Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[mousey]

.....Do you know what the regulations are for free-range chicken in the UK?

yes I do, and I would imagine most others on here would as well. I keep chickens and ducks 'free range' in far superior surroundings than the 'legal' requirement demands. I would quite happily bash one of their heads in and do a terrible job of skinning and gutting one to eat it if I had to. Basically if I'm starving I'm going to eat it, and I'm honest enough to say I'd eat my pets too if the chips were down, having said that my wife would be perfectly happy to bash my head in to save the pets....

 

[santaman2000]

Avacadoes are a "fashionable" food? LOL.

Somebody mentioned having trouble finding a good meat free breakfast meal. Obviously this is a British forum and most on here think of breakfast in terms of a traditional "full English" meal. Even as an American my traditions are similar. That said, I think even we (British and American cultures) have largely moved to cereals for breakfast; whether it be a cold cereal or a hot porridge. Those are certainly easy enough.

I agree that while I would never think of eating the dog I have no problem eating farmed or hunted animals. At least not in general but some farm animals can become pets if you allow it. Same with some wild animals (I have farmed/ranched form an early age and hunted even longer) The obvious take away is that the dog (even the outside only farm or hunting dogs) are family; the livestock isn't. I have no problem with that. On a similar note I've also been a G.I. (over 21 years) before a second career as a cop and later corrections officer for another 13 years. In that entire 36 years my duties included carrying weapons with the purpose of killing other humans if the need arose. At the same time I'd never have thought about killing family or friends. What's my point? Yes! Family, friends, and innocent humans take precedence over animals. That doesn't stop me from having compassion for even the livestock and the inmates. I won't apologize for either the compassion or the pragmatism.

Our brains evolved because of starchy foods? (known better as carbohydrates, or "carbs" for the last 50 years or so) All teachings say otherwise; conventional thinking is that our brains evolved from higher protein. There is indeed a list of valid health concerns over too much meat consumption. The ironic thing is that the health concerns conflict with some of the moral issues. The moral stance is that we should utilize (consume) the entire animal rather than waste it whereas the health concerns teach to avoid the organs and fat ALL animals and any dark meat form the poultry. Personally, the fat and the dark meat are some of my favorite parts, to the dismay of my doctor, my diabetes nurse, and my dietician (all of whom also encourage me to eat far, far fewer starches and more protein)

As to the environmental concerns regarding meat vs vegan (and yes, this really is the way we ranch)

 

[Prophecy]

Avacadoes are a "fashionable" food? LOL.

Somebody mentioned having trouble finding a good meat free breakfast meal. Obviously this is a British forum and most on here think of breakfast in terms of a traditional "full English" meal. Even as an American my traditions are similar. That said, I think even we (British and American cultures) have largely moved to cereals for breakfast; whether it be a cold cereal or a hot porridge. Those are certainly easy enough.

I agree that while I would never think of eating the dog I have no problem eating farmed or hunted animals. At least not in general but some farm animals can become pets if you allow it. Same with some wild animals (I have farmed/ranched form an early age and hunted even longer) The obvious take away is that the dog (even the outside only farm or hunting dogs) are family; the livestock isn't. I have no problem with that. On a similar note I've also been a G.I. (over 21 years) before a second career as a cop and later corrections officer for another 13 years. In that entire 36 years my duties included carrying weapons with the purpose of killing other humans if the need arose. At the same time I'd never have thought about killing family or friends. What's my point? Yes! Family, friends, and innocent humans take precedence over animals. That doesn't stop me from having compassion for even the livestock and the inmates. I won't apologize for either the compassion or the pragmatism.

Our brains evolved because of starchy foods? (known better as carbohydrates, or "carbs" for the last 50 years or so) All teachings say otherwise; conventional thinking is that our brains evolved from higher protein. There is indeed a list of valid health concerns over too much meat consumption. The ironic thing is that the health concerns conflict with some of the moral issues. The moral stance is that we should utilize (consume) the entire animal rather than waste it whereas the health concerns teach to avoid the organs and fat ALL animals and any dark meat form the poultry. Personally, the fat and the dark meat are some of my favorite parts, to the dismay of my doctor, my diabetes nurse, and my dietician (all of whom also encourage me to eat far, far fewer starches and more protein)

As to the environmental concerns regarding meat vs vegan (and yes, this really is the way we ranch)

Have a look at the study I posted further up regarding the carbohydrate vs meat. It's quite interesting. It seems fairly straightforward, however it's not peer reviewed as far as I can tell and I would need to read up lots on it.

