TRACKS: Who dunnit?

[JonathanD]

It's not bleached. Just my pics make it look brighter. I did sterilise it with diluted bleach when I got home but it didn't make any difference. It is naturally weathered as are the fox and badgers skulls, although they are a couple of decades older.

Was it a complete skeleton were all the vertebra there, basically was there a tail present ?.

There were many bones scattered around when I found it. Problem was, I just treated it as a cat skull as I was busy with my review. I hung the skull on a promient tree so I could find it later. As Bushwhacker will attest, it took me many weeks to get back up there and I had trouble locating even that again. I never bothered to find the other bones. With the changing foliage and undergrowth, which was Summer when I found it - I doubt I'd locate it again.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

I was just being facetious with the bleaching comment..

 

[JonathanD]

I was just being facetious with the bleaching comment..

I know. Thought I'd clear it up though before someone starts down that line seriously.

 

[Million]

If it looks like a horse and it sounds like a horse, it's probably a horse, not a brown zebra.. And with that, I'd agree with Blacktimberwolf in that it's most likely a big tom cat.

Out of interest, were there any marks on the bones that could indicate it was attacked?

 

[JonathanD]

If it looks like a horse and it sounds like a horse, it's probably a horse, not a brown zebra.. And with that, I'd agree with Blacktimberwolf in that it's most likely a big tom cat.

Out of interest, were there any marks on the bones that could indicate it was attacked?

That's just it. It is too big to be even a BIG tomcat and the dentition is completely wrong too. Plus, the people we have shown it too have all agreed that this is a juveniles skull. I still can't get my head around all of the further questions that that realisation raises.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

A juvenile with such worn teeth & dental plaque ?....the skull is fully formed too.

 

[JonathanD]

A juvenile with such worn teeth & dental plaque ?....the skull is fully formed too.

The teeth aren't worn and the plaque is dried flesh hardened around the gum line. Although they look like it to me at first too, the sutures are not fully formed and developed as a full adult, and compared to the fox and badger, they are nowhere near as tight and knitted. The canines aren't fully formed, that is really evident when you look at the cavity they sit in.

This information came from two cat specialists and a vet. All independant of one another, but with the same conclusions.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

the photo of the top view looks very similar to this http://scotcats.online.fr/swc/images/skull2.jpg


Here's the site I got it from...http://scotcats.online.fr/swc/catskulls.html

 

[nuggets]

The teeth aren't worn and the plaque is dried flesh hardened around the gum line. Although they look like it to me at first too, the sutures are not fully formed and developed as a full adult, and compared to the fox and badger, they are nowhere near as tight and knitted. The canines aren't fully formed, that is really evident when you look at the cavity they sit in.

This information came from two cat specialists and a vet. All independant of one another, but with the same conclusions.[/QUOTE]




which was ????..........................................

 

[JonathanD]

The teeth aren't worn and the plaque is dried flesh hardened around the gum line. Although they look like it to me at first too, the sutures are not fully formed and developed as a full adult, and compared to the fox and badger, they are nowhere near as tight and knitted. The canines aren't fully formed, that is really evident when you look at the cavity they sit in.

This information came from two cat specialists and a vet. All independant of one another, but with the same conclusions.

which was ????..........................................

That it is not a 100% fully formed adult skull.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

The end of the canine looks too rounded to be "new" & the premolars don't have sharp edges.......canines & felines have 2/3 of the total length their teeth implanted in the jaws, so what you see, there is twice that in the jaw.......if that curved canine grew anymore it would grow towards the interior of the mouth & would handicap the cat since he could use it nor correctly close it's mouth.

 

[JonathanD]

the photo of the top view looks very similar to this http://scotcats.online.fr/swc/images/skull2.jpg


Here's the site I got it from...http://scotcats.online.fr/swc/catskulls.html

It does yes. But looking at that and mine at the same angle, the sutures don't match and teh orbital cavity on this one of mine is much larger. What is teh dentition like for that species?

 

[JonathanD]

The end of the canine looks too rounded to be "new" & the premolars don't have sharp edges.......canines & felines have 2/3 of the total length their teeth implanted in the jaws, so what you see, there is twice that in the jaw.......if that curved canine grew anymore it would grow towards the interior of the mouth & would handicap the cat since he could use it nor correctly close it's mouth.

The root is about 3/4 of the total length, so from your info, that would add up, as the exposed part still has a way to go yet. The gaps around the canines are also large also suggesting some growth is yet to occur. No idea of the growth rate in cat teeth, but those other folks all say it is certainly not fully formed. Looking at the large gaps in the cranial sutures and lack of knitting compared to all the adult skulls I have here of other mammalian species - I'd have to say they are right. But then, they know more about cats than me, so I'm more in the dark here than if I was looking at my own subject. Reptile skulls are completely different.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Can we assume then that these specialists couldn't identify the species (or hybrid) ?...................

 

[JonathanD]

Can we assume then that these specialists couldn't identify the species (or hybrid) ?...................

Two came to the same conclusion. I also showed them pictures of the tracks in this thread and they said that it looked like the same species but a slightly larger animal than the one the skull came from. Bushwhackers contacts also said the same thing. I'm sure he'll elaborate on that. Hardly a Big Cat, but exciting nontheless. I hope to get out in the following months as they are the best seasons for finding tracks and sign. There is also an interesting property nearby that warrants a looksee. I know the trade in large dangerous cats, and yes... Big Cats is still rife in the UK (mostly supplied from the US) and like reptiles and birds is the second largest black market business after narcotics here. I wonder if this property has any such animals. It's certainly large enough.

One thing is certain, some people who should be able to look at this skull and ID it right away, are reluctant to do so. And the last person that had it was an utter nightmare in parting with it and getting it back off them. In my own field I can identify a snake by it's skull quite well without knowing the geographical location it was found in, so why can't they ID a cat by the skull, or at least assign it to a specific genus? Only two of the five people I asked would commit, and even then it was an approximation.

 

[Robbi]

JD, if it is a big cat and can be identified, my guess is you will be "told" not to discuss or divulge the location or go to the press or publish your findings, tread carefully mate

 

[JonathanD]

JD, if it is a big cat and can be identified, my guess is you will be "told" not to discuss or divulge the location or go to the press or publish your findings, tread carefully mate

Am I going to have a knock on the door from the Men in Black

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Two came to the same conclusion. I also showed them pictures of the tracks in this thread and they said that it looked like the same species but a slightly larger animal than the one the skull came from. Bushwhackers contacts also said the same thing.

Which was ?

 

[Bushwhacker]

Which was ?

It's the same format as the other "whodunnit?" threads. It's good to hear other thoughts first and have a bit of discussion.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Right then, here goes.........lynx, serval, black footed & fishing cat, caracal, are off my list as the skull does not belong to any of them.....there is a close resemblance with a wildcat /feral cat hybrid & ocelot is a second possibility for me..( the small canines are a problem though)....................No idea about the flat headed cat, geoffroy's cat, jungle cat, chinese desert cat, or bay cat. which are all about the size of the mystery moggie,.....the asaitic & African golden cats are prehaps too big.

Am I on the right path or talking a load of tosh as usual. ?


It might help the flow of the discussion if you could give us a little more info...