I can see where I have been going wrong, your description of the tree felling is great and obviously a real eye opener to us amateurs. Do you think this method is confined to just cherry trees or would it apply to all? 
To fell a tree amongst other trees.
- Thread starter Emdiesse
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Yeah.
Used to fell trees on the weekends during the winter months. Never/rarely used a chainsaw though, axes and crosscut saws.
Nothing wrong with that. A bit slow is the only real drawback but ig speed isn't a concern, so what? Daddy and me used his bow saw (a proper full sized one) I still have that saw.
Engaging good tree work contractors in the UK is a minefield.
As a minimum in the UK, to operate a chainsaw professionally for paid reward you would need NPTC (National Proficiency Test Council) certificates in Crosscutting and maintenance, felling small trees. This would entitle you to fell small on the ground and cut them up (snedding and crosscutting). The work aloft you then need to complete two further tickets, operating the chainsaw from rope and harness and aerial rescue. To operate aloft you need to have a minimum of two operatives, two sets of climbing equipment and the groundsman and climber qulaifies in aerial rescue. Only the climber need have his chainsaw in harness ticket.
Thats all that is required in the UK aside from insurance and risk assessments, LOLER and PUWER records for ropes,harnesses etc and maintenance records for the tools.
The tickets above teach you little about the tree itself, they are certificates of competence to operate the machinary to cut the trees.
To gain knowledge in tree health, safety, good practice in management etc one would need to either go back to college to study an National Diploma, Tech Cert, Professional Diploma, NVQ or sign up to the ISA study at home courses.
The Arboricutural Association identified the difficulties faced by a potential customer of tree work and set up the approved contractors scheme. In the early days (tens of years ago) the scheme involved a contractor being inspected for quality and safety of works, qualifications, risk assessments, back office systems etc etc.. it was one off, you paid your fee and that was that. re-inspections were un-heard of so standards slipped.
Thankfully the arb association have addressed this issue and regular re-inspections occur to ensure good on-going standards.
The majoirty of other trade associations are little more than a pay your fee and get your accrediation schemes. Some ask you to provide the addresses of previous customers so they can seek references. Its quite shocking really given that most customers have little idea of how a company operates aside from what they see in their garden. To be blunt, if a customer asks you to fell a tree and it is done with no damage and the garden is left spotless they think you have done a good job, irrespective of the operator having no certificates, risk assesments, insurance etc.
It is this total lack of industry regulation that leads to the uk being swamped with cowboys doing tree work.
You could ask you local authority to recommend a company but few councils will recommend these days. If you have a council that uses a "term contractor" that company will have had to pass a rigorous qualification process to be even invited to tender for the contract. It doesnt gaurentee they will be any good though.
I would suggest that Arb Association approved contractors will deliver a good service, to a high standard. If they don't they could lose their approved status which will have cost them a good deal of time and money to achieve so they will be keen to preserve it!
Cheers stuey for that insightful overview.
It seems if you want a tree cut down properly there's probably a good number of professionals on these forums who'd probably even leave you aside a piece of cherry so you can turn it into a spoon instead of spraying it everywhere from a huge chipper
It seems if you want a tree cut down properly there's probably a good number of professionals on these forums who'd probably even leave you aside a piece of cherry so you can turn it into a spoon instead of spraying it everywhere from a huge chipper
It is difficult to comment on the correct way the tree the op refers to should have been felled as it heavily depends on the site, aspect, access, density of growth of surrounding trees, proximity to obstacles, site conditions etc etc etc.
If it was appropriate to fell the tree in one then it should have been felled into a gap between trees. In the event it didnt make it to the ground to lie flat and it "hung up" then the hinge (if still attached) should have been tickled until one side of it was detached. A felling lever or turning strap and pole would be used to to rotate and shake the tree at the butt until it hopefully slid down to lie flat. If it still refused to lie flat then the hinge should have been completely detached, a winch line attached to the butt of the tree and the butt then winched away until the crown slid down to ground level to lie flat.
If felling in one was not approproate the the tree should have been climbed and dismantled. Whether the arisings are allowed to free fall to the ground or lowered off depends on the drop zone, whether it is clear, obstructed or precious and cannot be dropped upon.
If it was appropriate to fell the tree in one then it should have been felled into a gap between trees. In the event it didnt make it to the ground to lie flat and it "hung up" then the hinge (if still attached) should have been tickled until one side of it was detached. A felling lever or turning strap and pole would be used to to rotate and shake the tree at the butt until it hopefully slid down to lie flat. If it still refused to lie flat then the hinge should have been completely detached, a winch line attached to the butt of the tree and the butt then winched away until the crown slid down to ground level to lie flat.
If felling in one was not approproate the the tree should have been climbed and dismantled. Whether the arisings are allowed to free fall to the ground or lowered off depends on the drop zone, whether it is clear, obstructed or precious and cannot be dropped upon.