But even if was meat or carbs that gave us that brain boost, really does it matter? Fact is we can be healthy or even healthier on a vegan diet.

I don't really understand the meme. What is it saying?

 

[Janne]

I do not think there is much difference between veganism and oldfashioned (much less meat than average Joe eats today ) omnivoroism ,eating oldfashioned foods when it comes to the footprint.

With oldfashioned foods means avoiding or even excluding highly travelled exotics like Quinoa, rice, African grown veg in winter for example.
We did that in UK. Easy. Eating local strawberries when in season is a fantastic treat you long for. Eating imported ones, mostly pretty tasteless, removes this pleasure. NZ apples? No thanks!


(I must say that here we can not do that as everything is imported, we have no choice.)

I hope we still can keep a civilized discussion, and listen and learn from each others experiences and knowledge!

 

[santaman2000]

.......But even if was meat or carbs that gave us that brain boost, really does it matter? Fact is we can be healthy or even healthier on a vegan diet.

I don't really understand the meme. What is it saying?

The point is that carbs are the primary calorie source for most vegetarians and as a diabetic I need to avoid carbs (or at least, severely limit them) Mind, I like carbs almost as much as I like meat so it ain't an easy task. Green leafy type veg are very healthy, but low in both calories and protein by comparison.

The meme is pretty straighforward. Plant agriculture (monoculture) is far, far less diverse than ranching regarding coexisting wildlife.

I do not think there is much difference between veganism and oldfashioned (much less meat than average Joe eats today ) omnivoroism ,eating oldfashioned foods when it comes to the footprint.

With oldfashioned foods means avoiding or even excluding highly travelled exotics like Quinoa, rice, African grown veg in winter for example.
We did that in UK. Easy. Eating local strawberries when in season is a fantastic treat you long for. Eating imported ones, mostly pretty tasteless, removes this pleasure. NZ apples? No thanks!


(I must say that here we can not do that as everything is imported, we have no choice.)

I hope we still can keep a civilized discussion, and listen and learn from each others experiences and knowledge!

Rice is an exotic, highly traveled food? More than 75% of our rice is grown within 100 miles of Monro, Louisiana. Another 15% either in California or Minnesota. It's grown on almost every continent.


Lifted from Wiki:

Today, people can visit the only remaining rice plantation in South Carolina that still has the original winnowing barn and rice mill from the mid-19th century at the historic Mansfield Plantation in Georgetown, South Carolina. The predominant strain of rice in the Carolinas was from Africa and was known as 'Carolina Gold'. The cultivar has been preserved and there are current attempts to reintroduce it as a commercially grown crop.[70]

In the southern United States, rice has been grown in southern Arkansas, Louisiana, and east Texas since the mid-19th century. Many Cajun farmers grew rice in wet marshes and low-lying prairies where they could also farm crayfish when the fields were flooded.[71] In recent years rice production has risen in North America, especially in the Mississippi embayment in the states of Arkansas and Mississippi (see also Arkansas Delta and Mississippi Delta).



Rice paddy fields just north of the city of Sacramento, California.

Rice cultivation began in California during the California Gold Rush, when an estimated 40,000 Chinese laborers immigrated to the state and grew small amounts of the grain for their own consumption. However, commercial production began only in 1912 in the town of Richvale in Butte County.[72] By 2006, California produced the second-largest rice crop in the United States,[73] after Arkansas, with production concentrated in six counties north of Sacramento.[74] Unlike the Arkansas–Mississippi Delta region, California's production is dominated by short- and medium-grain japonica varieties, including cultivars developed for the local climate such as Calrose, which makes up as much as 85% of the state's crop.[75]


References to "wild rice" native to North America are to the unrelated Zizania palustris.[76]

