R
RICKY RASPER
Guest
This is one of those rare occasions were smaller is most definitely better. All other things being equal a shorter blade has less chance of snapping.
UK vs USA
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Actually I think you are missing a couple of points.
One, we do not share the outdoors in the UK with a predator that weights 400pounds, and a few others.
Two, we cannot hunt, so dressing large game not such a big deal.
Three, it was not that long ago, that the west was wild, so the weapon bit might be a bit on the money. A little more cultural than practical reasoning.
Four, lets be honest if we could carry, we would carry. I know for a fact that my leatherman would live on my belt in the US. Maybe with a neck knife somewhere as well.
Five, we follow different paths, mentors, or heroes.
One, we do not share the outdoors in the UK with a predator that weights 400pounds, and a few others.
Two, we cannot hunt, so dressing large game not such a big deal.
Three, it was not that long ago, that the west was wild, so the weapon bit might be a bit on the money. A little more cultural than practical reasoning.
Four, lets be honest if we could carry, we would carry. I know for a fact that my leatherman would live on my belt in the US. Maybe with a neck knife somewhere as well.
Five, we follow different paths, mentors, or heroes.
some interesting points but in the interest of discussion:
1. - surely if you know you are in the situation where you may come across a big beasty - you carry a shotty?
2. - We can hunt in the UK - but as with most things it is wrapped up in legal nonsense and red tape. even then you won't find many people in the UK who use a big knife to dress game. - most will use skinners around the 4" mark IMO
3. - can't argue with you on that but by that logic, it wasn't that much longer ago that we could carry for a similar purpose.
4. - we can carry - albeit a sub 3" non locking folder - can't say I honestly come up against something which requires more unless I'm out in the bush.
5. - true that - each to his own IMO.
Andy
The Uk was fairly wild until the 1900s
Until 1920, anyone who wanted to could buy a pistol, without any problem (by anyone I mean anyone over the age of 14) the licence was available at every post office for a few shillings. And until that time owning a pistol was a right all people had in England and Wales (not sure about Scotland but their bill of rights were laid out in the Claim of Right Act 1689.)
forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
And even if so. If I was expecting a bear or a boar to attack me I'd pick a spear (unless the 12 ga pump was available). For a big cat *maybe* one of the macho sized kukris might come in handy.
One can dress out a moose with a mora. No need to a micro-sword, no need at all.
/Par
We got black bear here but they are not a big problem unless they have cubs and no matter what the game commition says we got cougers in PA but I feel fine with a 4 inch blade. It at least gives you a chance to defend yourself. I heard a story where a guy got attacked by a cougar and fought it off using only a small folder but he lost an eye. And like I said not many people carry large knives around here. I think it is more personal preference than anything at least in this area.
One more thing, I thing a 4 inch blade, a crooked knife and an axe is the way to go in my area like someone else said. It has been tested and proved by history and my native ansesters. But I think it matters more that you know how to use what ever you carry. You see some survival "experts" with a large knife and they obviously struggle to use them effectivly but on the other hand you can watch an indiginous man use nothing but a macheti or parang to carve a beautifull paddle or make fire or carve a bow.
One more thing, I thing a 4 inch blade, a crooked knife and an axe is the way to go in my area like someone else said. It has been tested and proved by history and my native ansesters. But I think it matters more that you know how to use what ever you carry. You see some survival "experts" with a large knife and they obviously struggle to use them effectivly but on the other hand you can watch an indiginous man use nothing but a macheti or parang to carve a beautifull paddle or make fire or carve a bow.
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Have to say I agree, its best to learn to use whichever tool you happen to own.Whats best for me is not always what is best for someone else.Understanding how to use your knife to do a large range of tasks well for you is the most important thing in my opinion regardles of size or style
Sorry should have clarified my point, I meant more from a legal point of view. It harder to stop people carrying, when there is a legit reason.
Since 1801, you have not been able to hunt in England. What we do now is pest control, or land management.
If you have one knife, and one of the jobs is deer, or bufflo dressing, would a mora be your first choice?
1920 is when the Wild West ended. There were still bits of the country undiscovered. Even now, there are parts of the states, you can walk into, and live off the land for the rest of your life. Man has effected every square foot of the UK.
We have never been able to carry for defense in this country. In fact our laws actually say we cannot. I would be interested to know if we have ever had the right.
