Wasn't it "From field to fork"? I remember watching it a few (10?) years ago, and found it very interesting.
This Steak is better than That Steak...
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Kill it, cook it, eat it!
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BBC Three - Kill It, Cook It, Eat It - Episode guide
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We do that as it is the most humane, the scope increases accuracy and the power of the rifle ensure a quicker death and less suffering. Hunting in ancient times was quite barbaric and often very painful for the quarry.
I cannot tell whether you are agreeing with me on No2 or not. Quoting me and saying it is an opinion sounds like you don't, but then the following sentences track with what I was saying about challenge. That a concept of "sportsmanship" is inextricably entwined with hunting really isn't an opinion. What one thinks of as sportsmanship in oneself and others most certainly is opinion and is very subjective.
With the boxing analogy, the boxer can still exhibit good sportsmanship. The outcome of the match may not be in question, but there can be a difference in how the boxer behaves towards his opponent, during and after. When you go "hunting" is it a 100% certain thing that you are going to come home with meat? If so, then I agree, you have succeeded in removing the sporting aspect of hunting and have reduced what you do to going out and killing food. In most times and places, increasing the uncertainty in outcome, increasing the challenge, increases how sporting the hunt is see as.
Oh, agree, I do too (well actually as close as my fieldcraft will get me) - I'm just saying it's just not sport.
No, I don't think we agree. In the 21st century man should be able to entertain himself without involving wild life in my oppinion. But, as I have said frequently, I won't campaign for others to change their opinion.
You still think that a concept of "sportsmanship" being inextricably entwined with hunting is not an opinion; I think opinion should change with time. It was "sportsmanship" to do a whole lot of things that are no longer considered acceptable. The boxing analogy it's not the beating of the kid but that followed by the victory parade. I think of that Harry Enfield character - sporting Dad who thrashes his son at tennis and then celebrates as though he's just won the Olympics (I think it was Harry Enfield anyway).
No, I cannot guarantee I will come home with meat but that certainly doesn't make it sporting. Sporting in shooting and other projectile weapons is when men and women face each other firing at targets.
I never said hunting wasn't challenging, it is and should be, we should have to work for our meat whether that's by paying a high price for it or by spending hours trying to find and dispatching it but just because something is a challenge doesn't make it a sport.
Anyway, this was an interesting piece:
What Does It Mean To Be A Sportsman? - Sportsman's Blog
I ask you…what does it mean to be called a sportsman? I presume it means different things to different people, but on the whole what does the word “sportsman” conjure up in your mind when you hear the...
sportsmansblog.com
It is very interesting the difference between the definitions in American dictionaries (and blogs) and British ones and we can quote from as many sources as we like but I don't think we'll agree
Not all hunters use rifles. Shotguns are common (even preferred) for most small game. in many areas they’re preferred for deer as well. Then there’s archery hunting (remember upthread I mentioned Fred Bear was one of my heroes) Finally there’s still raccoon hunting where the most common means is to shake the prey out of the trees for the dogs.
Hunting to me is neither a means of meat on the table (or obtaining furs for sale) nor is it a sport. It’s intrinsic. It’s way of life. Totally ingrained into a socio-cultural psyche. So much so that the idea that a 21st Century man (or woman) can find better ways to “entertain themselves” is distressing. It’s in conflict with all natural instincts.
Hunting to me is neither a means of meat on the table (or obtaining furs for sale) nor is it a sport. It’s intrinsic. It’s way of life. Totally ingrained into a socio-cultural psyche. So much so that the idea that a 21st Century man (or woman) can find better ways to “entertain themselves” is distressing. It’s in conflict with all natural instincts.
*Edit* For Broch *edit*
What word would you use to convey the concept of ethics, manners, adherence to rules, self control, you know, all those things that hunters (in the US) incorrectly call sportsmanship?
All those misguided souls use that word to mean something, a collection of ideas and ideals that they associate with hunting, even if you do not. My saying that they view these ideas as indivisible from the activity of hunting is not just my opinion.
I feel like I have said that lots of people say the sky is blue, and you are saying that this is just my opinion and I am wrong because they are wrong. We both know that the sky isn't blue but just appears blue and the how and why is fairly complex, but people still say the sky is blue.