I think you are probably right there Most decent contractors would spare you a bit of timber... even if it cost you a pint
Most decent contractors would spare you a bit of timber... even if it cost you a pint Cheers stuey for that insightful overview.
It seems if you want a tree cut down properly there's probably a good number of professionals on these forums who'd probably even leave you aside a piece of cherry so you can turn it into a spoon instead of spraying it everywhere from a huge chipper
Ok, I've not seen a saw with that feature.
I guess there must be a lot of older saws in use with just the manual guard-triggered brake. Last time I used a saw (in Oz) about 3 years ago it just had the manual system.
Hi stuey, when you dismantle a tree limb by limb before felling the trunk do you start at the lowest limb and work upwards or start at he highest limb and work downwards (i just thought that if you removed the top limbs first they would entangle with the lower limbs as they fell but by starting at the lowest limb and working up the trunk they would fall into fresh air) which is the correct sequence please, thanks.
When I say "modern saws" i mean those manufactured within the last 15-20 years.... I can't find an exact date as to when automatic, inertia chainbrakes were made standard but it was some time during the early 80's.
I would bet that the saw you used in Oz, assuming it wasn't an ancient homelite or similar vintage saw, would have had an inertia chainbrake on it. To re-iterate.. the bit of waggly plastic that sits in front of the front loop handle, despite manually operating the chainbrake, is actually a front hand guard and has little to do with the chain brake operating during true kickback. That is not to say that the front hand guard can be used to engage the chain brake if and when required.
The rotational force or inertia of the saw in kickback makes a specially designed link, within the chainbrake mechanism, collapse (temporarily) which allows a powerful spring to pull the metal chain brake band tight around the chain sprocket. The chain brake is disengaged by pulling back on the front hand guard which re-sets the link.
The brake should engage during kickback whether you have your hand on the front loop handle or not.
During maintenance this collapsible link should be carefully cleaned as they tend to gum-up thus reducing their effectiveness.
I would bet that the saw you used in Oz, assuming it wasn't an ancient homelite or similar vintage saw, would have had an inertia chainbrake on it. To re-iterate.. the bit of waggly plastic that sits in front of the front loop handle, despite manually operating the chainbrake, is actually a front hand guard and has little to do with the chain brake operating during true kickback. That is not to say that the front hand guard can be used to engage the chain brake if and when required.
The rotational force or inertia of the saw in kickback makes a specially designed link, within the chainbrake mechanism, collapse (temporarily) which allows a powerful spring to pull the metal chain brake band tight around the chain sprocket. The chain brake is disengaged by pulling back on the front hand guard which re-sets the link.
The brake should engage during kickback whether you have your hand on the front loop handle or not.
During maintenance this collapsible link should be carefully cleaned as they tend to gum-up thus reducing their effectiveness.
The most common practice would be for the climber to ascend to the highest suitable point and establish their anchor on good solid timber as high as possible. They would then descend and begin to remove limbs as required. Often a climber will remove bits and bobs on the way down to the lower limbs to allow for better access within the canopy or to allow free path for their rope. Most commonly the lower limbs would be removed first to allow a clear path down for limbs higher up. The top would be one of the last parts to be felled out or lowered off depending on drop zone followed by the main stems in lumps. The lumps are often called chogs hence the term "chogging down" a tree. There is no right or wrong way as long as it is safe and the climber communicates well with the ground crew.
Santaman, I don't believe that is what Bambodoggy is saying at all. He is a fully qualified and certified Tree Surgeon working within the guidelines of the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and industry best practice. The HSE make it quite clear that chainsaws designed to be used on the ground must not be used above shoulder height. Health and Safety law is not taken lightly in the UK and those in breach can face a jail term if found guilty of serious offences.
There are huge, huge differences in the way the tree and timber industries run over here when compared to the US and Canada. Our timber operations are tiny by comparison. All the drama of Ax men and other TV programmes is just not seen over here. We dont use massive sky lines etc. Its on a tiny scale compared to you guys
Foresters undertake commercial timber harvesting (what you guys would call loggin) either using harvesters and forwarders or by ordinary smallish chainsaw and tractor winch or heavy horse.
Tree surgeons and arborists undertake all other works including domestic tree pruning and felling, commercial large scale felling and often woodland management which does not fall within commercial timber harvesting.
I should point out that foresters have to work within the same health and safety guidelines and laws as tree surgeons and arborists... so they must not use a ground saw above shoulder height either.
There are huge, huge differences in the way the tree and timber industries run over here when compared to the US and Canada. Our timber operations are tiny by comparison. All the drama of Ax men and other TV programmes is just not seen over here. We dont use massive sky lines etc. Its on a tiny scale compared to you guys
Foresters undertake commercial timber harvesting (what you guys would call loggin) either using harvesters and forwarders or by ordinary smallish chainsaw and tractor winch or heavy horse.
