Everyone has been suggesting titanium of stainless steel, going with card is a bold move but it you can keep it from bursting into flames, you might be onto something!
The ideal Bushcraft Stove?
- Thread starter Podcast Bob
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so that'll be a fold down compact large one piece stove thats simple with a woodgas fan, made out of cheap titanium that will go in your pocket. Not too hard Bob !
Maybe.
A one piece small stove
A folding one man stove
A simple large one piece stove
A woodgas stove
A folding honey stove.
The above in Titanium and Stainless both
glad thats clarified for you.
cheers bob !
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forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
I would use my old Moskosel/Tentipi "Eldspis" (small) almost exclusively if it did not rust (they have no intention of releasing it in stainless or Ti, I asked) and it was a bit nicer about leaving fire-scars.
* Flatpack (fits in most backpack sidepockets)
* Able to handle a variety of pots
* Able to handle bigger pieces of firewood (i.e. you can cook things for more than 15 min without going crazy)
That is with a 12 and 14 cm zebra for scale
Also works in winter:
* Flatpack (fits in most backpack sidepockets)
* Able to handle a variety of pots
* Able to handle bigger pieces of firewood (i.e. you can cook things for more than 15 min without going crazy)
That is with a 12 and 14 cm zebra for scale
Also works in winter:
widu13
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Bob,
I don't know what your target customer is, whether it's bushcraft or lightweight walker.
When I bushcraft I use a Optimus Hiker+ and steel No 2 pan, but when I lightweight I use a minibull meths burner but it's not very stable etc as I use a convecting small pan for all in one cooking.
I have various hobos but don't use them much as for lightweight walking they are too bulky, and despite having a honey I find it a PITA to put together even when my hands aren't cold so I don't take that either.
Can anodised ali take the heat of a "real" fire? Ti (in a stove) is just too expensive and flimsy for me.
For me the gold standard would be:
Small pack size (i.e flat for ease of packing)
Hinged for ease. (When I'm knackered I don't want to spend 2-3 mins putting a stove together, I just want food or a brew on the go straight away)
Ability to work with meths burners from the civi trangia, to sideburners from coke can size to minibull size.
Built in windscreen
Ability to work with small one man pots to larger pots
In otherwords something small, light, compact and quick to "deploy" and doesn't cost the earth!
BTW if you can do something similar with a doss bag that is also warm; can you please let us know
I don't know what your target customer is, whether it's bushcraft or lightweight walker.
When I bushcraft I use a Optimus Hiker+ and steel No 2 pan, but when I lightweight I use a minibull meths burner but it's not very stable etc as I use a convecting small pan for all in one cooking.
I have various hobos but don't use them much as for lightweight walking they are too bulky, and despite having a honey I find it a PITA to put together even when my hands aren't cold so I don't take that either.
Can anodised ali take the heat of a "real" fire? Ti (in a stove) is just too expensive and flimsy for me.
For me the gold standard would be:
Small pack size (i.e flat for ease of packing)
Hinged for ease. (When I'm knackered I don't want to spend 2-3 mins putting a stove together, I just want food or a brew on the go straight away)
Ability to work with meths burners from the civi trangia, to sideburners from coke can size to minibull size.
Built in windscreen
Ability to work with small one man pots to larger pots
In otherwords something small, light, compact and quick to "deploy" and doesn't cost the earth!
BTW if you can do something similar with a doss bag that is also warm; can you please let us know
what about working off a chimenea type design?
you can have a raised open fire with 180 degree view - plus no scorch marks
it has a built in wind shield
you could design the top of it as a hot plate to cook on, with the option of cooking inside it on a grill
the trick would be to make it collapsible/ packable. or just market it for car camping. if on the off chance they already make one of these - links would be appreciated!
you can have a raised open fire with 180 degree view - plus no scorch marks
it has a built in wind shield
you could design the top of it as a hot plate to cook on, with the option of cooking inside it on a grill
the trick would be to make it collapsible/ packable. or just market it for car camping. if on the off chance they already make one of these - links would be appreciated!
