Veganism, Vegeterianism, Omnivorism

[Prophecy]

Surely there are two things at least, to take into consideration,if everyone turned vegan, or vegatarian.
1....If everyone stopped eating meat, then a lot of animals would become extinct, not may people would keep a cow , or a pig, chicken,etc as a pet, keeping sheep would be too expensive as the wool is virtually worthless.
2....I doubt we could actually grow enough food to feed them.

I think its a personal choice to go vegan, we eat meat because we always have, its plentiful and relatively cheap, and we do get a lot of vitamin value from, beef , fish etc
Its abit like smoking, drinking alcohol, personal choice, no big deal.................let it lie
What I cant understand is, it seems half the world is on a diet, and the other half is starving,

We breed these animals into existence by artificially inseminating them. If the world all went vegan, it would be a slow and gradual process and gradually we would breed less and less animals until there would be none.

What's better, being born to lead a life of suffer and torture and death, or not be born at all?

No vitamins or nutritrients are found in meat that cannot be found in plants, and they're healthier too.

Should we continue to do something just because it's what we always have done? Where's the moral basis in that? There isn't. Tradition has no bearing on morality. Slavery used to be legal and we changed our minds on that. Going by your logic we would have continued it because that's what we always did!

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[Prophecy]

Its abit like smoking, drinking alcohol, personal choice, no big deal.................let it lie
What I cant understand is, it seems half the world is on a diet, and the other half is starving,

But how is slaughtering of 200 billion animals each year like smoking? It would be a big deal if your dog was going to be slaughtered. It would be a big deal if you were one of those animals. It would be a big deal if you could just put yourself in their shoes.

Regarding the latter comment, I agree it's kind of perplexing. Veganism also has an answer to that though. We grow an enormous amount of plants to feed animals so that we can eat the animals. This land use would decrease drastically if we were to use the land directly for humans, and then we would have enough food for everyone. There's a nice big study done on this, in the link below.

It says;

While shifting the use of crops as animal feed and biofuels would have tremendous benefits to global food security and the environment, there are numerous political and cultural obstacles to such a shift [35, 36]. However, in some places, a shift towards less meat-intensive diets is underway, primarily as a result of health concerns [37]. Many people in affluent nations consume more animal products than is nutritionally recommended [38]. Further, overconsumption of red meats is associated with many health problems like obesity [39], cardiovascular disease [40], and some cancers [41, 42]. Reducing meat consumption, or shifting meat consumption away from beef to poultry and pork has the potential to increase cropland food productivity and feed more people per hectare of cropland.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/3/034015/meta


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[Fadcode]

You can read all the articles you like, and come to any conclusion you wish, as for the benefits of eating vegetables and plants, as humans we will never adapt to this, we are not designed to be vegans, if we were we would never have evovled to stand up,(my opinion), being a vegan, vegatarian is not a religion so no need to preach about it, as I have said it is a personal choice, it has nothing to do with animal cruelty neither, I am surprised no one has said plants feel things too, and we should stop eating them, even in free environments animals have to be managed and culled to survive or they will vanish, yes there is animal cruelty in the world, animals are killed for their meat, ivory, their skins, their bones because misguided people think there is magic in them, a lot of pets are locked in houses all day, is that cruel, yes it is, and most of the dogs in this world are bred for design, just like we breed cattle and sheep, so obviously we should not keep dogs,,,?. if we didnt use our cars the use of the horse would not have been wiped out, we move on, we adapt, we survive, every now and again mother nature throws a curved ball at us, in storms, disease, adverse weather, drought etc,and we have to change and try to survive, because we are animals too, and we sometimes turn a blind eye to cruelty because otherwise we get to a dilemna, should we kill all the lions, tigers,dogs, because they eat other animals and that is cruel, or should we accept that that is part of life,and get on with it and do the best we can.
And most of all show empathy to the choices people make, and sometimes are forced to make.

