It wasn't a dig, I can't find a source and I would like to read more about it.Only 61 years of personal off and on involvement in farming/ranching. And another 3 generations before me.
It wasn't a dig, I can't find a source and I would like to read more about it.Only 61 years of personal off and on involvement in farming/ranching. And another 3 generations before me.
In the UK it looks like large amounts of meat and dairy are increasingly coming from factory farms and I suppose whilst size itself doesn't necessarily correlate to inhumane conditions and mistreatment these animals are always indoors and size certainly doesn't seem to my mind to lead to them being seen as sentient, feeling creatures. I'm not vegan or fully vegetarian but am increasingly cutting out meat and diary mainly due to animal cruelty grounds. I have a cat and children and a wife and they can eat what they want, I can only be responsible for my own actions and don't want to influence others it's up to individuals to decide what is important to them. My decision is being made and moving more and more towards vegan as I think that animals are intelligent (relatively), do experience pain and suffering and for me there are viable alternatives to feeding myself with out putting them through that - but each to their own. Rich.
these figures are from compassion in world farming:
Globally, 70% of poultry meat, 50% of pork, 40% of beef and 60% of eggs are factory farmed
In the UK, 80% of chickens, 45% of laying hens and 75% of breeding pigs are factory farmed
And these are from The Bureau of Investigative Journalism
our investigation has also shown the UK is now home to at least 789 mega-farms or what the US calls CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations).
To meet the definition of a Cafo, a facility must have at least 125,000 broilers (chickens raised for meat), or 82,000 layers (hens which produce eggs) or pullets (chickens used for breeding), or 2,500 pigs, 700 dairy cattle or 1,000 beef cattle.
The majority of the UK mega-farms - 575 - are poultry, with 190 pig, 21 dairy and 3 beef units.
Seven of the 10 largest poultry farms - producing meat or eggs or both - in the UK have the capacity to house more than one million birds. The biggest two farms are able to hold 1.7 million and 1.4 million birds respectively. The biggest pig farm is able to hold 23,000 pigs, while the largest cattle farm - in Lincolnshire - can house approximately 3,000 cattle.
Great contribution to the thread Rich and lots of good info.
Perhaps we're concentrating too much on cows and we should be shifting our focus on pigs. Highly sentient, very clever animals who are treated like filth. I say we release them all, when they turn into boar, and we must hunt them 'naturally' ie without any instruments. Just our 'claws'. And eat the meat raw with our gigantic flesh-ripping jaws. I'm sure we wouldn't get sick or anything!
The thing about 'I wouldn't force it on anyone else' thing... I used to think the same thing. Admittedly it's not a great way to make friends. Most people go on the defence immediately because when they hear someone is vegan. Honestly I've had people call me out from the other side of the dinner table when they hear me ask the waitress 'do you have any vegan options?'
They can't handle it. They see it as an attack on their person. They have heard someone saying 'I don't kill animals but all these people do and therefore I'm better than they are'. But in reality vegans aren't necessarily better people, but yes obviously we have the moral high ground on this one separate issue, simply because we don't need to kill animals for the selfish sake of our tastebuds. As we've seen in this thread, people are extremely sensitive to even an utterance of a comparison between what we pay people to do for animals for us (electric shocked/bolt into brain/hung upside down/throat slit/living in horrific conditions) and people they know. Responses like that speak volumes. As does the fact that most of us feel queasy seeing slaughter house footage, where all of our animals end up regardless of how they were kept.
Personally I don't see any benefit to religious people trying to convert people from atheist to their religion. I don't see any good reason for doing it, and if that person stays atheist or turns to a particular religion, there isn't any real world change. The change would be a personal one, perhaps for the better.
But eating meat, dairy and eggs has real world victims who can feel pain but cannot speak out. I see it as speaking out for them. If you wanted people to stop caging and killing and eating millions of dogs every day, would you just stop doing it yourself and then not say a word to anyone? Wouldn't you try to spread the word about the alternative in an effort to decrease the number of dogs being murdered?
If you also want to feel better about yourself, lose a little bit of weight, get healthier, and not contribute to one of the leading causes of climate change (if that's a concern for you), generally reduce your carbon footprint on this earth, and not contribute to the mass-slaughter of sentient animals, then it's an extremely easy choice to make. Go compassionate, and go vegan.
Great contribution to the thread Rich and lots of good info.
Perhaps we're concentrating too much on cows and we should be shifting our focus on pigs. Highly sentient, very clever animals who are treated like filth. I say we release them all, when they turn into boar, and we must hunt them 'naturally' ie without any instruments. Just our 'claws'. And eat the meat raw with our gigantic flesh-ripping jaws. I'm sure we wouldn't get sick or anything!
The thing about 'I wouldn't force it on anyone else' thing... I used to think the same thing. Admittedly it's not a great way to make friends. Most people go on the defence immediately because when they hear someone is vegan. Honestly I've had people call me out from the other side of the dinner table when they hear me ask the waitress 'do you have any vegan options?'
They can't handle it. They see it as an attack on their person. They have heard someone saying 'I don't kill animals but all these people do and therefore I'm better than they are'. But in reality vegans aren't necessarily better people, but yes obviously we have the moral high ground on this one separate issue, simply because we don't need to kill animals for the selfish sake of our tastebuds. As we've seen in this thread, people are extremely sensitive to even an utterance of a comparison between what we pay people to do for animals for us (electric shocked/bolt into brain/hung upside down/throat slit/living in horrific conditions) and people they know. Responses like that speak volumes. As does the fact that most of us feel queasy seeing slaughter house footage, where all of our animals end up regardless of how they were kept.
