True Scandi Vs Micro Bevel

[Siberianfury]

A knife is for Cutting, therefore to me the most important part of the Knife is the Edge and how sharp it can get, how long it stays and how durable.

Now in my opinion i like my knives to be able to stand up to the environment i am using it in.
id like a knife to be well made, robust with a meaty well succured tang and solid handle, another very important thing is the durablity of the edge.


Personaly ive found zero grinds much more fragile and easily damaged, the edge also may Have a tendancy to roll which wrecks the edge and means you must put alot of work in to correct it, a simple solution for me is a micro bevel, easyer to get hair poppingly sharp, and will also hold the edge longer due to the steeper geometry at the edge.

however others Claim that a zero grind means the grind will stay in a perfect flat shape and perhaps enhance cutting.

i tend to sharpen flat to a zero grind and then Add a mico bevel, this keeps the grind flat and prevents it becoming convex in later use..


So i guess the question im asking is, Do you prefer a micro bevel or a True Skandi zero grind?

 

[Graham_S]

the primary use of a bushcraft knife is cutting and shaping wood.
For this, a zero grind is better.
I don't put a secondary bevel on my knives as I find it defeats the purpose of the blade.
Secondary/micro bevels, in my experience make the knife harder to sharpen long term, and reduce the working life of the blade.
I don't like them.
If your knife is going to be getting so much abuse that the blade is going to be rolled, you should be using a convexed blade anyway.
Far more durable.

 

[Siberianfury]

the primary use of a bushcraft knife is cutting and shaping wood.
For this, a zero grind is better.
I don't put a secondary bevel on my knives as I find it defeats the purpose of the blade.
Secondary/micro bevels, in my experience make the knife harder to sharpen long term, and reduce the working life of the blade.
I don't like them.
If your knife is going to be getting so much abuse that the blade is going to be rolled, you should be using a convexed blade anyway.
Far more durable.

ive used both types of edge and find no difference in the cutting performance, however i aggree, a microbevel is harder to maintain unless you keep the same technique.

a reason for my liking of microbevels is, my two main bushcraft knives have grinds of 15 deg and 19 deg,
these are very thin geometries, zero grind an edge like this and its going to be to fragile for use.

take a look at this test of a spyderco bushy, the edge was damaged after little use due to the high zero grind http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6413

i suppose if your using say a 28 deg bevel, a zero grind will be fine, but for high grinds i personaly find it too risky.

i not only use my knives for cutting wood, but for battoning and dressing Game.. for the last too i find a zero grind far too fragile.

Even Ray Mears uses a microbevel, thats what he uses the window of his Landrover for,
And stropping also greates a convex micro bevel.

 

[Graham_S]

If you're having trouble with the grind of your knives, it sounds like a design/manufacture problem.
Poor heat treat perhaps?

I've got a few pukkos and a woodlore, and I've never had a problem of this sort.
None of them have secondary bevels and all have been used for batonning and dressing game without problems.

 

[wattsy]

zero grinds are more fragile if your dressing game and you touch bone you can end up chipping the blade. micro bevels are a widely acknowledged way of strengthening the edge i put them on all of my knives

 

[HillBill]

Its not true that the life of a blade is less with a micro bevel as when you sharpen a micro bevel you only remove a tiny bit of material from the edge, as opposed to full flats where you remove metal from the whole grind. So to sum up

micro bevels require less sharpening, remove less material on sharpening and hold the edge longer and are better all purpose grinds

flat scandis, need sharpening more, lose more material on the stone, are not as strong and are more a purely wood working grind and limits the use of a knife.


Edge retention........micro wins
life of knife.....micro wins
Multi use capabilities.....micro wins
ease of sharpening...... I suppose this one comes down to what you are used to. Its far less time consuming to touch up a micro bevel though.
ease of sharpening in the field.......micro wins
Wood carving....flat scandi wins marginally

So basing the result on that then i would suggest a micro bevel is the best for a bushcraft knife.

Flat scandi for a purpose carver( depending on angle of grind of course)

Even Ray mears puts a micro on his knife when he rubs it across his car window.

 

[British Red]

If you consider the geometry of the blade, the question needs to be considered in context of the angle of the original primary grind. If there is a 20 degree (total) overall bevel, then a secondary will add some edge retention. If the original primary is much much more then a secondary would be obtuse to the point of blunt.

Primary and seconday should be considered in the context of angle. There is no logical reason why a knife with a primary bevel of 40 degrees will be more prone to chipping than a knife with a secondary of 40 degrees - indeed less so

Red

 

[Draven]

What Mark said, very nicely summed up mate.