 

[Broch]

What's better, being born to lead a life of suffer and torture and death, or not be born at all?

I live in the middle of farming country - quite frankly I don't see where this over-emotive concept comes from. I do not see a single example of suffering and torture but see cattle and sheep enjoying good pasture and feed every day without stress and in safety. They are killed quickly and without pain. I think it is preferable that these animals were given a rather idyllic life for a short time than were never born at all.

And, no, most livestock is not born from artificial insemination - just come and see how the tups are enjoying themselves in the field of ewes

 

[Prophecy]

You can read all the articles you like, and come to any conclusion you wish, as for the benefits of eating vegetables and plants, as humans we will never adapt to this, we are not designed to be vegans

You have literally said, forget about the scientific proof, opinion is more important. But beliefs have no bearing on the truth. Do you know how crazy that sounds? How would that work for anything else? ie. I believe that the earth is flat. All the evidence tells me that the earth is round but I don't care - I still want to believe it's flat.

Here's what health associations (scientific bodies) have to say about vegan and vegetarian diets

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.

Dietitians of Canada: A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.

The British National Health Service: With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

The British Nutrition Foundation: A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

The Dietitians Association of Australia: Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

The United States Department of Agriculture: Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.

The National Health and Medical Research Council: Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.

The Mayo Clinic: A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.

The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada: Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.

Harvard Medical School: Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

Feel free to google each of those quotes and there will be peer reviewed articles to back it up.

if we were we would never have evovled to stand up,(my opinion)

With all due respect, I don't care for opinion - I care for truth. The truth is that more and more scientists are concluding that the reason why we evolved with such large brains is due to starch and glucose in plants. But none of this matters. We shouldn't do things just because we did them in the past.

'Eating meat may have kick-started the evolution of bigger brains, but cooked starchy foods together with more salivary amylase genes made us smarter still.'

http://neurosciencenews.com/brain-evolution-carbs-2388/

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/682587

being a vegan, vegatarian is not a religion so no need to preach about it, as I have said it is a personal choice, it has nothing to do with animal cruelty neither

So we should only make a stand for religion? The freedoms that you and I enjoy today are all due to someone taking a stand. There are billions of sentient, feeling, emotional, living and breathing beings who are being exploited, tortured, mutilated and killed when there is absolutely no reason to do so in first world countries. If you were one of those beings, would you want people to just be silent and continue? Or would you want them to take a stand and try to make changes?[/QUOTE]

I am surprised no one has said plants feel things too, and we should stop eating them

Plants do not feel pain. They don't have a central nervous system or a brain and so they can only respond to external stimuli.

even in free environments animals have to be managed and culled to survive or they will vanish, yes there is animal cruelty in the world, animals are killed for their meat, ivory, their skins, their bones because misguided people think there is magic in them, a lot of pets are locked in houses all day, is that cruel, yes it is, and most of the dogs in this world are bred for design, just like we breed cattle and sheep, so obviously we should not keep dogs,,,?. if we didnt use our cars the use of the horse would not have been wiped out, we move on, we adapt, we survive, every now and again mother nature throws a curved ball at us, in storms, disease, adverse weather, drought etc,and we have to change and try to survive, because we are animals too, and we sometimes turn a blind eye to cruelty because otherwise we get to a dilemna, should we kill all the lions, tigers,dogs, because they eat other animals and that is cruel, or should we accept that that is part of life,and get on with it and do the best we can.
And most of all show empathy to the choices people make, and sometimes are forced to make.

Of course we need to survive! That's the whole point. We can actually survive *better* on a vegan diet. There would be more food for everyone. It's healthier. We can thrive on a vegan diet. That's what the science tells us. Yes there is a lot of cruelty in this world. Does that mean you should not try to minimise it? We have a choice and that choice starts with the supply and demand of the meat, dairy and egg industry. We can choose to not partake in it.