I agree, this fits our country. The question was why the different between two countries. My arguement is that in the US you stand more of a chance of needing a Mora as your base knife. The US has plants more dangerous than our most dangerous animal.
Not sure, but was the UK settled about 30,000 years ago. The US has only been around for 200. We cannot name our Nessmuk, was my point. The Mora is not named for its designer, but the Bowie is. Ray has proved my point he has met Native Americans, who practice Bushcraft. You cannot do that in the UK.
R
RICKY RASPER
Guest
Thank your lucky stars that you dont live in ulster were you require a full fac for any air weapon . Steel bb guns included!
From my experience, in the US you have people using a wide range of knives, both in terms of size and shape. Some people like larger knives, others carry smaller ones.
I was shocked when I first started visiting UK bushcraft sites, and discovered that nearly everyone uses a 4 inch scandi grind knife.
I find statements like “We too used to go for bigger knives until we accepted that people in older and ancient cultures used the smaller knife to a greater advantage and for more tasks” to be arrogant and very condescending to the many cultures around the world which actually use larger knives. I find it hard to believe that in the last half century, as more and more people began to live in cities, they somehow discovered more about what the “best” bushcraft knife is.
The truth is that people who spend large amounts of time in the woods will develop their own personal preferences when it comes to knives, and those preferences will vary from person to person.
Most knives will function perfectly well for all bushcraft tasks, from 3 inch blades, to 7 inch blades and above. It all comes down to which knife feels best in your hand, and how much practice you have had with it. The outcome is that people adopt different types of knives.
When you see a particular trend to use either large knives of a specific type or knives that have to be below 4 inches and with a scandi grind, there is some kind of cultural motivation, which overrides people’s personal preferences. Lack of variation in knife design is more of an indicator of a cultural driving force (either tradition or television) than of practical considerations. This can be easily observed by looking back in hisotry and noting the large range of knife lengths and styles used successfully by many cultures.
If I had to guess, I would say that in this case the cultural consideration is Ray Mears, a person of whom most people in the US know very little, while his programs have shaped the views on bushcraft of many people in the UK.
I was shocked when I first started visiting UK bushcraft sites, and discovered that nearly everyone uses a 4 inch scandi grind knife.
I find statements like “We too used to go for bigger knives until we accepted that people in older and ancient cultures used the smaller knife to a greater advantage and for more tasks” to be arrogant and very condescending to the many cultures around the world which actually use larger knives. I find it hard to believe that in the last half century, as more and more people began to live in cities, they somehow discovered more about what the “best” bushcraft knife is.
The truth is that people who spend large amounts of time in the woods will develop their own personal preferences when it comes to knives, and those preferences will vary from person to person.
Most knives will function perfectly well for all bushcraft tasks, from 3 inch blades, to 7 inch blades and above. It all comes down to which knife feels best in your hand, and how much practice you have had with it. The outcome is that people adopt different types of knives.
When you see a particular trend to use either large knives of a specific type or knives that have to be below 4 inches and with a scandi grind, there is some kind of cultural motivation, which overrides people’s personal preferences. Lack of variation in knife design is more of an indicator of a cultural driving force (either tradition or television) than of practical considerations. This can be easily observed by looking back in hisotry and noting the large range of knife lengths and styles used successfully by many cultures.
If I had to guess, I would say that in this case the cultural consideration is Ray Mears, a person of whom most people in the US know very little, while his programs have shaped the views on bushcraft of many people in the UK.
if you said that in our local supermarket(walmart) an employee you direct you to the knife section of the store.
"It's next aisle over from the guns." Shame US immigration rules are so biased against white Brits (unless they have enormous amounts of disposable income).
I want to second rg598 on two points. First, I too was surprised by the ubiquity of the 4" Scandi grind in British bushcraft (as represented by this forum). No one I know uses a Scandi grind knife and I've never seen one camping or hunting. Though I've seen a variety of fixed and folding blades over the years, I've rarely seen anyone use anything over 5" and the clear favorite has been a hollow grind. As a caveat I'd add that most of these folks haven't been knife connoisseurs; these were tools, pure and simple. Furthermore, this is just my experience; your mileage may vary and perhaps I've been in the wrong places at the wrong times to see all the Scandi knives in the woods.