Hi Bob,
For me the Honey Stove pretty much hits the nail on the head except for the assembly faff. I've tried all sorts of methods for putting it together but nothing is really easy, especially with cold hands. But I love the flat-pack and think hinges would be bound to push up the price and impact on the pack-ability and set-up versatility too much, although I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on these counts!
TBH I really only use mine for boiling water (either for drinks, or re-hydrating food, or occasionally heating a rat-pack or look-what-we-found type ready-meal) and usually use a crusader mug as a pot (I like that the HS fits in the issue pouch with crusader mug & bottle) but I have used a zebra pot although this is pushing it with the heat generated by the small fire contained within the Honey Stove. This is not an issue with a Trangia style spirit burner though or by using my Trangia gas burner insert so the HS takes the place of the Trangia windshield/pot-stand (because you can burn meths/gas OR wood in the HS but ONLY meths/gas with the Trangia).
Refuelling when burning wood isn't really a problem I feel. I tend to fuel up the stove by layering tinder (usually birch-bark) then smaller and then larger twigs until the stove is 3/4 full, I light it by 'squirting' a turbo-flame type lighter up through the holes in the bottom plate whilst holding the stove up, when it is burning I put it down and stand my pot/mug on top. It is then easy to keep feeding longer fuel in through the door. One can also drop fuel in the top if a couple of tent-pegs (or bicycle wheel spokes) are used to support the mug rather than the top-plate.
An ash pan is easily improvised with foil / foil pie-dish etc. and an additional windscreen can also easily be made from heavy-weight foil if required. These are cheap, light and compact solutions which users can add if they wish.
Want to move it whilst it is hot? Just poke a green stick through opposite pairs of the larger holes at the top as a quick handle, having first taken the pot off of course.
If fire-scar is a concern a similar technique can be employed but using 2 metal rods (more re-used spokes) instead of a green stick through the bottom holes to lift the stove up and support it between two green branches above the ground in a similar way to the Tentipi fire box (you can just make this out in ForestWalker's second photo). It can be a bit wobbly, but is not a problem if care is taken.
Stainless is good. I'd like the lighter Ti version but can't justify it given that I already own a S/S one. If I were buying now for the first time I'd save up and buy Ti.
For one person the HS is a good option, I'm not sure the Hive really does the job for two though (although as a BBQ it works OK).
If it ain't broke; don't fix it . . .
Just a quick thought about your 'simple grill' comment: http://www.purcelltrench.com/index.htm the Streamside Voyageurs Grill is wonderful quality, just a pain to order from the UK and rather expensive. I'm not suggesting a 'clone' but there is nothing as light and sturdy that I've seen this side of the pond. The Tentipi firebox is good too, but again too expensive for what it is.
For me the Honey Stove pretty much hits the nail on the head except for the assembly faff. I've tried all sorts of methods for putting it together but nothing is really easy, especially with cold hands. But I love the flat-pack and think hinges would be bound to push up the price and impact on the pack-ability and set-up versatility too much, although I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on these counts!
TBH I really only use mine for boiling water (either for drinks, or re-hydrating food, or occasionally heating a rat-pack or look-what-we-found type ready-meal) and usually use a crusader mug as a pot (I like that the HS fits in the issue pouch with crusader mug & bottle) but I have used a zebra pot although this is pushing it with the heat generated by the small fire contained within the Honey Stove. This is not an issue with a Trangia style spirit burner though or by using my Trangia gas burner insert so the HS takes the place of the Trangia windshield/pot-stand (because you can burn meths/gas OR wood in the HS but ONLY meths/gas with the Trangia).
Refuelling when burning wood isn't really a problem I feel. I tend to fuel up the stove by layering tinder (usually birch-bark) then smaller and then larger twigs until the stove is 3/4 full, I light it by 'squirting' a turbo-flame type lighter up through the holes in the bottom plate whilst holding the stove up, when it is burning I put it down and stand my pot/mug on top. It is then easy to keep feeding longer fuel in through the door. One can also drop fuel in the top if a couple of tent-pegs (or bicycle wheel spokes) are used to support the mug rather than the top-plate.