 

[Prophecy]

I live in the middle of farming country - quite frankly I don't see where this over-emotive concept comes from. I do not see a single example of suffering and torture but see cattle and sheep enjoying good pasture and feed every day without stress and in safety. They are killed quickly and without pain. I think it is preferable that these animals were given a rather idyllic life for a short time than were never born at all.

And, no, most livestock is not born from artificial insemination - just come and see how the tups are enjoying themselves in the field of ewes

We literally don't have the land to support all of the animals that we eat, to live in pastures like the farms you've seen. Those days are gone. Factory farming is very much a reality in the UK and the majority of birds (chickens, ducks, turkeys) are factory farmed in large scale industrial sheds. I've seen lots of footage. Here's a summary if you're brave enough;

Yes artificial insemination is massive. There isn't the time or logistical freedom for natural conception to go on all the time.

I used to say exactly the same things you did regarding the emotive language. If someone were to tell me 5 years ago that chickens were murdered I would have laughed. But look at any UK factory farming footage. Doesn't that look like a torturous life? Pain, disease, no freedom, death? How else would you describe that footage?

I know that if I knew I was going to be subjected to such a life, I would choose never being born.

If I said to you that I'm going to kill someone close to you in the middle of the night, would that be OK? What about if I said don't worry, I'll fire a bolt into their brain and then slit their throat afterwards so they won't feel anything. They won't even see it coming! Would that be OK?

Here's another, less emotive example.

Look at footage of pigs being slaughtered in those horrific conditions. Replace pigs with labradors. Would you use an emotive concept then? Words like 'torture', 'exploitation' and 'cruelty' and 'killing'?

I posted it in the last thread but I'll post it again here because it's such a great insight into why we have formed different mental bonds with certain groups of animals, and yet were indifferent about other animals being killed en masse.

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[dave89]

I don't get why everyone needs to put their views on to other people, you eat what you want for your own reasons thats your business not anyone elses.

 

[Prophecy]

I don't get why everyone needs to put their views on to other people, you eat what you want for your own reasons thats your business not anyone elses.

Because there's billions of victims involved? And they can't speak up for themselves? I'm not forcing anyone at gunpoint, I'm merely encouraging people to think about it and answering questions.

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[Janne]

If I disregard the pros snd cons with animal husbandry, one major negative is that to eat a varied vegan diet is that you eat more veg that has been shipped over vast distances.

Not the best for the environment.

Us living on Cayman have a huge carbon footprint as basically everything is imported from all across the world.
Crazy!

 

[Prophecy]

If I disregard the pros snd cons with animal husbandry, one major negative is that to eat a varied vegan diet is that you eat more veg that has been shipped over vast distances.

Not the best for the environment.

So which one is your argument against veganism? Because you've named quite a few and I've provided you with information to prove otherwise. So now the issue you have is with the carbon footprint? Does that mean you're doing everything possible in your own life to avoid energy waste? Are you marching in the streets about all of the issues you've raised? Do you walk to work in bare feet?

With respect, it seems to me, that you're making excuses because you simply like the taste of meat. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with liking the taste of meat! I know it can be delicious. But just be honest and say that's what it is.

Again, I honestly don't hold any ill will to you or anyone else that's chimed in to this discussion. I think you're probably a really good person and you're probably very loving and very kind. I blame the animal agricultural industry, advertising and society for programming us all into this mentality that we would die for our pets yet we don't think twice about paying someone to kill other species of animals for us.

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[mousey]

My wife is a vegetarian, the kids eat meat but can take or leave it, apparently I can get narky if I haven't eaten meat for a while [I don't see a difference, I think I'm permanently narky, however she sees a difference]. She cooks meaty dishes for me and the kids and without tasting it it's amazing how excellent those dishes are.

