Value?

[Wayland]

A couple of years ago I spent a couple of days out with an old friend I hadn't seen for a while. It wasn't a photo trip so no pictures unfortunately. We were camping out and the conditions were cold but fairly dry.

He had turned out in state of the art modern outdoor gear and he seemed somewhat nonplussed when he looked at my gear which was a bit more traditional and a fair bit of it home made.

He mentioned a few times how good a deal he had got when buying such and such and at one point he even suggested that I could buy nylon stuff sacks that were cheap and would be much more practical than the cotton or leather ones I packed things in. I suspect he thought I made my gear because I couldn't afford to buy new stuff.

In the evening he hung his modern jacket up inside out for a while, to air it he said, and had difficulty lighting his complicated stove while I hung my billy over a small fire.

It was a clear night and the temperature plummeted. It wasn't long before he was off to his tent to wrap up in his sleeping bag. I stayed up a bit longer and watched a few falling stars with a bottle of Stags Breath as the fire burned down.

We had met up in separate vehicles and done a shuffle so we could do a coast walk with a vehicle at each end, by the second evening we were back with the vehicles.

He was soon changing into clean kit from the boot of his car but I was still comfortable in my merino base layer and traditional kit.

As the evening started to cool again I lent him a wool poncho and a blanket to line the back of his chair and he stayed out a bit later that night.

This little tale has come up because I bumped into him again the other day and he asked me if I was "still going out in that home made stuff?"

As a matter of fact quite a bit of it is still the same. He however was on his way to buy a brand new jacket in the sales.

Some people will just never get it.

 

[marshall4771]

Wise words oh Great Sage

 

[Doc]

It does flag up the danger of changing kit all the time. I suppose it's good to try out new gear but there is a lot to be said for having kit that's familiar

I find old well tried kit very reassuring. You know where the pockets are and what's in them, and its a lot quicker to put up a familiar tent or put a brew on with something you use a lot.

I've known Wayland a few years now, and his kit is much the same. Certainly his sharps are.

I think fashion drives a lot of outdoor gear. Currently waist length waterproof jackets seem all the rage, but I can't help feeling an older hip length jacket is more practical.

Wool baselayers are interestingly currently in fashion - as recommended by Rutsrum in the 1940s.....

A lot of the latest gear in the outdoor shops is TBH less than ideal:

-clothes come in colours that frighten the deer
- modern stoves/cooksets are pretty useless with an open fire
-ultralight fabrics have some advantages but are much less robust than traditional gear
-many modern items cannot be repaired easily
-
-

 

[ASLAN]

Have there been any developments in outdoor wear/equipment since the 10th centuary that do the job better? Do you beleive that the great mass of consumers are total idiots who can't tell what works and what doesn't? Perhaps you also have a blinkered viewpoint on this.

Of course there are "gear freaks", always has been and always will be. They are the sort of folk who are first in when anything new comes out on the principal if it's new it must be better. Wiser heads wait a while and see how it works out in the long run.

By all means enjoy the outdoors in the way that you do and derive satisfaction from practicing old skills - but it isn't the only way.

 

[rik_uk3]

The thing is Wayland, that your trip can me mirrored with opposite results. If your mate could not get his modern (multi fuel?) stove going in under two minutes he did not know his stove or how to use it. I've been at camps and several times people have said 'can I pop this on your stove' because their hobo stove was playing up (these were not newbies either).

If Ventile is that good we would all still be using it? Thousands dumped Ventile in favour of PU nylon and later Gortex, why? Because it kept them drier if truth be known.

Dry bag or leather possibles pouch (often with a plastic bag liner)?

I can understand the mind set people can get into when camping, sitting there near the fire with traditional gear and feeling really nice about using it, it sort of fits their camping style.

If traditional or retro gear is your thing then knock yourself out and go for it, but lets stop knocking all the newer materials; a lot of it works better than the old gear.

 

[treadlightly]

Wayland,

You describe what sounds like a two day walking trip with one night away from cars and therefore you would be carrying everything you needed for that night on your back. I don't know what time of year it was but what would your clothing list have been given the need for everything to be pretty lightweight?

I ask as I enjoy using "traditional" clothing and am experimenting in using as much of it as possible on walking trips without breaking my back with the weight.