An ash pan is easily improvised with foil / foil pie-dish etc. and an additional windscreen can also easily be made from heavy-weight foil if required. These are cheap, light and compact solutions which users can add if they wish.
Want to move it whilst it is hot? Just poke a green stick through opposite pairs of the larger holes at the top as a quick handle, having first taken the pot off of course.
If fire-scar is a concern a similar technique can be employed but using 2 metal rods (more re-used spokes) instead of a green stick through the bottom holes to lift the stove up and support it between two green branches above the ground in a similar way to the Tentipi fire box (you can just make this out in ForestWalker's second photo). It can be a bit wobbly, but is not a problem if care is taken.
Stainless is good. I'd like the lighter Ti version but can't justify it given that I already own a S/S one. If I were buying now for the first time I'd save up and buy Ti.
For one person the HS is a good option, I'm not sure the Hive really does the job for two though (although as a BBQ it works OK).
If it ain't broke; don't fix it . . .
Just a quick thought about your 'simple grill' comment: http://www.purcelltrench.com/index.htm the Streamside Voyageurs Grill is wonderful quality, just a pain to order from the UK and rather expensive. I'm not suggesting a 'clone' but there is nothing as light and sturdy that I've seen this side of the pond. The Tentipi firebox is good too, but again too expensive for what it is.
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Does material matter? Aluminium or Stainless. Personally I would say Titanium, but then I am trying reduce my pack weight
Does final weight matter? Less than or more than a kilo Even if that's including the pots, I would say less than a kilo by a factor of 4. My current top of the shopping list option is the evernew solo set. The option of Esbit, meths and small wood is a key selling point of said stove set.
Does size matter (Oooo darling!)? As small as possible or big as a Frontier Stove It needs to be small, I love the crusader cooker, the fact that bottle + cup(pan) and cooker all nest nicely in the same belt pouch is a great plus. It's just rather heavy... and the bottle is plastic...
What type of cooking would you like to do? In a pot/pan, on a grill, on a hot plate I like to be able to cook up a stew in the evening, and fry up in the morning, I am searching for a decent titanium frying pan that can take a couple of rashers of bacon and some sausages without it being too tight a fit.
Ease of construction? Clip, hinged, separate parts Seperate parts risks losing a part at some stage. Anything you don't have to put together carefully with half frozen hands is a bonus.
Flexibilty with other stoves? Drop in Trangia or Coke Can Stove Being able to use a meths burner is a plus.
Flat pack or tubular? Ease of packing or fit inside some pot See previous point about nesting everything in a single pouch... I find myself wondering if the DX stand will nest round the outside of a Nalgene bottle...
Free standing? In built ash tray to prevent scarring on campsites Ability to not scorch the grass is always a bonus.
Height? Does it need to be below a certain height or above Stability, and the ability to cook in the porch of your average tent (cook safely in the porch on a vaude power lizard or vaude hogan for preference) suggest smaller rather than larger...
Woodgas or not? Adds a lot to manufacture and on small stoves seems no great advantage Ambivalence on this one.
Simplicity? What about a simple grill and nothing else. Can't get much simpler than that Depends on the versatility of it...
Hopefully that gives you something to be going on with.
I look on with interest at what you come up with, while I try to save up for the evernew solo set...
J
Does final weight matter? Less than or more than a kilo Even if that's including the pots, I would say less than a kilo by a factor of 4. My current top of the shopping list option is the evernew solo set. The option of Esbit, meths and small wood is a key selling point of said stove set.
Does size matter (Oooo darling!)? As small as possible or big as a Frontier Stove It needs to be small, I love the crusader cooker, the fact that bottle + cup(pan) and cooker all nest nicely in the same belt pouch is a great plus. It's just rather heavy... and the bottle is plastic...
What type of cooking would you like to do? In a pot/pan, on a grill, on a hot plate I like to be able to cook up a stew in the evening, and fry up in the morning, I am searching for a decent titanium frying pan that can take a couple of rashers of bacon and some sausages without it being too tight a fit.