Personally I don't see any benefit to religious people trying to convert people from atheist to their religion. I don't see any good reason for doing it, and if
Turning pigs loose? Yes, some idiots have done things like that. Turned boar loose, turned minks loose. Released Main lobsters loose.
Those fools I have a word for: Eco terrorists. Should be in jail, in the same cell as the responsible for releasing industrial waste untreated into the rivers and seas.
The suffering those idiots caused to the animals, and damage to Nature was immense.
Ihope you understand that once the electricity has made the animal unconcious, they do not feel anything? Ever had an operation? Same thing. Unconcious.
Bolt - having seen cows, pigs and a couple of horses being killed this way I would love to go the same way.
Hung upside down and throat slit? Yes, painless. Most are brain dead by then.
But remember one point. The animals do not know any difference.
not unless they have a genetic memory.
You missed my query about if vegans take vaccines and medication in the other thread?
As you are one of our Vegans, and open about it, you might find that wuestion interesting?
Well, I am a vegan then, as I try hard to minimize the harm, and increase the well being of the animals?
( by buying meats ethically raised and minimising the meat eating)
Frankly speaking, I find the Vegan community being on the offensive, not the omnivores.
You implied it yourself in a recent post. Onmivores do not have several organisations trying to convert vegans.
Not ignored, do not have time to answer them all!Eh OK then I'll provide you with a definition of veganism since you can't understand it. This is from Vegan Society.
Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
No matter how the animals are treated, is it ethical to kill an innocent, sentient being, who doesn't want to die?
I also notice that you've ignored lots of my previous post as usual.
If an animal is born into factory captivity, they do not have any memories of fields, sky, sun. All they know is cages, being packed tightly tigether and being fed.
They do not miss anything. They do not duffer. They are content and happy, as long as they ate well watered and well fed. If they get sick they get medications, if badly hurt they get put down.
They would only feel the loss of their natural habitat and free life if they had an inbuilt memory of the ‘free outside’.
Yes, you are correct, it is about vaccines and farmaceuticals
Vaccines are as you know produced by infecting ‘sentient’ organisms ( fertilized eggs) and meds are extensively tested on a range of animals to test the function, effectness and safety for us.
Not ignored, do not have time to answer them all!
I am excluding as far as possible and practicable all forms of exploitation and cruelty! That is my point!!!
You too, your way!
I am following my organisms needs, what it was made for. Causing as little harm as possible.
So basically the only difference between you and somebody like me is that you do not eat animalia products
But you are accepting that lives are killed, animals are harmed in producing medication you benefit from, just like me.
Am I correct?
Btw, not only meds. You get fillings in your teeth, maybe a crown, maybe an implant.
All animal developed and researched.
Need an operation? Animal researched and developed. New joint?
Ditto.
Unfortunately our lives are intimately linked to our use (and unfortunately abuse) of animals.
'If a child is born into factory captivity, they do not have any memories of fields, sky, sun. All they know is cages, being packed tightly tigether and being fed.
They do not miss anything. They do not duffer. They are content and happy, as long as they ate well watered and well fed. If they get sick they get medications, if badly hurt they get put down.'
Hopefully you felt what I did when I read that. You have brainwashed yourself. If you think that chickens, choking and suffocating on faeces and urine and ammonia, rife with disease and stress, without any natural light, barely enough room to move, having their beaks cut off without anaesthetic and living in such a stressed and horrific condition, are 'happy and content', then you are much further removed from any ounce of animal compassion than I thought.
Do you honestly think sick chickens get to go to the vet? Do you think they are given a lethal injection if they're badly hurt due to their squalid conditions? Do you think this kind of treatment is justified to innocent beings, just because it's what they've always known? What animals do you apply this logic to? What animals don't you apply this logic to?
You say you're against this kind of husbandry, but yet you don't seem to understand why it's cruel to the animals. So on what grounds are you against it?
So? Are you implying that this is a terrible thing? So how do you survive then? What alternative are you using? Only foraged plant medicines?
I think you know very well what I mean, but are twisting it....
Yes, animal testing is horrible. But we need it. I support it 100%
My question, which you seem to avoid, is, as you, who are rabidly opposed to “murdering” sentient (as defined today) creatures, how do you YOU justify yourself being treated with vaccines and medications?
As you fully know the facts?
Edit; you answered it a little bit in the post after.
So you do put your health and well being before animals.
Btw, you do not need a filling or a crown. You can live a good life without one tooth in your mouth. Or being completely without teeth. People did before modern dentistry.
You do not need 99% of the medication you are taking. You are increasing the risk of dying, and maybe shortening your overall life by a very short time.
So you do put your health and well being before animals.
You called killing of animals for food ‘murder’, so us meat eaters are by default ‘murderers’
Sadly, by your definition, you are one too.
You just cloak it .
Yes if you want to contribute to the unnecessary exploitation and killing of animals for the mere pleasure of taste.I am not attacking you.
I too have chosen the lesser of the two evils.
Big meat eater vs small meat eater.
As I want to follow what nature designed me for I still eat Animalia.