Value?

[Wayland]

Snip> Again no offence meant, <Snip

None taken, unlike some I could think of, when you poke a stick at something you usually have something worthwhile to say about a matter.

Snip> Go and look in the old Scouting books, we are doing much of what they did around 90 years ago <Snip

The odd thing is that I was thrown out of the cubs because I wasn't much of a conformist then either.

I must admit I started this thread a little mischievously because I was getting fed up of BG v RM threads and how sharp is sharp type stuff myself.

Snip>Maybe that was Waylands point in the first place ?
Perhaps he was stating the fact that his mate had wrecked a £300 goretex mountaineering jacket because he`d been practising a flint and steel fire lighting or sat too near the fire once too often. <Snip

Actually he said something to the effect that the old one had been washed a few too many times and wasn't working like it should.

 

[BigShot]

On the subject of scaring deer, here's how I understand it...

While deer might not see colour, and so wouldn't be scared off by your jacket just because it is yellow/orange/red/other...
...they DO see contrast though, and if you're wearing clothing that is much brighter (or much darker) than your surroundings you will stand out against it.

Anyone who is into black and white photography will understand this, in black and white, all colours are reduced to shades of grey, you could have a yellow hat, a green jacket, red trousers and blue gloves which would all look identical in black and white. By the same token you could have a green jacket that stood out more against the line of bushes you were in front of than someone else in a red one.

Much of it is down to colour intensity, brightness and so on. If you contrast against your surroundings (in brightness/intensity) you'll be seen, if not you're less likely to.

That said, I prefer greens and browns over brighter colours for a few reasons - one of which is not wanting to stand out a mile and ruin the views for other people. A bright orange anorak plodding across a majestic view certainly detracts from it a bit.


On the subject of new kit and old tried and tested stuff...
I'm completely sold on Merino baselayers and don't think I'll buy synthetic ones ever again.
Top layers, the wetter it gets the more I want synthetic.
For keeping warm when sitting around synthetic soon loses its appeal and I'd sooner have some good natural stuff (wool blanket, down bag, etc).

I think the most important point is not to be blinded by marketing and so on. Get what works for you and don't bother with the rest of it.

 

[Wayland]

Snip> That said, I prefer greens and browns over brighter colours for a few reasons - one of which is not wanting to stand out a mile and ruin the views for other people. A bright orange anorak plodding across a majestic view certainly detracts from it a bit. <Snip

That's my main reason as well, it's easier now with digital but I used to wait ages for luminous walkers to get out of my pictures when I used film

Snip> I think the most important point is not to be blinded by marketing and so on. Get what works for you and don't bother with the rest of it.

Can't argue with that.

 

[BigShot]

Haha - not ruining the view comes from photograph for me too.
I like empty landscapes (not that I shoot them much, I've only got 35mm and an old 9x6 folding Bessa which aren't the best for huge vistas - I might make a large format view camera some time though) so people are bad enough, but when they are bordering on being a lightsource I draw the line.

 

[rik_uk3]

At the same time though Rik there are plenty of people who I would describe as bushcrafters rather than campers. For those folk then hard wearing natural fibres are more practical for the sort of things they get up to.
Maybe that was Waylands point in the first place ?
Perhaps he was stating the fact that his mate had wrecked a £300 goretex mountaineering jacket because he`d been practising a flint and steel fire lighting or sat too near the fire once too often.
Many folk have turned to natural fibres because they`ve learnt this lesson themselves, I know I have.

Shiwie, you have missed the basic concept of what we do, we go camping nothing more, nothing less.

Why sit so close to a fire you would wreck a Gortex jacket, if the the fire is working why wear it? If the fire is working and your tarp is up you should not need it? If the fire is spitting enough to throw a coal hot enough to melt a synthetic jacket then you should look at your fire management because you are doing something wrong, but your not going to melt your coat or burst into flames. I've no problem with natural fibres, I like wool, but its not the be all and end all.


Flint and steel, friction fire lighting is great, its a skill and worth going for, but its not the end of the world if like most, you use a simple Bic lighter and please don't say most don't because in reality they they want a brew fast.