Ease of construction? Clip, hinged, separate parts Seperate parts risks losing a part at some stage. Anything you don't have to put together carefully with half frozen hands is a bonus.
Flexibilty with other stoves? Drop in Trangia or Coke Can Stove Being able to use a meths burner is a plus.
Flat pack or tubular? Ease of packing or fit inside some pot See previous point about nesting everything in a single pouch... I find myself wondering if the DX stand will nest round the outside of a Nalgene bottle...
Free standing? In built ash tray to prevent scarring on campsites Ability to not scorch the grass is always a bonus.
Height? Does it need to be below a certain height or above Stability, and the ability to cook in the porch of your average tent (cook safely in the porch on a vaude power lizard or vaude hogan for preference) suggest smaller rather than larger...
Woodgas or not? Adds a lot to manufacture and on small stoves seems no great advantage Ambivalence on this one.
Simplicity? What about a simple grill and nothing else. Can't get much simpler than that Depends on the versatility of it...
Hopefully that gives you something to be going on with.
I look on with interest at what you come up with, while I try to save up for the evernew solo set...
J
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Just wanted to add an extra idea to my original post (#16):
You could extend the flat plate idea (possibly as an optional extra) with a chimney add on to completely enclose a hive extension - with perhaps a close-able front door panel - to create a wood burning tent heater/stove combo (my idea of a bigger hive would make this feasible).
Reading the posts on this thread, I don't think you need to redesign. The basic design was a good one - like I said almost right. I agree that wood gas, in my experience (I owned the original Bush Buddy and now use an Emberlit and a Honey) has negligible benefits ( a bigger fire box always wins). What is needed is some tweaking and expansion possibilities. The big flaw with the Honey is setting it up - hinge it and bite the bullet on cost - you'll reap the benefits both here and in the international market. Think of the competition - Emberlit, Evernew DX, Firebox, Bushbox, Vargo et al - then look at how you could expand the system to take on Kifaru, TiGoat, Four Dogs etc...and blow them all out of the water!
You could extend the flat plate idea (possibly as an optional extra) with a chimney add on to completely enclose a hive extension - with perhaps a close-able front door panel - to create a wood burning tent heater/stove combo (my idea of a bigger hive would make this feasible).
Reading the posts on this thread, I don't think you need to redesign. The basic design was a good one - like I said almost right. I agree that wood gas, in my experience (I owned the original Bush Buddy and now use an Emberlit and a Honey) has negligible benefits ( a bigger fire box always wins). What is needed is some tweaking and expansion possibilities. The big flaw with the Honey is setting it up - hinge it and bite the bullet on cost - you'll reap the benefits both here and in the international market. Think of the competition - Emberlit, Evernew DX, Firebox, Bushbox, Vargo et al - then look at how you could expand the system to take on Kifaru, TiGoat, Four Dogs etc...and blow them all out of the water!
I've always been a fan of the Honey since they first came out, I had many good trips with mine and often regret selling it on, in fact I've had a couple but I'm constantly trying new kit and tend to move stuff on to make room or justify the next purchase.
I remember the initial responses about it being difficult to assemble with cold hands, I did suffer this once or twice but it was never really a show stopper imho, maybe a thought would be to make the fitting less precise? I don't think it needs to be so snug to be able to work, in wood burning mode especially you're only trying to contain the fire to help direct the heat better. With the added weight of a pot and a half decent surface to place it on, it should be a stable unit.
Like others, I have bushy kit and I have lightweight backpacking kit, but pack weight does come into it for me and I choose a stove for a particular trip depending on where I'm going or how I'm travelling. In the last couple of years for shorter trips I've settled on a Bushbuddy Ultra and a meths stove with 4oz of fuel as backup, primarily burning wood if I know it's going to be available. The meths stoves chop and change but the Bushbuddy is hard to beat in my experience, fair enough it doesn't pack flat but it's scary light and out performs just a basic fire box hands down, it also fits in my Terra Nova ti pot, MSR Kettle or Snow Peak no problem. For longer trips such as the TGO I still prefer to go with gas and take my Jetboil Sol, I can manage 11L of boiling water from the little 100g carts which is enough to keep me going for five or six days. I never used my Honey with a meths burner, I've never owned an actual Trangia burner and my Tatonka always seemed a lump for what it was. Having the option to drop a burner in the Honey was good but you're only looking for a way of supporting a pot and getting some wind break, I think there's lighter alternatives for that.
