593
32
38
Italy
I am not native English speaking, sorry for my somewhat fractured sentence!
Yes, it is a good thread. I am happy I started it!
Ah, the victim card. Of course, I should have known it was coming! They pull that one when they have nothing left, apart from repeating old arguments and posing sensationalist links from newspapers trying to smear the name of those who they are trying to hold a discussion with.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
........I think you could be a healthy and successful Vegetarian there. Not sure about being a vegan though.

I think Veganism is a 'luxury' trend. Works in bigger cities, with reliable fruit and veg supplies.
In the fringes of Europe - not feasible. Not if you want to eat proper Vegan food, without added chemical food additives ( vitamins and minerals.
Being vegetarian and staying healthy is possible but I think you're right about it being difficult to do it without resorting to importing things that would otherwise be seasonal (I presume that was at least part of your suggestion that it would be easier in larger cities) Yes, being vegan would be still more difficult but probably possible also. The thing your comment prompted me to think about though was those chemical additives or supplements. Do you know how they're produced? Are they vegan? Or from animal products?
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,120
68
Florida
I already answered this. Vegans are not saying that Afganis must sell their goats and try their luck with planting a sunflower crop instead.

The fact is that in the western world where we have huge supermarkets, we don't need to eat meat.
No, we don't have to eat meat. "Need" is another matter. Yes, we do need to eat meat unless we're willing to cause even more damage to the environment. But niether need nor mandatory requirements have been the primary issue (we've all conceded that on an individual basis a vegan diet can be healthy with the proper preparation and diligence although it's impractical on a societal scale) The primary issue of contention has been the morality of eating meat. You're simply not satisfied that we (most of us) reject the very idea that animal consumption is immoral.
 

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