"The more you know the less you need"

[Scottishwanderer]

What is everyone's interpretation of Mors saying?

I realise not many people follow this ethos but in Britain we don't have to hike 30 miles to a site so weight generally isn't an issue.

Another quote which i feel is more powerfull is.

"The less you have the less you need"

I seem to find that the more i learn, the more cordage i need and the more use my knife gets.

" The more you know, the more cordage you need" isn't as catchy as Mors's though lol.

 

[rik_uk3]

It should be "The more you know the more you want" as kit fever kicks in.

 

[Paul_B]

"The more you know the less of it you use"

For example, I've learnt a lot about wildcamping and backpacking over the last few years. This resulted in replacing of heavy kit and learning that I need less stuff. However it also means that I don't use all of what I have learnt as my pack still reached something like 20kg on a recent trip to a remote part of Scotland. I have spent a lot to get down from 28kg to 6.5kg sack weight. The investment was financial and time spent getting out there and pushing my comfort limit. However when I really needed to use what I learnt I seem to have forgotten most of it. Hence my quote above. Not as catchy but I do think that others use less of what they know as their knowledge increases too.

Of course just because you know how to go out into the wilds with a knife and pretty much little else doesn't mean that it is right to do so. I mean if you are on a week's holiday somewhere remote then why not going for some comfort with a tarp and bivvy rather than making a debris shelter every night and why not carry a UL meths stove and fire steel or lighter rather than having to friction fire light to cook?? In reality bushcraft or survival skills are often skills that are nice to practise but if moving around is your purpose then perhaps they are better to practise for leisure rather than need.

 

[Scottishwanderer]

Of course not many people would go of into the woods for a few nights with just a knife, it's a romantic thing that probably has roots in Rambo.

It is doable and with adequate knowledge you could get really comfy.

As for backpacking thats a whole other matter really as due to the nature of it ultra modern high tech gear is probably the best way.

I can see the draw of kit mania but personally it's not for me, i can't afford most bushcrafting add ons and even if i could i'm too Scottish to pay for it.

I was drawn into bushcraft because it appeared to have an anti materialist ethos which i since found out is not true but maybe i'm somewhat of an idealist but i like to think it had roots there in it's modern state.

Even more of a draw was what seemed like, don't buy it make it and if you can't make it do without. It's good to see that ethos is still rampant.

 

[Toddy]

I like the make it for yourself ethos I also really like seeing what others make

It's easy to forget though that the freedom to roam and use that we have isn't possible for everyone, and then decent kit comes into play. It doesn't need to be expensive, and it doesn't need to be new, it just needs to be right for the need you have of it.

Humanity likes 'things', likes gadgets, has 'makingstuff' hardwired into our brains and hands It takes time though, and for many the odd weekend out is all the real free time they can manage. Slave away labouring to create comfort or bring in ready made and have the time and energy to spend doing something else, like making fire from scratch or cordage, or wild food gathering and cooking.

Whatever rocks your boat

I think the one thing that is remarkable is just how diverse this community actually is. Folk like to talk kit, see what others have and why they would or wouldn't recommend it.
Depends too on where and why you're meeting up. Group stuff is not just being social it's easier in the long run. Like the huge kettle rather than twenty wee ones all trying to find space on the hearth. Wouldn't do if there was just me out though.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Pict]

I think with experience comes the knowledge that many things are superfluous or only contribute to comfort in some minor way. Also many contingencies that we carry things for can be worked around with bushcraft skills, tent pegs for example.

When it comes to actual life and death survival I try to make sure I will always have the resources to solve my survival related problems without resorting to bushcraft or primitive methods. It is far more economical in terms of energy expenditure to carry modern firelighting, shelter, and water storage/purification than it is to create these resources with old school bushcraft. For instance a bivy and poncho or hammock is easier to carry than it is to make a bush shelter, a Bic and inner tube rubber is easier than friction fire, and a canteen and chemical means are far easier than making a container and boiling. The right minimum kit is a huge advantage both to survival and not beating up the bush constantly to care for needs we know about before we set out. That said there is nothing I like doing in the bush more than old school bushcraft and I do get into remote places to practice, but I always do that from a base of well thought out kit.

Especially when setting out with a group with experience comes the knowledge that not everyone needs to carry the same tools personally. Often it is more than adequate to have one to two of a particular item and the load of those tools can easily be spread out among the group.

I have often taken people out for their first wilderness camping experience and had to go through their packs to eliminate things they perceive they will need. Often here that will be an excessive load of extra clothes so they can stay clean and personal grooming products so they look and smell nice. I'm talking about guys here too. "D" cell flashlights and elaborate cook sets are high on the list as well. There is a learning curve when taking people from car camping to wilderness camping. You don't need the folding camp chair but a one foot square of closed cell foam pad is a really nice thing to have.