One stove which appeals to me at the moment is the folding Firebox, it looks a good size on the vids I've seen but I've yet to see one in the flesh. I think because it's a little bit bigger than the other alternatives there's scope for using bigger fuel and less time breaking up wee twigs. I don't mind feeding a fire and it's half the fun sometimes I think.
I think you've cracked it with the Honey to be honest Bob, there are similar ideas out there but I don't think they're as adaptable. The Ti Honey is the one I want now but as with a lot of the ti gear it's spendy for what it is. I think when it came down to packing for a trip I'd still go for the weight and performance of the Bushbuddy.
Not sure if any of that helps, I've probably gone off on one as usual. Back to your questions ...
Does material matter? Aluminium or Stainless.
Stainless or titanium would be my preference, ally when it's hot becomes too soft and it would get wrecked in no time. I have seen Kelly kettles that look like golf balls
Does final weight matter? Less than or more than a kilo
Weight always matters for me but for others not so much, if you can offer woodgas performance at sub 140g then that beats my BB.
Does size matter (Oooo darling!)? As small as possible or big as a Frontier Stove
For base camping I pack hot tents and steel stoves in winter, but for backpacking I want it compact, either folding flat or fitting inside my pot.
What type of cooking would you like to do? In a pot/pan, on a grill, on a hot plate
90% of my meals are DIY dehydrated so it's just boiling water I need, the other 10% is usually a fry up
Ease of construction? Clip, hinged, separate parts
Simple clips/slots or hinges if the weight can be kept down
Flexibilty with other stoves? Drop in Trangia or Coke Can Stove
Always a bonus but again weight would be a consideration if using with a meths stove
Flat pack or tubular? Ease of packing or fit inside some pot
Either works for me
Free standing? In built ash tray to prevent scarring on campsites
I would prefer free standing, so it can be used in all conditions and ground coverings
Height? Does it need to be below a certain height or above
If it's flat pack then height wouldn't matter too much for me, I can always slot it in somewhere, if it's a circular construction then I'd want it to fit inside my pot.
Woodgas or not? Adds a lot to manufacture and on small stoves seems no great advantage
I prefer woodgas if possible, it's quicker, cleaner and actually less fussy about damp fuel once going.
Simplicity? What about a simple grill and nothing else. Can't get much simpler than that
I cook with pots or a Primus frying pan occasionally, I find it easier to cook that way than trying to establish embers to cook over.
I remember the initial responses about it being difficult to assemble with cold hands, I did suffer this once or twice but it was never really a show stopper imho, maybe a thought would be to make the fitting less precise? I don't think it needs to be so snug to be able to work, in wood burning mode especially you're only trying to contain the fire to help direct the heat better. With the added weight of a pot and a half decent surface to place it on, it should be a stable unit.
Like others, I have bushy kit and I have lightweight backpacking kit, but pack weight does come into it for me and I choose a stove for a particular trip depending on where I'm going or how I'm travelling. In the last couple of years for shorter trips I've settled on a Bushbuddy Ultra and a meths stove with 4oz of fuel as backup, primarily burning wood if I know it's going to be available. The meths stoves chop and change but the Bushbuddy is hard to beat in my experience, fair enough it doesn't pack flat but it's scary light and out performs just a basic fire box hands down, it also fits in my Terra Nova ti pot, MSR Kettle or Snow Peak no problem. For longer trips such as the TGO I still prefer to go with gas and take my Jetboil Sol, I can manage 11L of boiling water from the little 100g carts which is enough to keep me going for five or six days. I never used my Honey with a meths burner, I've never owned an actual Trangia burner and my Tatonka always seemed a lump for what it was. Having the option to drop a burner in the Honey was good but you're only looking for a way of supporting a pot and getting some wind break, I think there's lighter alternatives for that.