I used the term "sportsmanship" because it is commonly used to describe a concept that is used as a metric that people can and do use to rate how objectionable or ethical certain hunters are. You have disagreed with my choice of word, but have not offered any alternative word or metric by which anyone can or does rate hunter behaviour.
What word would you use to convey the concept of ethics, manners, adherence to rules, self control, you know, all those things that hunters (in the US) incorrectly call sportsmanship?
All those misguided souls use that word to mean something, a collection of ideas and ideals that they associate with hunting, even if you do not. My saying that they view these ideas as indivisible from the activity of hunting is not just my opinion.
I feel like I have said that lots of people say the sky is blue, and you are saying that this is just my opinion and I am wrong because they are wrong. We both know that the sky isn't blue but just appears blue and the how and why is fairly complex, but people still say the sky is blue.
I used the term "sportsmanship" because it is commonly used to describe a concept that is used as a metric that people can and do use to rate how objectionable or ethical certain hunters are. You have disagreed with my choice of word, but have not offered any alternative word or metric by which anyone can or does rate hunter behaviour.
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So is coveting your neighbour's wife , bashing their dome in with a rock and dragging her back to you cave.. But we manage to do it in a developed civil society.
I have no problem with using the term sportsmanship if you mean having respect and apply ethics to the action but I do not call the action of hunting wildlife a sport. I am, perhaps, a little strange in my attitude and some would even say hypocritical - I do enjoy hunting, I do get a thrill out of the challenge but I do not consider myself a sportsman when doing it. I was a sportsman when I was boxing, playing rugby, doing athletics, martial arts, squash, rifle and pistol target shooting ….. but not when stalking or waiting and shooting an animal whilst its head is down grazing.
Yes we do here as well, in fact it's illegal to take 'game' (meaning game birds) with a rifle in the UK.
Yes we do here as well, in fact it's illegal to take 'game' (meaning game birds) with a rifle in the UK.
Strange that on a forum dedicated to skills that bring us closer to nature, we are now having a disagreement about an activity as old as our species, that drove and shaped so many aspects of our behaviour, not to mention a raft of the old skills that many of us work so hard to study and learn, even for their own sake.
No, I’m not saying you’re wrong. Your “opinion” is probably the most common as well. Nor do I disagree with your choice of words. I think it’s a vague concept but I don’t offer an alternative because I don’t know of a truly god one; hence our discussions being lengthier to describe it (which might also prove inadequate sadly) I suppose one aspect (although not the be all and end all) is that sportsmanship only encompasses the ethics. Hunting traditions certainly all have their ethics but they also have the drive to hunt. An inner compulsion (instinct in part: societal expectations also) As a kid growing up hunting deer meant a small group (8 to 12 hunters) We would select one hunter to be the “driver” who would take 2 to4 dogs and drive from one end of a hollow (the space between the hills) to the other. The dogs would rouse the deer from their beds (our deer are nocturnal) and chase it as it ran down the hollow towards the other hunters (the “standers”) The point and joy of that type hunt was always the comaraderie, the pride in good dogs (remember further upthread I mentioned one of the reasons I’d have trouble eating dog was because I personally view it as a partner) This concept and tradition is much, much different to what was normally practiced in other regions. However those other regions developed their own traditions just as deeply rooted and so were most of y’all’s hunting traditions as far as I can tell.
As for hunters and hunting ethics in the US it’s not a homongenous thing. Hunters and hunting here in the Deep South is far different from hunting in the Mountain West and in turn hunting in both differs greatly from the Great Plains, etc. Every region developed its traditions according to climate, game, topography and species. Likewise the differences between them and the UK. That said, I suspect most Americans would come closer to the ideas you described (we’ve been urbanized for quite some time and it’s only getting worse)
I apologize for this post being so disjointed.
Yes. When I said small game I was also referring to squirrel, rabbit, foxes, etc. (ground animals in addition to birds)
I’ve never thought of myself as a “sportsman” regarding any activity to be honest. When playing games I simply thought of myself as a “player.” When I was in the ring (boxing or karate) I though of myself as a “fighter.” When hunting or fishing I thought of myself as a hunter or a fisherman (sometimes combining those activities with others and classifying them collectively as an “outdoorsman”)
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And therein lies my comment that I find current trends “distressing.” Not because I disagree with ethical treatment of animals (I don’t disagree with that at all) rather because those same trends are taking us farther and farther from those roots. We agree on more that we disagree on.