Bushcraft, knife, and wilderness survival gear addiction is another thread. "I just brought these along to test them" is a pretty good excuse that can add a few Kg of steel to a pack. I fall into this category so if I want to truly "test" a knife I don't carry my standard blade.

 

[nolightweight]

Good post, Pict.

 

[geordienemisis]

It should be "The more you know the more you want" as kit fever kicks in.

Yes I think Rik has hit the nail on the head.

 

[Lumber Jack]

This always interests me.

When you look at people like Mors Kochanski and Ray Mears. You never see masses of kit dangling off carabiner like you see a lot of other people doing. If you watch some of Mike Dixon's vid's. He has half of the survival & bushcraft kit available worldwide attached to a carabiner that he attaches to his belt or whatever. If I don't use something out on a trip, I take it out of my kit.

All I carry is;

A knife
A steel water bottle
The clothes I have on plus a luminous jacket in my bergen.
A custom survival tin, which measures about 5 inches by 3 inches. It includes, waterproof matches, snare wire, a survival whistle, water purification tabs, spare fire steel, some proven fishing kit, spare folding knife, a button compass, A mag light and a few other bits and bobs that I can't remember. The tin was sealed when I created it, everything having been tested. It goes in my bergen and is there if ever I need it. It takes up very little space and more so, weighs very little.
A first aid kit.


If I'm in ground that I don't know. I have a map and a compass. I'll stop every few hundred yards and take a bearing, pick out any landmarks to confirm my position. And head off again.

My rucksack is very rarely full. I can get most things to be comfortable whilst I'm out. I have top of the range gear as well. I have many jackets, trousers, boots and trail shoes. I usually stick to the same of all of them though. I will admit that if I ever see a nifty bit of kit or something new hits the market that I like, I'll buy it. Being honest though, it never leaves the house. I go out with minimal kit and I've never had any problems.

 

[drewdunnrespect]

Yes you lot are right there is a lot of us who are gear junkies but I was once told
Comfort is all relative to skill sets and yes and I don't include my self in this.
Some of u could go for a night out with just a knife and a pot but i seriously like my comfort
And am then able to practice skills that will enable me to eventually go out with just a knife
And a pot. So maybe even though we know more we CHOOSE to carry more so we can learn more

Drew

 

[WoodMan]

It is certainly true in my world of deer stalking. When I first started out, over twenty years ago, I had the most basic kit, mainly because I was skint. Over the years I must have had every gadget and item of equipment available, I could still invite half a dozen stalkers to turn up in their underpants and send them out fully kitted up! Now, the kit that I have in everyday use is supprisingly similar to that which I started out with only higher quality. I dread to think what I have spent over the years.

I spent one season in the NWT working for a safari company, you certainly quickly find out how to cut back on kit when you have to head into the mountains with your bergan half full of heavy salt for preserving skins and leaving enough space for some of the hunters gear and the meat, capes and antlers of the animals that you hope to return with.

Glyn.

 

[blacktimberwolf]

The more you know, the fewer mistakes you make..............unless you're a complete donk that is !

 

[Scottishwanderer]

After looking at Mors quote i think i picked it up wrong.

The more you know the less you NEED to carry"

If you can make natural shelter you don't NEED a tarp but it's a hell of a lot more convenient and less damaging.

 

[horsevad]

It has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, that people are training to attain a level of knowledge, where they would be able to survive in the wilderness with only a knife.

And while it is entirely possible to live comfortably in the wild with only few tools, it is also inherently impractical in modern society.

For instance, even though I know enough plants to be able to gather enough to sustain myself in in the wild, this would require an enormous acreage to practise for even a slightly prolonged period. It is therefore not only impractical, but also ecologically irresponsible.

Modern farming, production and infrastructure has enabled humans to achieve vastly greater populations than would be possible with a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. With a paleolithic hunter-gatherer lifestyle the population of Denmark maxed out at about 500 persons - compare that to 5.3 million today!

The below table is calculated for an area with a diameter of 10 kilometers, equalling an area of 314 square kilometers:

(reference: F. A. Hassan, "Demographic Archeology", Academic Press, New York, 1981, p57)

Normally the population density for a hunter gatherer society is between 0,1 and 1 per square kilometer, with the highest value in areas around streams and rivers, where fishing can contribute to the food gathered from the forrest. (Reference: M. L. Bacci, "A concise history of world population", Wiley-Blackwell, 2001, p22)

To put into perspective, Denmark has a population density of 122,9 pr square kilometer and UK has a whopping population density of 243,3 pr square kilometer!