She had the view that if you could go out kill the animal, butcher it cook it and eat it yourself then that's alright by her. Personally I'd be more than happy to kill an animal to eat it [yes I have always found it interesting why it is not acceptable to eat your dog but that sheep in the field is fair game]. I'm not involved in farming, I do live in a rural area and know people who are involved, yes I know there are abhorrent practices within mass farming and that is far from ideal. So doing my part I but meat from places I know have treated animals with dignity, it also tastes better if an animal has had a quality life.

 

[Fadcode]

I am scared to become a vegan, as it might turn me into a fanatic...................I will stick to the varied diet that I have always enjoyed.

 

[Prophecy]

I am scared to become a vegan, as it might turn me into a fanatic...................I will stick to the varied diet that I have always enjoyed.

Oh come on - at least reply to some of my response to you. It's better to have a discussion surely. What do you think of the information I presented?

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[Prophecy]

Apologies - formatting issues.

 

[Prophecy]

My wife is a vegetarian, the kids eat meat but can take or leave it, apparently I can get narky if I haven't eaten meat for a while [I don't see a difference, I think I'm permanently narky, however she sees a difference]. She cooks meaty dishes for me and the kids and without tasting it it's amazing how excellent those dishes are.

She had the view that if you could go out kill the animal, butcher it cook it and eat it yourself then that's alright by her. Personally I'd be more than happy to kill an animal to eat it [yes I have always found it interesting why it is not acceptable to eat your dog but that sheep in the field is fair game]. I'm not involved in farming, I do live in a rural area and know people who are involved, yes I know there are abhorrent practices within mass farming and that is far from ideal. So doing my part I but meat from places I know have treated animals with dignity, it also tastes better if an animal has had a quality life.

Yeh I agree, obviously local pasture raised cows on a smallholding are way better than factory farmed meat. Hunting might even be better still. If everyone thought like that it would be great. But I suppose it comes down to affordability too. But vegans and vegetarians just take it one step further and say why stop there? Why not just leave meat off the plate altogether?

 

[dave89]

The problem we have is the scale of people involved, People eat too much in general and they rarely think about where food comes from or the impact they have. For intance the rise in popularity (and Price) of Quinoa has increase the living standards in Peru. If everybody stopped eating meat this would have the opposite effect on the Meat industry so you would have places like Brazil loosing millions of dollars.

We need to keep a balance I would personally like to see us grow more at home and eat more seasonally varied diets.I mean there must be thousands of species of fish and we only eat a small selection maybe 10-20. Then you have fashionable food like avacardos that have to be flown thousands of miles becasue they are all the rage on Instagram.

The other half won't eat rabbit, but would be happy to eat chicken its all down to how foods are viewed by the public.

 

[mousey]

Yeah sure affordability really comes into it, but that's the same for veggie and vegan too. To feed a family on processed carp whether vegetables or not is cheaper than buying 'organic' properly grown / reared crops. I'd rather have a plate of good food than a bucket of Macdonalds...

well why not just leave the meat altogether? - for me personally, yes, just the taste and texture alone is reason enough. My wife would say because without it I get narky, and she hasn't found a plant based alternative that reduces this.

 

[Broch]

Please don’t try and tell people that live and work in farming country what it’s like to live and work in farming country. I don’t disagree that there are good and bad practices in animal farming and we must make ethical choices. I only eat Welsh pasture raised lamb and beef, free range chicken etc. and, of course, I have to pay for it. I agree, we have to reduce our consumption if we want all rearing to be based on good husbandry. But, we cannot support our population on vegetables alone without a) importing from all over the world at great expense to the environment and/or b) substantial use of GM crops and pesticides that have done a great deal towards decimating our wildlife (which I support more than anything else).

I do my own research and make a habit of weaning out sensationalism, political motivated, biased and prejudice soap-box preaching.

I make an ethical judgement every time I look through the sights of my rifle and pull (or not) the trigger. I question my decision every time I skin and gut an animal. When I cannot do that anymore I will become vegetarian.