For instance, the wool poncho. Did you walk with this or was it kept in the car? What waterproof did you take etc? Ventile? Or maybe tweed?

 

[Tadpole]

I think people fixate on new stuff thinking new=better and it is hard to see how it couldn't be, what with all the money that is spent on research. But if you compare a few months/years “research” in labs and cold rooms with a few hundred years “out in the field” first hand experience, you will see that the old guys knew more than we give them credit for.
Some times old is best because it evolved from something that didn’t quite work in to something that did work Rather than from something that should work to something that should work at a price people are willing to pay, and allow the research company recover the cost of inventing a better mouse trap.

prime example
Modern gear on a mountain is as good as the stuff Malory wore in 1924 , but is not as comfortable nor does it offer the same level of movement, and unlike modern gear the traditional climbing gear did not smell as bad after you had worn it for a few days.

 

[BorderReiver]

It does flag up the danger of changing kit all the time. I suppose it's good to try out new gear but there is a lot to be said for having kit that's familiar

I find old well tried kit very reassuring. You know where the pockets are and what's in them, and its a lot quicker to put up a familiar tent or put a brew on with something you use a lot.

I've known Wayland a few years now, and his kit is much the same. Certainly his sharps are.

I think fashion drives a lot of outdoor gear. Currently waist length waterproof jackets seem all the rage, but I can't help feeling an older hip length jacket is more practical.

Wool baselayers are interestingly currently in fashion - as recommended by Rutsrum in the 1940s.....

A lot of the latest gear in the outdoor shops is TBH less than ideal:

-clothes come in colours that frighten the deer
- modern stoves/cooksets are pretty useless with an open fire
-ultralight fabrics have some advantages but are much less robust than traditional gear
-many modern items cannot be repaired easily
--

1. Deer are colour blind. People wearing bright colours probably make a lot of noise and move clumsily.

2. People using modern cooksets probably couldn't start an open fire suitable for use with any cookwear.

3. Yep

4. All modern items are meant to thrown away and replaced with this years model.

Otherwise I agree with every word.

 

[Wayland]

Wise words oh Great Sage

Sage... That's what the smell is..

I'm not comparing stuff from the 10th century, just the stuff I grew up with on the fells of Westmorland and in some cases still use.

However I can tell you that 10th century gear does work remarkably though, all but the boots.

I guess like most people I fell prey to the salesmen in outdoor shops a few times when they said this or that was the best thing since sliced bread. Where is all that super modern gear I bought now? Most of it fell apart and was very uncomfortable to actually use so it got binned.

I've still got a few bits that do actually work so I'm not some type of Luddite and I never said there was only one way, the whole point of my story was that some people do believe there is only one way, the way they are sold every day in the shops, adverts and magazines.

Unfortunately having worked in retail for my sins when younger, I can tell you that a huge number of consumers will simply buy what the salesman tells them to buy, draw your own conclusions from that.

I don't think I had ever heard of Ventile before the eighties Rik, as you suggest, it has it's place but it's not a wonder fabric. Most of the gear I grew up with was actually wool or canvas. I did have a nylon knapsack though, I quite liked it until it fell to bits.

 

[Tadpole]

Unfortunately having worked in retail for my sins when younger, I can tell you that a huge number of consumers will simple buy what the salesman tells them to buy, draw your own conclusions from that.

I was told by a friend/salesman in a famous Bristol Fishing tackle shop that 90% of the flies are designed to catch the fisher man and not the fish. Camping gear is I guess no different

 

[BorderReiver]

The thing is Wayland, that your trip can me mirrored with opposite results. If your mate could not get his modern (multi fuel?) stove going in under two minutes he did not know his stove or how to use it. I've been at camps and several times people have said 'can I pop this on your stove' because their hobo stove was playing up (these were not newbies either).

If Ventile is that good we would all still be using it? Thousands dumped Ventile in favour of PU nylon and later Gortex, why? Because it kept them drier if truth be known.

Dry bag or leather possibles pouch (often with a plastic bag liner)?

I can understand the mind set people can get into when camping, sitting there near the fire with traditional gear and feeling really nice about using it, it sort of fits their camping style.