More than 100 varieties of rice are commercially produced primarily in six states (Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, and California) in the U.S.[77] According to estimates for the 2006 crop year, rice production in the U.S. is valued at $1.88 billion, approximately half of which is expected to be exported. The U.S. provides about 12% of world rice trade.[77] The majority of domestic utilization of U.S. rice is direct food use (58%), while 16% is used in each of processed foods and beer. 10% is found in pet food


Likewise production in the Caribbean and Latin America (also lifted from Wkik)

Caribbean and Latin America
Most of the rice used today in the cuisine of the Americas is not native, but was introduced to Latin America and the Caribbean by European colonizers at an early date. However, there are at least two native (endemic) species of rice present in the Amazon region of South America, and one or both were used by the indigenous inhabitants of the region to create the domesticated form Oryza sp., some 4000 years ago.[65]

Spanish colonizers introduced Asian rice to Mexico in the 1520s at Veracruz; and the Portuguese and their African slaves introduced it at about the same time to colonial Brazil.[66] Recent scholarship suggests that enslaved Africans played an active role in the establishment of rice in the New World and that African rice was an important crop from an early period.[67] Varieties of rice and bean dishes that were a staple dish along the peoples of West Africa remained a staple among their descendants subjected to slavery in the Spanish New World colonies, Brazil and elsewhere in the Americas.[44]

 

[dave89]

Avacadoes are a "fashionable" food? LOL.

500,000 pictures tagged avacardo on instagram

 

[santaman2000]

500,000 pictures tagged avacardo on instagram

People like them (is that the same as a fashion?) They're healthy. I don't do instagram, but if I did I suspect I could find a like number of tags for ols staples like chili, or bananas. I could be wrong.

 

[santaman2000]

According to this map it seems most European rice production is in Spain:

But the text indicates a wider range of cultivation:

Europe


Rice cropping.

Rice was known to the Classical world, being imported from Egypt, and perhaps west Asia. It was known to Greece (where it is still cultivated in Macedonia and Thrace) by returning soldiers from Alexander the Great's military expedition to Asia. Large deposits of rice from the first century AD have been found in Roman camps in Germany.[62]


The Moors brought Asiatic rice to the Iberian Peninsula in the 10th century. Records indicate it was grown in Valencia and Majorca. In Majorca, rice cultivation seems to have stopped after the Christian conquest, although historians are not certain.[61]


Muslims also brought rice to Sicily with cultivation starting in the 9th century,[63] where it was an important crop[61] long before it is noted in the plain of Pisa (1468) or in the Lombard plain (1475), where its cultivation was promoted by Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, and demonstrated in his model farms.[64]


After the 15th century, rice spread throughout Italy and then France, later propagating to all the continents during the age of European exploration.


In European Russia, a short-grain, starchy rice similar to the Italian varieties, has been grown in the Krasnodar Krai, and known in Russia as "Kuban Rice" or "Krasnodar Rice". In the Russian Far East several japonica cultivars are grown in Primorye around the Khanka lake. Increasing scale of rice production in the region has recently brought criticism towards growers' alleged bad practices in regards to the environment.

 

[dave89]

People like them (is that the same as a fashion?) They're healthy. I don't do instagram, but if I did I suspect I could find a like number of tags for ols staples like chili, or bananas. I could be wrong.

Banana your looking at about 100,000 photos but they have been arond for ages and readily available whereas abavacardoes are a recent health fad like kale

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

 

[santaman2000]

Banana your looking at about 100,000 photos but they have been arond for ages and readily available whereas abavacardoes are a recent health fad like kale

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Huh? They didn't make it to Europe until the Spanish took them back in the early 1500s but that's quite some time now. Even allowing that they weren't necessarily a particularly popular food for a while, they became mainstream probably a half century or more ago. I easily found them (in the form of guacamole) even in the UK 30 years ago.

 

[Robson Valley]

Well, fix everything to your liking. I like things as they are.
We are cultivating crops. Wheat or chickens, the very same thing.
You're telling me that harvesting wheat isn't murder?