My carving knife is zero ground, but stropped which does invariably put a very small microbevel on the edge - this has to be kept in check very carefully though. For fine cutting, this is excellent and absolutely the way to go. For general use, I think it's pretty rubbish. The smaller the cutting angle, the harder the steel has to be to retain the edge. The harder the steel is, the easier it chips. This is fine for a carving knife, but then, you're not beating a carving knife through a lump of wood with a lump of wood - or at least you shouldn't be!

At the end of the day I suppose it is down to the knife. A woodlore, with its rather crowbar-like physique and grind really shouldn't depend on a microbevel. But it's not uncommon for some Scandinavian knives to have a primary grind of 15-20 degrees. Putting a secondary microbevel on is not going to damage cutting performance.

And just a suggestion, if you like the idea of a microbevel's edge retention without compromising any woodworking potential (IMO a general purpose knife should only be used for general purpose woodwork, for specialised work like fine carving and planing large surfaces there are much better tools, so whatever miniscule compromise there is doesn't bother me personally) you could always try putting a microbevel on only one side of the edge?

Pete

EDIT: Got there a bit late with the relativity bit, well said Red

 

[robin wood]

Not sure if you have seen this http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29512&highlight=mora+sharp

Secondary bevels have been discussed here plenty.
I like them for a general purpose knife and it is how a standard Mora clipper comes. I see no point in going to all the effort of polishing the primary if you are going to put a secondary on to make the edge though.

Zero ground scandi is best for controlled woodcarving and the thread above explains why.

 

[HillBill]

Not sure if you have seen this
. I see no point in going to all the effort of polishing the primary if you are going to put a secondary on to make the edge though.

QUOTE]

I agree with that . When i make a knife i normally take the bevel to either 150 or 240 grit depending on what belts i have available at the time, then apply a micro bevel with the steel and give it a quick strop.

 

[Lupis]

OK, I'll bite and show everyone my total ignorance, what is a micro bevel? Any good links before I google it and no doubt get some dodgy information?

 

[HillBill]

The link Robin posted is the one you want to look at mate. 3 posts up from this

 

[FGYT]

I see no point in going to all the effort of polishing the primary if you are going to put a secondary on to make the edge though.

for the same point of putting a Mosaic pin in or using a pretty grained wood. it givesa look

but from a practical point of view as an out door knife not a tool (in a workshop) it helps stop rust developing or catching and holding contamination like food in the grooves.

personnaly i use a micro bevel for a bushcraft knife

now next question

What angle do you micro bevel at okenest:
and how big a micro bevel

ATB

Duncan

 

[Lupis]

The link Robin posted is the one you want to look at mate. 3 posts up from this

I read that and it made me realise how little about knives I really know. Oh well, I guess I have a lot more reading ahead, it's about time I learned what I'm doing. And doing wrong.

 

[eraaij]

 

[littlebiglane]

I prefer a micro bevel. I have rolled too many edges on a Zero and I don't need my knife to shave the hairs on my arm Its simply not a test for a bushy I need.

A micro bevel removes less steel when sharpening and I have no problem maintaining it at all. I can't see where the extra work comes in.

Also I would insist on a secondary in some steels such as D2. The crystals sit big in the matrix and are easily ripped out (chipping results) - so giving more 'steel' around the crystals by having a thicker edge has huge benefit in its durability

 

[demographic]

I microbevel knives and also plane irons, have for years and it saves a lot of arseing about.

Then when the microbevel on a plane iron gets too big I regrind the lot and start over.

 

[PeterHW]

Well it is comforting to read the considered opinions here as I think we are nearly all agreed that a micro bevel works best on a Scandi primary bevel ground knife.

I also agree that the micro bevel would not be needed if the primary bevel was 20 degrees either side or 40 degrees inclusive BUT every Scandi I have come across has primary bevels a lot more acute than this....Woodlores definately included...when putting a micro bevel on with a Sharpmaker which has preset angles for the ceramic rods at 40 degrees for the primary and 30 degrees for the secondary bevel...if you choose to use a secondary as the Scandi grind can act as an effective secondary bevel to the micro bevel if you see what I mean...however on both of these angles they are still not as acute as the main Scandi edge which has been ground into the knife.

Woodlores when new and unused come in at around 20 degrees inclusive or 10 degrees either side....now when you consider hospital scalpels are sharpened at 17 degrees inclusive you can see how easily the "zero edge sharpening" ( for novices this means sharpening flat on the stone holding the knife according to how the grind of the Scandi edge has been added to the knife ) technique leaves the edge prone to rolling as it is nearly as acute as a scalpel.