People have gone to the woods for many years looking at plants, fungi, natural shelter building and it was not deemed bushcraft, that phrase did not exist, so think hard, the next elderly person in their Gortex coat walking around the woods you see may have far more knowledge of the flora and fauna about them than you even though they are not dressed in green and proclaim they are a bushcrafter. They also seem to survive just fine

 

[Shewie]

I haven`t missed the point Rik, I used to go "camping" in the Lakes or Yorkshire Dales with my bright red jacket and yellow tent and cook meals over a little gas stove. I now have an interest in living comfortably outdoors with a minimum of kit (sometimes) and try to get more of an understanding of the natural world around me, hopefully learning plenty of skills along the way. Two totally different interests/hobbies in my book.

Bushcraft`s just a name somebody on the telly decided to use anyway but that`s for a whole different thread.

There`s nowt wrong with my fire management, I was just suggesting that might be a reason why Waylands mate was changing his jacket. I`ve been hit by plenty of sparks and I don`t exactly sit on top of the flames, wood fires spit sparks. No need to get on the offensive old bean.

I don`t use a Bic I have a Zippo

If I want to call myself a "bushcrafter" I will, and so will most of the other 10,000 members on here, if they didn`t then we wouldn`t have this place.

cheers anyway

 

[Claudiasboris]

I think that both "trad" and "technical" have their places and use both. When I'm doing expeditions with students I use modern technical bits of kit. When with cadets it's either fieldcraft in DPM or AT in modern stuff. If I want to build fires and shelters from natural resources then I don't want to hurt my lightweight tech gear so I'll wear something more suitable.

It doesn't mean that one is better than another, just more suited to different uses (for me). I am a gear freak, though.

I'm reminded of when I was on ML training and the instructor was telling us how important it was to make a good impression on clients/students by wearing and using the most up-to-date and technical equipment. As he finished he pulled on a very well-worn, thin woollen jumper with added holes!

Claudiasboris

 

[rik_uk3]

I haven`t missed the point Rik, I used to go "camping" in the Lakes or Yorkshire Dales with my bright red jacket and yellow tent and cook meals over a little gas stove. I now have an interest in living comfortably outdoors with a minimum of kit (sometimes) and try to get more of an understanding of the natural world around me, hopefully learning plenty of skills along the way. Two totally different interests/hobbies in my book.

Bushcraft`s just a name somebody on the telly decided to use anyway but that`s for a whole different thread.

There`s nowt wrong with my fire management, I was just suggesting that might be a reason why Waylands mate was changing his jacket. I`ve been hit by plenty of sparks and I don`t exactly sit on top of the flames, wood fires spit sparks. No need to get on the offensive old bean.

I don`t use a Bic I have a Zippo

If I want to call myself a "bushcrafter" I will, and so will most of the other 10,000 members on here, if they didn`t then we wouldn`t have this place.

cheers anyway

Does a red jacket and yellow tent make you less comfortable than when camping in the woods? The sparks to jacket thing is a load of hot air to be honest, rarely happens with a good fire. I've put holes in nylon track suit bottoms, but not from a fire, but from a badly made rolly fag. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the minute you leave home with the intention of staying out overnight you have gone camping. You've not gone bushcrafting, what is that supposed to mean? You wear green and camp under a tarp the same as I did in the Scouts back in the 60's? The whole bushcraft label is going a step too far, its all getting rather silly now. Grown men, half a mile from their car dressed in a grands worth of kit and worrying about what kit to buy for the next winter season, all perhaps -10 (and thats being generous) of it is just daft.

We are fast making ourselves a walking parody, a bit of a laugh when viewed by the outside world, and if you want that image then go for it; going around in all you kit with a pouch of flour for your bannock bread etc is one step closer to just being a sort of 19th century woodsman re-enactment group. Its not for me.

Richard

 

[big_swede]

I think the you've lost the thread here, wasn't the topic on VALUE, not on trad vs technical?

Clearly wayland succeded being comfy for less pennies than his fellow guy in expensive kit. Wasn't that the issue? Not bright vs dull, or wool versus membranes?

We are fast making ourselves a walking parody, a bit of a laugh when viewed by the outside world, and if you want that image then go for it; going around in all you kit with a pouch of flour for your bannock bread etc is one step closer to just being a sort of 19th century woodsman re-enactment group. Its not for me.

What is for you then? What do you put in the word bushcraft, or what do you seek going into the woods? What are your goals with your ventures? No sarcasm, honest questions really.