One stove which appeals to me at the moment is the folding Firebox, it looks a good size on the vids I've seen but I've yet to see one in the flesh. I think because it's a little bit bigger than the other alternatives there's scope for using bigger fuel and less time breaking up wee twigs. I don't mind feeding a fire and it's half the fun sometimes I think.
I think you've cracked it with the Honey to be honest Bob, there are similar ideas out there but I don't think they're as adaptable. The Ti Honey is the one I want now but as with a lot of the ti gear it's spendy for what it is. I think when it came down to packing for a trip I'd still go for the weight and performance of the Bushbuddy.
Not sure if any of that helps, I've probably gone off on one as usual. Back to your questions ...
Does material matter? Aluminium or Stainless.
Stainless or titanium would be my preference, ally when it's hot becomes too soft and it would get wrecked in no time. I have seen Kelly kettles that look like golf balls
Does final weight matter? Less than or more than a kilo
Weight always matters for me but for others not so much, if you can offer woodgas performance at sub 140g then that beats my BB.
Does size matter (Oooo darling!)? As small as possible or big as a Frontier Stove
For base camping I pack hot tents and steel stoves in winter, but for backpacking I want it compact, either folding flat or fitting inside my pot.
What type of cooking would you like to do? In a pot/pan, on a grill, on a hot plate
90% of my meals are DIY dehydrated so it's just boiling water I need, the other 10% is usually a fry up
Ease of construction? Clip, hinged, separate parts
Simple clips/slots or hinges if the weight can be kept down
Flexibilty with other stoves? Drop in Trangia or Coke Can Stove
Always a bonus but again weight would be a consideration if using with a meths stove
Flat pack or tubular? Ease of packing or fit inside some pot
Either works for me
Free standing? In built ash tray to prevent scarring on campsites
I would prefer free standing, so it can be used in all conditions and ground coverings
Height? Does it need to be below a certain height or above
If it's flat pack then height wouldn't matter too much for me, I can always slot it in somewhere, if it's a circular construction then I'd want it to fit inside my pot.
Woodgas or not? Adds a lot to manufacture and on small stoves seems no great advantage
I prefer woodgas if possible, it's quicker, cleaner and actually less fussy about damp fuel once going.
Simplicity? What about a simple grill and nothing else. Can't get much simpler than that
I cook with pots or a Primus frying pan occasionally, I find it easier to cook that way than trying to establish embers to cook over.
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Thanks everyone for your contributions here and I'm pleased to see that we are all thinking along the same lines about the 'needs and wants' of the different users.
Quite rightly several people here have mentioned 'bushcraft needs' v 'lightweight'. Two very different markets and those who are into lightweight desires understand that the more features, hinges and size options you bring into the design the more you sacrifice weight as a result.
The .5mm Titanium I use bloody expensive and the aim was to create functional and lightweight, specifically for those who wanted tough material which won't degrade and still be functional for many years. Thicker Ti is of course possible and there is a price / bulk penalty.
However manufacturing costs and abilities aside (finding UK manufacturers who can work in these thinner materials with small MOQ is in itself a major issue), lots of hinges, hot plates, chimneys and legs etc also start to place the potential item into the much heavier 'car camping' situation than I want to consider currently. Something grander maybe to look at later though.
So coming back to this project (thanks for the paper stove plans, v-interesting to add to the mix and thinking along the same lines) would I be correct in thinking we all consider the below elements to be key aspects for the Bushcraft and maybe Paddling user;
1) Flat pack / hinged easy to store
2) Fire pan or similar way of increased protection of grass etc
3) Ability to handle Crusader Cup as well normal pans and Mess Tins
4) Big enough firebox to ensure consistent cooking heat and larger pieces of fuel
5) Sturdy construction to take regular punishment
6) Ignore Wood Gas features
7) Accept slight weight penalty due to materials used, but still light enough to be practical to carry on a long trip
8) Expandability? Is this really important if the cooking area is big enough for 2 people? Beyond that you are getting into Frontier Stove territory surely?