A well used Woodlore style knife...mine is a good few years now...may well reduce the acute angle but not by mutch...even if it is down to 25 degrees inclusive it still benefits hugely from a 40 degree inclusive micro bevel.

As I said elsewhere in a post Spyderco tried a lot of steels and angle edges for best results before bringing out the "Sharpmaker" and came up with a 40 degree inclusive primary bevel and a 30 degree inclusive secondary bevel as providing the best results for working knives... and after a lot of time and effort experimenting myself I have to say I think they got it right.

On the question of what dimension to give an edge if using a secondary bevel as well as a primary bevel...my thoughts are that with a Scandi grind there is little to be gained with a more obtuse secondary bevel...why have an edge of 40 degree primary on the micro bevel...then 30 degree inclusive secondary on the micro bevel you have added...then have the more acute 20 degree Scandi grind? You get just as good edge retention and cutting ability in my experience by simply adding the 40 degree micro bevel to the 20 degree main grind.

On flat grind knives or sabre ground where I want to give a V shaped edge to the blade I put the primary on at 40 degrees and the secondary at 30 degrees with the secondary only taking up 30% or 1/3 of the original primary 40 degree edge and I use a jewellers loop and marking pen ink ran along the edge to check for this.

This ratio works best then for subsequent stropping to top up and restore the edge and which in turn improves the edge as it makes the grind become rounded on the sides and more of an appleseed shape akin to the convex hamaguri-ba edge put on by Japanese polishers when making a Samauri sword or as also used by their top knife makers.

When I first started sharpening blades using a slack belt sander for speed...to get an idea of the right angle to hold the blade to the belt I sharpened the knife as above and marked the edge with a marker ink...then brought it to the sander with a very light 15 micron well worn belt which was not going to remove steel but just give a polishing effect...seeing how the ink was removed from the edge and seeing the secondary 30 degree inclusive bevel gradually be dovetailed into a sweeping curve for a proper convex edge really gave me some confidence I was starting to get things right...

Those convex edges created that way are still today my best performing of all....after some 10 years plus of trying other options....and stropping with a leather paddle and green compound easily makes them come back to tip top performance...and they last a lot longer than a zero "V" grind as well. Even those that do not "roll"...

Everyone may have different experiences....some may simply never try for such "precision" and just sharpen instinctively....I do this now as after so long checking what worked best I came to the conclusion "sharp is sharp" and now I just want to do the task as quick as I can .... but I am sure my messing about trying to find what worked best put me nicely "in the zone" of being able to hold a knife to the belt or on a flat stone or leather paddle whereby I am close to what is the best angle on a simple "freehand" basis ...

The laughable thing though is how you test for what works best ... each to their own but I became "obsessed" with cutting paper and deciding which was holding the edge longest and cutting smoothest....it got so that I was asking friends for old phone directories...

Checking your convex edges by how easily a single cut would go through a directory...

Or if doing a sharper micro bevel...whether it could trim or fuzz stick one of my hairs....

is not really "normal"....thank goodness I had a "real fire" to make some use out of all the paper and wood used in "testing"....and now I just "settle" for doing a good sharp edge with as little messing about as possible....but at one point I was getting OCD a bit on my sharpening....

 

[Draven]

Er... your figures make absolutely no sense there.

Firstly because the angle gets smaller as the number of degrees decreases. You couldn't have a 40 degree primary bevel and a 30 degree secondary bevel. It ain't gonna happen, you'd be sharpening the shoulders without touching the edge. And a woodlore ain't as fine as 20 degrees inclusive, either.

PS: Not saying so to be an bottom, but rather because I'm curious about what you mean.

 

[FGYT]

i think hes taking his angles the other way
ie Micro is the Primary and the main bevel is a secondary

its the only way that makes sence to me
but is alos using 2 bevels on the micro bit ie 40 deg then 30 deg then Scandi bevel this is would guess is for Spyderco to put a 40 deg secondary on their full flat knives then the 30 to put a micro bevel on that
(remember they cant do Scandi and the bushcrafter thisa year is the first go andcertainly didnt do scandi when the sharp maker was made)

tho i do agree a woodlore is a 28deg bevel ie 14 per side

my scandi bevels on my own made knives are 25deg ie 12.5 per side and i do use a micro bevel usually using my DMT aligner and going 1 notch up from the 25deg followed by a quick polish

At the cutting edge and even a mm up it makes little diffence on the angle its when the blade gets thicker further up a smaller main bevel angle actually comes into play
ATB

Duncan