Ps Rik, funny story, found a nice brass radius stove at my mums house, happy as a lark as I always wanted an old school kerosene stove, it turned out to be a radius 40, a meth stove! :bluThinki

 

[Shewie]

Fair enough Rik, everybody makes what they want from it at the end of the day. It`s the same as any other hobby/sport/interest, there is an element of "all the gear and no idea" but what`s wrong with buying quality apparel which is proven in the field ?

If it happens to be a dull greeny brown colour then that`s just a bonus in my eye.

 

[Treemonk]

So bushcraft is dead then... long live bushcraft.

I am a parady, a wanabe, a walter mitty re-enactor, an embaressment....

But, you know what? This last weekend I hiked accross hills on my own, built a shelter for myself, cooked -shudder- bannock over a fire. It was tasty. I dressed in green. I like green. I botanised, I practiced skills of the camper, the woodsman, the forester (yes, there is a difference), the ecologist. I was happy and tired.

The weekend before I slept in a yellow tent. I didn't eat bannock. I still dressed in green. I like green. Thankyou. I practiced skills of the smith, the sheet metal worker, the woodsman (again), the forester (again), the botanist (again). I was happy and tired.

I consider myself a bushcrafter, it's a handy catch-all title for a hodge podge of subjects. I think we really all know that there is a difference between bushcraft and setting up a yellow tent. I camp but I am not just a camper or hiker. I learn and I practice. I wear green a lot - but like I said - I like green. I use what works, I fix, I bodge, I bend to my environment and use what works.

now I have to go do the washing up...

 

[ASLAN]

To my mind Value equals a bit of gear that does the job you want it to and over its lifetime costs little. Whether that's a bit of modern gear in a technical fabric or not is irrelevant. To some "bushcrafters" though it would very much be the point from the impression I have.

I was out over the weekend solo camping high on the North Pennine moors. Most of my gear I've had for years but it would have been described as modern when bought so to me it represented good value. Thinking about it the only traditional fabric item of clothing I was wearing were wool socks - and they were new so whether they represent good value only time will tell.

Home made gear can work great and certainly gives a great deal of satisfaction to use. But equally it can be plain rubbish and no amount of kidding yourself will make it otherwise. I carved a spoon the other day and was real pleased with the result having lovingly sanded and polished it to a fine finish. Was it better than what I could have bought in any outdoor shop for a few pence? Probably not but it gave great satisfaction in making and using it.

 

[Kerne]

I wear a lot of new gear because it is lighter than traditional stuff and I am usually moving - i.e. on a multi-day walk. If I am saying in one place, I often use a mixture of old and new - I like my wooly jumpers around the fire but I can't justify the bulk and the 3lb weight in my pack when a down gilet does the job for less than a pound and packs down to next to nothing. I suppose it's all to do with the labels (not the ones on the kit! ) Am I a "walker" or a "bushcrafter" when I'm walking, wild camping/bivvying in the woods, stopping en route to watch a deer ... etc. etc.

As for the colours - I like green and brown because I like to be "anonymous". Once, when on a bushy course, we came across a group of HF holiday walkers - all pinks and pastels - who stuck out like sore thumbs. Instinctively, it seemed, we took a couple of steps back into the trees and they passed by without noticing us.

On the other hand - I have just taken delivery of a Bison Bushcraft Guide Shirt (as worn by Wayland in the pics!) - is it part of the "uniform"? I don't know - I just know that I can't wait to get out there and wear it (and I know that SWMBO hates it).

 

[Jacko]

I love my wool and natural materials as well, mix and match when best suits. Just been to Scotland for annual winter climbing trip and wore woolen base layers and Paramo on top-worked well indeed on top of the Cairngorms!
Also have been lying in an op for ten days and nights which turned into a mini swimming pool - what got me through that? A Buffalo sytem next to my skin, and I know that wool insulates when wet but when it freezes as well, well thats like lying in an ice blanket.
Still love to have a bimble in my Swannie or a night camping by the fire, but end of day Horses for courses.

 

[Wayland]

To my mind Value equals a bit of gear that does the job you want it to and over its lifetime costs little. Whether that's a bit of modern gear in a technical fabric or not is irrelevant. < Snip

Call me stingy if you like but I start thinking something is good value when it's given a few years service and looks like it will give a few good years more.

Snip> I carved a spoon the other day and was real pleased with the result having lovingly sanded and polished it to a fine finish. Was it better than what I could have bought in any outdoor shop for a few pence? Probably not but it gave great satisfaction in making and using it.