If traditional or retro gear is your thing then knock yourself out and go for it, but lets stop knocking all the newer materials; a lot of it works better than the old gear.

Rik, I think that Waylands post highlights the modern problem of believing the advertising.

A lot of people are seduced by "the latest thing" whether or not it's any better than the last one.

Ventile is absolutely the best thing for short term bimbling about at low levels. I wear my ventile jacket every day. But, I would not take it into the hills. That's when Goretex and Event and the like come into their own as they are light, dry quickly and fold up small to fit in the pack when it's not raining.

Base layers now. I have all sorts of wonder fabric bases. Which one do I wear almost exclusively? Merino wool. Comfortable, non smelly after prolonged wear, great wicking.

The main thing though, is to get out and enjoy yourself with whatever gear lights your candle.

 

[Wayland]

Wayland,

You describe what sounds like a two day walking trip with one night away from cars and therefore you would be carrying everything you needed for that night on your back. I don't know what time of year it was but what would your clothing list have been given the need for everything to be pretty lightweight?

I ask as I enjoy using "traditional" clothing and am experimenting in using as much of it as possible on walking trips without breaking my back with the weight.

For instance, the wool poncho. Did you walk with this or was it kept in the car? What waterproof did you take etc? Ventile? Or maybe tweed?

The wool poncho lives in the van or sometimes goes camping where it doubles as an extra blanket.

My clothing on the trip consisted of a merino base layer, wool shirt and moleskin trousers with canvas gaiters.

In my pack I had a heavier wool shirt for when we stopped and an issue poncho which only gets used for downpours, bivvying and sitting on. In lighter rain I just rely on the wool to do what it's been doing for millions of years.

When creating the Buffalo system, Hamish realised that trying to stay dry was less important than being warm, comfortable and drying out fast. Well that's what wool tends to do, it works for me.

I used to use a Goretex type bivi bag but that has since been replaced with a Ventile one I knocked up myself. It's only needed to stop stuff that goes around the poncho / tarp anyway and it's much less clammy.

My bergan is canvas but it's wrapped around inside with a closed cell kip mat which keeps most stuff dry and the sleeping bag is packed inside the bivi bag for extra safety.

Apart from that I was just carrying a billy can packed with food, a cup and a water bottle because we were camping on the edge of the beaches so fires weren't a problem.

I don't suppose many people would call it "lightweight" but it was a weight I was comfortable carrying.

 

[Doc]

I know deer are colour blind - it's a phrase for anything garishly coloured, like the Dress Maclachlan tartan, for instance.

Though having said that, I remember something in Sporting Rifle suggesting that washing clothes in modern washing powder is a bad idea as the brightening agents make you more visible. I think they were claiming deer see wavelengths we don't. As flourescent clothes will appear very bright even on a monochrome camera there might be something in it.

I guess one place that modern kit is good for is the fast and light mountain trip. You can get your pack weight down very low indeed. I think it's taken to extremes though- a while ago I nearly bought some titanium tent pegs before I saw sense - the weight saving was not worth it, and why bother about saving two ounces when I'm carrying 3 or 4 pounds of excess fat.

 

[rik_uk3]

As an only child I'll admit to being spoiled, my mom would go into the local Blacks shop on Broad Street Birmingham and say 'Whats the best XXX' etc, that's how I got Ventile way back then in the late 60's or my first Primus stove and Bulldog billy cans; all expensive kit at the time.

Is my Hex 3 better than my old (wish I had it now) Blacks mountain tent or Force Ten 3 or 5? No, its not. The Hex is a great tent, I love it, but the Force Ten will stand its ground longer, shed water just as well, and no condensation. I use the Hex because I like the design and its lighter in weight and not because its better (I'll be using the Force Ten next weekend). So, I'm not a modern gear freak, or a Luddite. I'll take a 21st century multi fuel stove and or a 90 year old Primus with me depending on mood, I like them, I rarely take gas stoves because of poor cold weather performance, not because I don't like the design/looks of the stove, I'll use a real Trangia over a Swedish Army set because if just performs better simple as that plus if you limit yourself to a wood fire whether hobo or open fire you limit your camping opportunities to woodland and miss all the beauty of places like the Beacons or Snowdonia.