 

[santaman2000]

Well, fix everything to your liking. I like things as they are.
We are cultivating crops. Wheat or chickens, the very same thing.
You're telling me that harvesting wheat isn't murder?

Or:

 

[Janne]

Italy grow rice too. But transporting it from Spain and Italy to northern Europe and Uk is far more damaging to the environment than getting potatoes from the next county.
Or chicken from China.




Quinoa from the Americas - I just read recently how the population in Bolivia (?) can not afford this for them ancient staple food, and are eating more white rice which is less nutritious.

I also read an interesting article recently how the old diseases and bodily afflictions that stem from under nutrition are coming back in UK.

I myself diagnosed Scurvy last year, clinical Scurvy!
The lady was a Vegan, but could have happened on an Omni too.
Drs did not think the test results were true, so did nothing, but with my clinical diagniosis they started a proper investigation, found a sub clinical food intolerance plus a sub clinical inflammation in the thin intestine.

It was quite cool, as the last time I saw a Scurvy case was on paper and photos while I studied 35 years ago.

 

[santaman2000]

Yeah I added the text portion because it shows better than the map that rice is apparently grown in most of Southern Europe. Frankly, the short trip from Spain to the UK seems a short rip to me. That said, the UK likely isn't large enough to be self sufficient without farming a significantly larger portion of its land area than I think the population would be comfortable giving up. And even then, it would require the factory farming that seems to be part of the anti-theme.

 

[Janne]

People should know that up until the 1960's dr's did not think that small children felt much pain, that the crying was an overreaction, so OK to slap a child if they hurt themselves.

Until recently it was a scientific fact that fetuses did not feel pain, so all (normal and late) abortions were done without anesthetics for the fetus.

I was told that worms and mollusks do not feel pain when put on the hook so I fished with them for decades.

I think all living organisms feel pain or the eqvivalent if damaged.

 

[Robson Valley]

The sudden popularity of quinoa drove the price up beyond what the locals could afford!
Wide spread cultivation since then has pushed the price down. Far enough, I don't know.
Rice, I don't think that they can grow on the Alto Plano. More import costs, I guess.

Very easy to develop malnutrition in the face of persistent ignorance of all of the details of human nutrition.
In a country which shall remain nameless, there is a big push to add aspartame sweetener to milk.
But, never record that fact on the milk label. Yup = keep it a secret.
The logic is to make milk more attractive to badly nourished children.

 

[Prophecy]

Well, fix everything to your liking. I like things as they are.
We are cultivating crops. Wheat or chickens, the very same thing.
You're telling me that harvesting wheat isn't murder?

Biology 101. Plants are not sentient beings. They cannot feel pain. In order to do so you need a central nervous system and a brain. So no, obviously that isn't murder. Is killing 22 million animals a day in the UK alone by gassing, shooting a bolt in the head, grinding up alive or slitting throats, murder?

 

[santaman2000]

Yeah RV, I also read a couple of years ago that the surge in quinoa popularity had made it near impossible for the indigenous peoples to get anymore. Likewise I also read that the increased production had alleviated that. Is that true? Or just a marketing claim to sell more? I certainly don't know.

 

[santaman2000]

Biology 101. Plants are not sentient beings. They cannot feel pain. In order to do so you need a central nervous system and a brain. So no, obviously that isn't murder. Is killing 22 million animals a day by gassing, shooting a bolt in the head, grinding up alive or slitting throats, murder?

Likewise the vast majority of animals aren't sentient (self aware that they'll eventually die, and with a sense of "why are we here?") Elephants may be an exception.

 

[Robson Valley]

Probably hard to get a straight story out of anybody with connections into Bolivia these days.
Might be some straight talk from any number of United Nations food agencies but which one?
Hate almost to admit it but I really like quinoa, red or white, and it is not cheap here.

Harvesting animals is no different than any other crop. The whole nuts & berries thing is the same.
The quality of the harvesting technology may be a reflection of the urgency of the demand.

I'm convinced that in the west, we don't make effective use of the entire animal.
I know that for a fact with the bison that I but but I can't encourage anybody to take advantage
of what to me is inedible ( hide, horns, etc).