This makes it ecologically impossible to venture out in the wild and gather all your raw materials and food from the wild, even if you have the skills and knowledge to do so in a true wilderness environment.

When teaching courses I always introduce the students to the different kind of plants and their uses, but we never gather more than a few of each. While still making it possible for the students to sample the wild food, and gain experience in collecting and processing, it will at the same time minimise the ecologically impact, and thus enable me to use the same general area for other courses.

There are other places in the world where true wilderness living still is possible. Lynx Wilden is probably the foremost example on what can be done with modern knowledge, ecologically sound area management and paleolithic tools!

//Kim Horsevad

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Those that are supposed to know a great deal,..... Bear, Les Stoud, the dual survival'ists & the like, go out with just a knife & & few bits & bobs & only just survive until they are found or find rescue. They are usually hungry, thirsty, cold, wet & basically, thoroughly miserable.
I prefer uncle Ray's method, go out with a hefty pack, containing everything I need, safe in the knowledge (illusion ?) that, in theory I could do without it all.

 

[Scottishwanderer]

Horsevad

Rats, mice, worms, snails, rabbits etc are abundant,

 

[Scottishwanderer]

[@ Blacktimber wolf

True but these guys are not really experts on there own programs, look at Les stroud, he is Canadian yet on his show he went to costa rica etc places where he used knowledge from the other side of the planet.

The main reason i don't like Ray Mears programs, apart from being annoyed by him is that he claims to be an expert in jungles, arctic and all manner of different environments yet he doesn't live in any of them, he has great general knowledge of survival but not an expert in one.

On the other hand Kochanski lives in Canada but has only ever taught in The boreal forest. Dual survivals Cody Lundin is a survival expert in a specific location but in the show he is thrown into swamps and cloud forests and expected to be expert.

Some skills are good everywhere though.

 

[Maggot]

From the OP, I don't agree with this bit "The less you have the less you need".

If you need a knife, cord, water and food, but don't have it, it doesn't mean that you need less of it, just that you'll be dead quicker.

 

[Retired Member southey]

It has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, that people are training to attain a level of knowledge, where they would be able to survive in the wilderness with only a knife.

And while it is entirely possible to live comfortably in the wild with only few tools, it is also inherently impractical in modern society.

For instance, even though I know enough plants to be able to gather enough to sustain myself in in the wild, this would require an enormous acreage to practise for even a slightly prolonged period. It is therefore not only impractical, but also ecologically irresponsible.

Modern farming, production and infrastructure has enabled humans to achieve vastly greater populations than would be possible with a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. With a paleolithic hunter-gatherer lifestyle the population of Denmark maxed out at about 500 persons - compare that to 5.3 million today!

The below table is calculated for an area with a diameter of 10 kilometers, equalling an area of 314 square kilometers:

(reference: F. A. Hassan, "Demographic Archeology", Academic Press, New York, 1981, p57)

Normally the population density for a hunter gatherer society is between 0,1 and 1 per square kilometer, with the highest value in areas around streams and rivers, where fishing can contribute to the food gathered from the forrest. (Reference: M. L. Bacci, "A concise history of world population", Wiley-Blackwell, 2001, p22)

To put into perspective, Denmark has a population density of 122,9 pr square kilometer and UK has a whopping population density of 243,3 pr square kilometer!

This makes it ecologically impossible to venture out in the wild and gather all your raw materials and food from the wild, even if you have the skills and knowledge to do so in a true wilderness environment.

When teaching courses I always introduce the students to the different kind of plants and their uses, but we never gather more than a few of each. While still making it possible for the students to sample the wild food, and gain experience in collecting and processing, it will at the same time minimise the ecologically impact, and thus enable me to use the same general area for other courses.

There are other places in the world where true wilderness living still is possible. Lynx Wilden is probably the foremost example on what can be done with modern knowledge, ecologically sound area management and paleolithic tools!

//Kim Horsevad

Is that based on staying in one area or continually moving around like a nomad?

 

[Lumber Jack]

Those that are supposed to know a great deal,..... Bear, Les Stoud, the dual survival'ists & the like, go out with just a knife & & few bits & bobs & only just survive until they are found or find rescue. They are usually hungry, thirsty, cold, wet & basically, thoroughly miserable.
I prefer uncle Ray's method, go out with a hefty pack, containing everything I need, safe in the knowledge (illusion ?) that, in theory I could do without it all.

Stroud and Grylls portray survival. If you had all the gear Ray had, it wouldn't be survival. Rays rucksack is magic you know At first he has a saw and various other implements. 15 mins later, he's pulling a mixing bowl, a pyrex dish, a bag of flower and about five different herbs to make his bush cuisine taste better. I often wonder what else he's going to pull out of there!

LJ