Cost? Im sure everyone understands that the more folds, hinges, cuts and welds you put into a product the prices increases accordingly. The comment above which mentions the list of manufacturers Vargo etc, only one is non Asian made I think. I'm trying to make something here and be proud of it. After the QC issues I seen with those working with Asia, shipping fees and environment issues with the air miles, surely we should be able to do the whole process here and have something to suit the domestic UK user?
Re the Wilderness Stove (™ This was a product which was flying along last year until I hit what I thought to be a slight snag, which turned into a show stopper. After spending £2000+ on tooling costs, I am still trying to resolve the issue and have yet to do it cost effectively. Such a shame as everything is ready to go and it was money I could do without losing. However as the name is Trademarked I can apply it to whatever product I choose if I can't solve it this year.
But this exercise is good and thanks again for your input and suggestions. The closer I can get to getting it right first time the better for everyone.
Any other suggestions or thoughts on the above list?
Quite rightly several people here have mentioned 'bushcraft needs' v 'lightweight'. Two very different markets and those who are into lightweight desires understand that the more features, hinges and size options you bring into the design the more you sacrifice weight as a result.
The .5mm Titanium I use bloody expensive and the aim was to create functional and lightweight, specifically for those who wanted tough material which won't degrade and still be functional for many years. Thicker Ti is of course possible and there is a price / bulk penalty.
However manufacturing costs and abilities aside (finding UK manufacturers who can work in these thinner materials with small MOQ is in itself a major issue), lots of hinges, hot plates, chimneys and legs etc also start to place the potential item into the much heavier 'car camping' situation than I want to consider currently. Something grander maybe to look at later though.
So coming back to this project (thanks for the paper stove plans, v-interesting to add to the mix and thinking along the same lines) would I be correct in thinking we all consider the below elements to be key aspects for the Bushcraft and maybe Paddling user;
1) Flat pack / hinged easy to store
2) Fire pan or similar way of increased protection of grass etc
3) Ability to handle Crusader Cup as well normal pans and Mess Tins
4) Big enough firebox to ensure consistent cooking heat and larger pieces of fuel
5) Sturdy construction to take regular punishment
6) Ignore Wood Gas features
7) Accept slight weight penalty due to materials used, but still light enough to be practical to carry on a long trip
8) Expandability? Is this really important if the cooking area is big enough for 2 people? Beyond that you are getting into Frontier Stove territory surely?
Cost? Im sure everyone understands that the more folds, hinges, cuts and welds you put into a product the prices increases accordingly. The comment above which mentions the list of manufacturers Vargo etc, only one is non Asian made I think. I'm trying to make something here and be proud of it. After the QC issues I seen with those working with Asia, shipping fees and environment issues with the air miles, surely we should be able to do the whole process here and have something to suit the domestic UK user?
Re the Wilderness Stove (™
This was a product which was flying along last year until I hit what I thought to be a slight snag, which turned into a show stopper. After spending £2000+ on tooling costs, I am still trying to resolve the issue and have yet to do it cost effectively. Such a shame as everything is ready to go and it was money I could do without losing. However as the name is Trademarked I can apply it to whatever product I choose if I can't solve it this year.But this exercise is good and thanks again for your input and suggestions. The closer I can get to getting it right first time the better for everyone.
Any other suggestions or thoughts on the above list?
Same request here, I just ordered a woodgas stove in preference to the honey stove, it was a close call but the lack of having to fiddle with assembly is what swung it for me in the end....
Cheers, Paul
Woodgas appears to be the natural conbustion of wood intensified, the honey stove does this somewhat with a shielded firebox to incubate the heat. You could keep going to even higher levels of wood gas as seen in commercial biomass powerstations.
The weight issue - lightest jetboil burner and the smallest gas cannister come in at 320g, given that this will be mostly without fuel or burner, and people who buy this will not be sooooo picky, 500g as long as its worth it, is not even an ask. 50g for a Brass trangia and 500g for a bit of fuel isn't pushing the boundaries for me.
Also tell the chosen few more misteries of the Wilderness Stove.