If the wild deer in our miniature Island were left to their own devices they would die of starvation and disease. If we didn’t cull rabbit you wouldn’t have vegetables to eat. There is no clear black and white argument here; you can fool yourself as much as you like.

If I said to you that I'm going to kill someone close to you in the middle of the night, would that be OK? What about if I said don't worry, I'll fire a bolt into their brain and then slit their throat afterwards so they won't feel anything. They won't even see it coming! Would that be OK?

Please don't ever again reply to me using language like this; if we were talking in the pub I would have just left you at the bar. Come to think of it ... tap, tap, tap - that's the sound of me walking away from this conversation.

 

[Fadcode]

I respect your choice to be a vegan, respect mine, I am not disagreeing with you, but I think you are a bit fanatical, look at the big picture, dont listen to the scientists, I was brought up on the philosophy "go to work on an egg", then scientists said eggs were bad for you, then a bit later they said eggs are ok, scientists are people and not always right, look at people in the world who survive in situations were plantlife is not an option, the artic tundra, the deserts, they cannot survive without meat, they have to kill to survive, I find nothing wrong with that, if i am attacked by a dog,bee, wasp, fly, I will kill it, i am not being cruel, I am surviving, now I know thats different from sheep, cattle, etc which offer no threat to me,(normally, but i have been chased by a few bulls) but thats life, and I dont mind it, if that means I am cruel then I am cruel, I can live with it, My brother is a fanatical Vegan, he wont even get in my car because it has leather seats, to me that is stupidity, would he refuse an organ transplant, a blood transfusion, I dont know . I know he spends a lot of time reading food labels to make sure what he eats is ok to him, do food labels lie?.Everyone(those that have an option) choose what and how they eat, survive, there are pros and cons in everything in life,everyone to their own.
Just one last point, vegetables are not all safe, lets not forget this, sugar which we only really started using after the Industrial revolution has probably killed more people than any meat, through obesity, diabetes, etc, cocaine another plant, hops for beer,and most other organic drugs kills quite a few too,
So if you feel you can live on vegetation alone, good go for it
Me I dont eat a lot of meat actually, but if I want meat, then meat I shall have.
Its all a matter of choice, I dont preach to vegans to get them to eat meat, and I dont expect vegans to preach to me, I am quite capable of finding out the benefits and cons of both diets..and making up my own mind..

 

[Prophecy]

Please don’t try and tell people that live and work in farming country what it’s like to live and work in farming country. I don’t disagree that there are good and bad practices in animal farming and we must make ethical choices. I only eat Welsh pasture raised lamb and beef, free range chicken etc. and, of course, I have to pay for it. I agree, we have to reduce our consumption if we want all rearing to be based on good husbandry. But, we cannot support our population on vegetables alone without a) importing from all over the world at great expense to the environment and/or b) substantial use of GM crops and pesticides that have done a great deal towards decimating our wildlife (which I support more than anything else).

I do my own research and make a habit of weaning out sensationalism, political motivated, biased and prejudice soap-box preaching.

I make an ethical judgement every time I look through the sights of my rifle and pull (or not) the trigger. I question my decision every time I skin and gut an animal. When I cannot do that anymore I will become vegetarian.

If the wild deer in our miniature Island were left to their own devices they would die of starvation and disease. If we didn’t cull rabbit you wouldn’t have vegetables to eat. There is no clear black and white argument here; you can fool yourself as much as you like.



Please don't ever again reply to me using language like this; if we were talking in the pub I would have just left you at the bar. Come to think of it ... tap, tap, tap - that's the sound of me walking away from this conversation.

Apologies, it was never my intention to upset you. It's just that sometimes we need a distinct parallel to bring to life what is really happening. Obviously I do understand that people around us are more important to us than most other animals - I am not making that argument.

Pasture raised stock still has its life taken from it early by way of a brutal death. And free-range doesn't mean a lot. Do you know what the regulations are for free-range chicken in the UK?