Tree surgeons and arborists undertake all other works including domestic tree pruning and felling, commercial large scale felling and often woodland management which does not fall within commercial timber harvesting.
I should point out that foresters have to work within the same health and safety guidelines and laws as tree surgeons and arborists... so they must not use a ground saw above shoulder height either.
Years ago I helped out with a neighbour logging in bits of wood round Savernake Forest and one time nearly qualified for a Darwin Award.
After taking off the branches a shackle would be fastened to the top of the tree, it would be cut through the base and the fall part controlled by a tractor. One time the shackle come loose so I went up a ladder resting on the tree and was replacing the shackle when the thought struck me that I was on top of a balancing tree whose base had been cut through. Was as worried as the time I replaced some tiles on a tall house belayed by a chap with only one hand.
After taking off the branches a shackle would be fastened to the top of the tree, it would be cut through the base and the fall part controlled by a tractor. One time the shackle come loose so I went up a ladder resting on the tree and was replacing the shackle when the thought struck me that I was on top of a balancing tree whose base had been cut through. Was as worried as the time I replaced some tiles on a tall house belayed by a chap with only one hand.
......There are huge, huge differences in the way the tree and timber industries run over here when compared to the US and Canada. Our timber operations are tiny by comparison. All the drama of Ax men and other TV programmes is just not seen over here. We dont use massive sky lines etc. Its on a tiny scale compared to you guys
Foresters undertake commercial timber harvesting (what you guys would call loggin) either using harvesters and forwarders or by ordinary smallish chainsaw and tractor winch or heavy horse.....
Much the same way we logged when I was a teenager. What you see on Axemen is supposedly considerred a small operation now-a-days but what we did was a family affair. My Uncle owned the truck and a couple of tractors along with a skidder. He drove the truck from the logging site to whatever mill was buying our timber. Me and his youngest son drove the tractors bunching the logs. The oldest son and a distant cousin were the sawyers.
When I was a young boy I remember going to the woods to watch him log (before we were big enough to help) and he was still using draft horses!
As to Health and Safety, that would be OSHA over here (Occupational Safety & Health Administration) They only have any real jurisdiction over commercial jobs. As we (and most loggers) were usually considerred a family farming operation (the log trucks in many states have farming plates and thus don't even require more than an ordinary driver's license) they have no real jurisdiction and are usually asked (not so politely) to get off the land by the owner. If need be the sheriff (or the game warden) will escort them.
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Things would be a lot simpler over here if the HSE only confined themselves to commercial jobs. A long since gone colleague of mine got hauled over the coals by the HSE after being reported by a jealous tree surgeon who didnt have much work on. The tree surgeon had driven past my colleague who was dismantling a 30 foot Leyland cypress in his friends front garden. He was working alone with no groundsman, not being paid for the work in any way and essentially working as a private individual in a private garden. He is a qualified tree surgeon himself. The HSE battled hard to charge him for climbing alone and thus breaching the guidelines of not having an aerial rescue qualified groundy with him. He explained he wasnt being paid for the job and therefore he was not being employed by anyone so health and safety law did not apply but had to fight hard to prove it. The HSE accused him of keeping the logs which in their eyes constituted payment in kind.
They dropped the case eventually but it was touch and go for a bit.
The HSE would be all over that lovely insight into your past..... it sounds like a cracking way of life to me
They dropped the case eventually but it was touch and go for a bit.
The HSE would be all over that lovely insight into your past..... it sounds like a cracking way of life to me
Sounds as if the basic philosophy is the same. Just how strict they interpret the difference between private vs commercial. Things are shifting more towards the stricter over here as well. Just not as far along yet.
And yes. It was a great way to grow up. I think you would have enjoyed it.
stuey im glad you 'v been doing all the replys i' m a tree surgeon and i climb alone most of the time it's hard enough getting the money for one man let alone two when one just looks like he's looking up a tree so it has to be a big cleanup job for two man job (keep it to yourself not tell the HSA)LOL
stuey im glad you 'v been doing all the replys i' m a tree surgeon and i climb alone most of the time it's hard enough getting the money for one man let alone two when one just looks like he's looking up a tree so it has to be a big cleanup job for two man job (keep it to yourself not tell the HSA)LOL
I've worked alone on fruit tree and smallish domestic tree jobs, but you really need to price in a groundsman with aerial rescue. I know, or rather, used to know two guys who killed themselves while working alone. One cut his strop because it was hooked up on a peg on the opposite side of the tree, the other was throwing pine branches out straight onto a fire and set the whole tree alight. Both incidents would likely have been prevented if a second man had been present.
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