But isn't that part of the value?

Snip> On the other hand - I have just taken delivery of a Bison Bushcraft Guide Shirt (as worn by Wayland in the pics!) - is it part of the "uniform"? I don't know - I just know that I can't wait to get out there and wear it (and I know that SWMBO hates it).

The first thing I did was mod mine a bit like I do with most of my kit. I'm not into uniforms. I think you'll like it though, it's become one of my favourite shirts.



The label "bushcraft" that we often apply to a certain skill set is just that, a label.

Someone else might give it a different label but it doesn't change the skill set.

Equally someone else might label a different skill set "bushcraft" but that doesn't alter the label.

"Bushcraft" is a concept and that concept will appear different for each person that considers it.

It is about as real as a label saying "Schrödinger's cat" on this box.

I don't consider myself a "bushcrafter", that would be far too narrow a definition, but I do apply the label "bushcraft" to some of the skills I use from time to time.

I'm sure someone else would apply different, equally valid labels to the same skills, but I don't give a wet fig.

 

[helixpteron]

...... but I don't give a wet fig.

Er'........ Is that a wet fig which you carried in a leather pouch, cut with a knapped flint, and scooped up with a hand carved spoon?

 

[Karl5]

I believe this comes back to the same answer as all of the threads similar to this:
In the end, "value" is different to each and every one of us. A very personal thing, if you like.
And the same applies to "bushcraft".
We're all different, and have to expect others to not having the same opinion about "value" or "bushcraft" as ourselves.
Nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I find it excellent! How else would we get any diversity and all of the advantages following it?
I carry "modern", brightly coloured stuff when I want/need, and more "traditional" stuff in subdued colours when I want/need. And more often than not, it'll be a mix of both.
All of it is highly valued..... By me! And being the one bearing the consequences of my own values/choices, I believe my own opinion is worth the most... For me!

/ Karl

 

[BigShot]

Er'........ Is that a wet fig which you carried in a leather pouch, cut with a knapped flint, and scooped up with a hand carved spoon?

Ah - bit it would have been a dry fig if it was carried in a GORE TEX pouch! (Preferably a day-glo orange one).

 

[Boston973]

This is actually a fun thread that really hits home. You see since getting out of the Army I started having a anual camping trip of anywere between one or two weeks. The first time i went out since being home was with my nephew. Only a few years younger than me.

He had my brothers gear and was loaded to the hilt with stuff. I had what i could fit in my assoult pack and half of my kit was stuff i took with me from the infantry. I set up my poncho lean-to, Laid down some pine branches and made some ramen in a canteen cup.

He set up a tent and pulled out a mess kit and had pancakes. I slept rapped in a poncho liner (my Woobee) He had a 200 dollar sleeping bag. I was reminded that as cool as all the times i slept outdoos was in the Army is was not fun. Next year i had a tent and all that other stuff. But i got reasonable gear not overpriced and by no means the best.

A good example is that i prefer gear i can keep basically forever. So my wife knows that if she wants to give me a present then all she has to do is go to my favorites open the folder called wish list and by me something from that folder. One of the items in there i recently removed was a 8 x 10 tarp around 60 dollars,i really wanted it. I must say i still really want it. But i was able to get a cheap one from a Walmart 8 x 10 tarp for around twelve dollars. I will eventually buy the tarp but untill then this one will do.

As for traditional gear vs store bought modern stuff. I would say the traditional would come with a sence of attachment and pride that i dont get from your modern pricey stuff. I rip my craps army pants and cotton long johns on some sharp rocks wile heading down a gulch. No big deal i pull out a sowing kit and patch it up . It adds character and becomes an even cooler bit of gear. Same thing happens but this time its my gortex jacket and poly-pro. then I am not a happy camper.

I dont think Wayland is not saying cheaper is better but that sometimes its just as good. Look at the Mora knives that half the people here love so much. They are not nearly as good as a Falkniven but they catch up fast when you consider the cost diffrence.

 

[BorderReiver]

Even though I now prefer natural to synthetic, I must speak in defence of the monetary value of some synthetic gear.

I have used Rohan gear for many years and still have some shirts and trousers that I bought about 20 years ago. The airlight fabric is getting a bit thin now but the clothes are still wearable for rough. They were expensive when I bought them but it works out to a small amount per year.