The weight issue - lightest jetboil burner and the smallest gas cannister come in at 320g, given that this will be mostly without fuel or burner, and people who buy this will not be sooooo picky, 500g as long as its worth it, is not even an ask. 50g for a Brass trangia and 500g for a bit of fuel isn't pushing the boundaries for me.
Also tell the chosen few more misteries of the Wilderness Stove.
Been playing all day trying to design a new stove in the mean time this hinge/tab idea came to me, it's a little bit unclear from the drawing but I think it would work with some precision placed drilled holes and shaping of the tabs to allow a little tension to hold the coal grate in place while you assemble the rest of the stove.
The Hive addition would need consideration when deciding where the holes need to be and the shapes of the tabs.
The pins would be pushed from below through new holes in the coal grate and then through the tabs on each panel.
The tabs are also placed at the width of the panels so that the extra height that the tabs added to a flat panel can be lost when the panels are stacked in a particular way at 90 degrees to each other. so hopefully it will only add approx 2mm-4mm to the flat packed height. This is where some experimentation would need to be done to find the best heights and position of the tabs.
If the scorch plate was ever added to the stove maybe a groove could hold the pins 90 degree end. If the stove would need to be raised, an angle could be bent into the pins like drawing alternative pin design. Depending where the pin was turned in its panel locating position could raise the stove that set amount.
The pins are all the same and the existing holes can be used to locate the pins as a pot stand. These can then be easily moved depending on the amount of fire below. hopefully the pins would add rigidity which would allow modification of the feed door so that the top section is open allowing handles to sit free.
I haven't got materials to make a working concept, but the pins dimension seems to be strong enough at 2.3mm stainless rod so the hole in each tab could be as small as possible approx. 2.5mm I think.
here's some drawings, excuse the crapness of them,
With this possibility the honey stove design and dimensions are still retained but hopefully with less fiddle and less machining processes. Adding the pins like the picture of my honey stove gives more flexibility at anytime and less need for a top grate. If the grill, as mentioned, could be added and rests on top it takes away the need for additional top slot grates.
The Hive addition would need consideration when deciding where the holes need to be and the shapes of the tabs.
The pins would be pushed from below through new holes in the coal grate and then through the tabs on each panel.
The tabs are also placed at the width of the panels so that the extra height that the tabs added to a flat panel can be lost when the panels are stacked in a particular way at 90 degrees to each other. so hopefully it will only add approx 2mm-4mm to the flat packed height. This is where some experimentation would need to be done to find the best heights and position of the tabs.
If the scorch plate was ever added to the stove maybe a groove could hold the pins 90 degree end. If the stove would need to be raised, an angle could be bent into the pins like drawing alternative pin design. Depending where the pin was turned in its panel locating position could raise the stove that set amount.
The pins are all the same and the existing holes can be used to locate the pins as a pot stand. These can then be easily moved depending on the amount of fire below. hopefully the pins would add rigidity which would allow modification of the feed door so that the top section is open allowing handles to sit free.
I haven't got materials to make a working concept, but the pins dimension seems to be strong enough at 2.3mm stainless rod so the hole in each tab could be as small as possible approx. 2.5mm I think.
here's some drawings, excuse the crapness of them,
With this possibility the honey stove design and dimensions are still retained but hopefully with less fiddle and less machining processes. Adding the pins like the picture of my honey stove gives more flexibility at anytime and less need for a top grate. If the grill, as mentioned, could be added and rests on top it takes away the need for additional top slot grates.
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I wanted to add, hats off to bob for getting the honey stove to market at all, My brain is mush trying to figure out a similar brilliant design and product. Well done.
widu13
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Looking good, but personally I don't want or need a fire pan- I have yet to go ANYWHERE where I cannot find a suitable spot to set up or make a scrape for a burner. Perhaps the design could have an optional fire pan to save weight, size and cost. Similarly an expansion for more than 2 (like the hive concept) could be a later purchase. You could leave the development of the expansion on the back burner (sorry
) and reap the benefits from increased sales at a later time.As said, I would entertain a system slightly heavier than a JB but not much more. My lightweight is about 12kg, which I realise is more than you carry and I don't want to add much to that!