The second point that rg598 gets right is that knife choice happens somewhere at the intersection of utility and fashion, in that knife choices reflect the intended use and what's "fashionable." "Fashion" reflects the choices and approval of others, market availability, what you see people use or what people in your area have traditionally used, etc. No one less British than John Locke suggests that not one man in ten thousand is strong enough to stand up to the condemnation of his peers; I find it difficult to imagine, having had this dictum demonstrated so regularly, that fashion has no effect on knife choice.
So as not to be misunderstood, I'm not suggesting that a Scandi ground Woodlore clone isn't a great choice for a bushcraft knife; I'm sure it is. Nevertheless, my impression (forgive me if I'm wrong about this lacking field experience in the UK) is that bushcraft in Britain places more emphasis on woodcraft than it's American cousin does, and conversely, American outdoorsmen and women hunt more and tend therefore to think in terms of skinning and butchering game. As a result, non-slip grips, gut hooks, and hollow grinds are common in the US and rare in Britain, just as Scandi grinds are common in Britain and rare here.
Finally, I would guess that Ray Mears's popularity has affected popular opinion in the UK, much as one could speak of the various popular influences in America that affect our choices. I didn't read what s/he said as condescension but rather as an honest account of preference formation. American choices are neither better simplicatur nor free from the entanglements of fashion.
The second point that rg598 gets right is that knife choice happens somewhere at the intersection of utility and fashion, in that knife choices reflect the intended use and what's "fashionable." "Fashion" reflects the choices and approval of others, market availability, what you see people use or what people in your area have traditionally used, etc. No one less British than John Locke suggests that not one man in ten thousand is strong enough to stand up to the condemnation of his peers; I find it difficult to imagine, having had this dictum demonstrated so regularly, that fashion has no effect on knife choice.
So as not to be misunderstood, I'm not suggesting that a Scandi ground Woodlore clone isn't a great choice for a bushcraft knife; I'm sure it is. Nevertheless, my impression (forgive me if I'm wrong about this lacking field experience in the UK) is that bushcraft in Britain places more emphasis on woodcraft than it's American cousin does, and conversely, American outdoorsmen and women hunt more and tend therefore to think in terms of skinning and butchering game. As a result, non-slip grips, gut hooks, and hollow grinds are common in the US and rare in Britain, just as Scandi grinds are common in Britain and rare here.
Finally, I would guess that Ray Mears's popularity has affected popular opinion in the UK, much as one could speak of the various popular influences in America that affect our choices. I didn't read what s/he said as condescension but rather as an honest account of preference formation. American choices are neither better simplicatur nor free from the entanglements of fashion.
forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I've looked at what the rest of the moose hunting team here uses (moose hunting here is a group effort). Mors are moras or similar style knives, I think the Puma White hunter I sometimes use is the biggest knife used for the skinning and gutting part. I doubt there are any hollow grinds, and the hutting hooks are separate tools (or the EKA swingblade a couple of the guys have gotten). And no laws that contstrain us in any meaningfull sense of the word; I'd have the **** taken if I started to carry a 14" kukri or a 10" hollow handle Chris Reeve knife, but that is all.
I find this conversation interesting, so many opinions on why Americans seem to favor large knives! I wonder myself, but I think it may have something to do with movie characters and what is commonly on the store shelves. Myself, I like a smaller knife, definately under 5 inches and my current favorite is a 3.7 inch Puukko. I for sure prefer the Scandi grind and I believe the standard double bevel USA knives are a pain to sharpen and way too "tacticool".
I recently attended a course where one person had a USA made "survival" knife that had no useful function I could find. Perhaps as a club to beat something with. It was positively the most useless blade design I have ever encountered. The guy used it throughout the course, he paid so much for it he was detrermined to make it work. Sad, really. A waste of a chunk of steel.
I see more and more folks realizing the value of a good Mora or other Scandi ground, small knife. We colonials are defiant to the core! Cheers!
I recently attended a course where one person had a USA made "survival" knife that had no useful function I could find. Perhaps as a club to beat something with. It was positively the most useless blade design I have ever encountered. The guy used it throughout the course, he paid so much for it he was detrermined to make it work. Sad, really. A waste of a chunk of steel.
I see more and more folks realizing the value of a good Mora or other Scandi ground, small knife. We colonials are defiant to the core! Cheers!