A lot of kit choice can come down to fashion trends but also the ritual of setting up camp and the style you camp in. If your in a nice woodland area there is nothing nicer that pitching a tent or tarp or both and lighting a fire and getting a brew on, for me the ritual of lighting an old stove or lantern is just as important and when that stove or lantern is decades old, it fits in with its surroundings just fine, its meant to be there more that a Jetboil or UCO candle lantern as neither have any soul.

Dressing like a 'Bushcrafter' and looking like a reenactor of another age is a fine line you walk, be careful you don't miss the bigger picture when you make your choices

 

[JohnL]

Whilst I enjoy using and learning about old kit, if I am doing some serious backpacking the last thing I need is waterlogged wollen jumpers. Heavy bulky kit. A good modern thermal top (I use a thermal running top) may get smelly but it is always warm & dries really quickly. Used in conjunction with a fleece and gore tex jacket I believe it is way better than wool. The only wool I normaly wear is socks. If your in to going up mountain etc. I would say it is essential. People die due to innapropriate clothing.

The image I get of bushcrafter from this website is people who enjoy a gentle bimble in to the woods, set up camp & have a few days doing crafts & stuff round a fire etc. Hence the reason they have no problems with natural fibres. The more energetic you get, the more you see its limitations.

With regard to repairing kit, I see no reason why you cant patch up modern stuff. I would find it easier to stick a patch on a fleece than darn a woolen jumper thats all unraveling.

Just my opinion.

 

[EdS]

mix and match - I've got a load of "bushcraft" gear and a loads of "mountain" gear.

First choise for thermals - merino, over either a thin fleece (Keela) or a merino mid layer Summer and winter, bimbling, Scotish winter climbs or on MRT call outs. Outer "goretex" type thing or ventile depending on what I'm doing.

Other layers added as needed - depending on what I'm doing.

 

[Wayland]

Snip> Dressing like a 'Bushcrafter' and looking like a reenactor of another age is a fine line you walk, be careful you don't miss the bigger picture when you make your choices

I've never worried too much how I look, so long as I'm comfortable.

Most people are very quick to judge me by their own perceptions but that's their problem not mine.

 

[rik_uk3]

I've never worried too much how I look, so long as I'm comfortable.

Most people are very quick to judge me by their own perceptions but that's their problem not mine.

Not aimed at you Wayland, just a general description of those members who feel the need to wear the uniform and be identified as 'bushcrafters' which in the UK is a really daft description of our style of camping.

Go and look in the old Scouting books, we are doing much of what they did around 90 years ago, lets not get carried away with what we do when out for a camp, we are just, broadly speaking a bunch of big old style boy scouts and there is nothing wrong in that by any means so long as we keep it in perspective. Did my scout leader/School teacher go on and on about bannock recipes? No of course not, you get the basic idea and develop it from there, you improvise and experiment.

Sadly many people these days seem to have lost the plot when it come to self education, research or when it comes to thinking for themselves, they want instant solutions to a question. This urge is perhaps why I play devils advocate so often, ask people to use the search facility and not just ask the same old questions, also why I sometimes question statements given by older more experienced members which could by some be read as the only way when if fact its not.

Again no offence meant, but think we have to look on what we say and how others see it. If its fact, no problem, if its a variable then lets all think on because what we write here is here a long time.

 

[Steve13]

Have to agree with this one, I wear wool , canvas, leather and ventile because it is warm and comfy, I like greens and browns cos I like to blend in when out in the country rather than stand out like a sore thumb

I don't realy care what other people think I look like, I just know the stuff I have works in all conditions so I cann enjoy the outdoors not endure it

 

[Shewie]

.......... , just a general description of those members who feel the need to wear the uniform and be identified as 'bushcrafters' which in the UK is a really daft description of our style of camping.

At the same time though Rik there are plenty of people who I would describe as bushcrafters rather than campers. For those folk then hard wearing natural fibres are more practical for the sort of things they get up to.
Maybe that was Waylands point in the first place ?
Perhaps he was stating the fact that his mate had wrecked a £300 goretex mountaineering jacket because he`d been practising a flint and steel fire lighting or sat too near the fire once too often.
Many folk have turned to natural fibres because they`ve learnt this lesson themselves, I know I have.